Mewtwos Issues In Depth.

[GNASTYGNORK]

Made a video talking about all the issues I have with, i understand its a benign conversation, but imo people have a misconception about what his actual issues are. Whether you have something positive or negative to say is fine with me, I wouldlike to hear peoples thoughts regardless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWzTtHRcKs8

 

[Browny]

I thought that was a really good video. In many ways it was a lot more interesting than gameplay footage with people talking over the top of it.

I'm also glad that other people out there agree that his weight isnt an issue and that if he was a heavyweight he would be kind of ridiculous. Heavyweights normally have a disadvantage of no projectile, bad recovery and fast falling combo food.

However I don't agree with what you say about confusion. In exactly the same way you say he would be OP if he was heavy, if confusion was a combo starter that would be just way too strong. If confusion combo'd into anything, it would be fair or usmash. The ability to do like 22% or kill confirm at around 80% on midweights off a long-range command grab would be far too much.

Of course bowsers sideb is pretty much that, but he needs that as a landing option to deal with shield otherwise he would literally never land.

Confusion serves its purpose as a reflector, a mid-air hop and a command grab. If it combod into anything it would easily be the best move in the game by a significant margin. Just imagine if any other character suddenly got access to all four of those moves in one.

 

[EarthBound18]

I thought that was a really good video. In many ways it was a lot more interesting than gameplay footage with people talking over the top of it.

I'm also glad that other people out there agree that his weight isnt an issue and that if he was a heavyweight he would be kind of ridiculous. Heavyweights normally have a disadvantage of no projectile, bad recovery and fast falling combo food.

However I don't agree with what you say about confusion. In exactly the same way you say he would be OP if he was heavy, if confusion was a combo starter that would be just way too strong. If confusion combo'd into anything, it would be fair or usmash. The ability to do like 22% or kill confirm at around 80% on midweights off a long-range command grab would be far too much.

Of course bowsers sideb is pretty much that, but he needs that as a landing option to deal with shield otherwise he would literally never land.

Confusion serves its purpose as a reflector, a mid-air hop and a command grab. If it combod into anything it would easily be the best move in the game by a significant margin. Just imagine if any other character suddenly got access to all four of those moves in one.

ZSS can kill heavyweights at 40 with Up Air Strings,Up B, it is not too much.

 

[GNASTYGNORK]

I thought that was a really good video. In many ways it was a lot more interesting than gameplay footage with people talking over the top of it.

I'm also glad that other people out there agree that his weight isnt an issue and that if he was a heavyweight he would be kind of ridiculous. Heavyweights normally have a disadvantage of no projectile, bad recovery and fast falling combo food.

However I don't agree with what you say about confusion. In exactly the same way you say he would be OP if he was heavy, if confusion was a combo starter that would be just way too strong. If confusion combo'd into anything, it would be fair or usmash. The ability to do like 22% or kill confirm at around 80% on midweights off a long-range command grab would be far too much.

Of course bowsers sideb is pretty much that, but he needs that as a landing option to deal with shield otherwise he would literally never land.

Confusion serves its purpose as a reflector, a mid-air hop and a command grab. If it combod into anything it would easily be the best move in the game by a significant margin. Just imagine if any other character suddenly got access to all four of those moves in one.

Thanks a lot. Yeah upon watching the video when i finished editing it i realized i didnt make the confusion part 100% clear even to myself. I agree with your thoughts on confusion. What i meant to say was in terms of Confusion being efficient in its reflective properties and lacking in its properties of starting a combo should be even more of a reason for his down throw to be a little better. I didnt feel like fixing that part cause it was like 5 am when i finally finished editing after the software crashed toward the end. Thanks though. Yeah his weight is not a problem like I said in the video and im also glad other ppl feel the saem way as me. I would like for all of the Mewtwo fans to logically agree on his issues and then complain about them so nintendo can fix them. He recently got buffed but none of his buffs were good. Side throw doing more damage and little things like that imo are benign to his real problems.

 

[Browny]

I think the fthrow buff was good, to me it is equivalent to him getting a weight boost when you look at it this way;

When coming up against Marios usmash, the difference between Mewtwo dying to it and Mario himself is about 18%. (Mewtwo dies at 102%, mario at 120% I jest tested it what a guess lol). It's fair to suggest that in any given stock a character is going to get grabbed say, 3-4 times.

If Mewtwo uses fthrow as his damage-racking throw, he does 47% (including staling) while if he goes for his next best option which would be 1 uthrow, 3x bthrow to not stale the uthrow, that does 40%. So he has gained 7% extra on the enemy for free.

I look at smash bros like this;

Outside of time outs, the game has only one win condition; you take the enemies stocks before they take theirs. I dont care how early a character can KO, what their weight is, combos or anything. Everything combined including all the frame data and playstyle optimisation leads to one single factor which is was the the likelihood of character A taking 2/3 stocks before character B does.

When Mewtwo gains 7% extra for free every stock it makes his ability to take the enemies stocks sooner. This is a very big deal in a race to get 2/3 first.

If Mewtwo was given a buff such that he now survives 7% longer, people would obviously be happy about that, its a buff. Now what if for example Mario got nerfed to now die 7% earlier? Thats clearly a nerf. Yet, isn't this literally the exact same thing as Mewtwo KO'ing 7% earlier and by extension, the exact same thing as Mario reaching KO% 7% earlier than normal as he took that much extra damage for free?

Since Mewtwo can apply this to every matchup, that extra ~7% per stock directly affects the likelihood in Mewtwo taking the stock first because the enemy now reaches KO range sooner. Remembering that I don't care at what % mewtwo dies, I only care about him taking 2/3 stocks before the enemy does. Again, this is literally the exact same as receiving a weight buff which would make Mewtwo reach KO % later. Whether it is Mewtwo dying later or killing earlier it is the same sort of buff.

To me, that buff is the equivalent of putting him above sheiks weight tier.

I agree the buff isn't addressing his bigger problems, but I ride that fthrow buff as far as it takes me.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think that if they were to give him a combo throw, he would be OP. Think about it, each of his aerials does 11 plus damage and combo into each other. At the very least, one throw would combo int 20% and at the most, 40% while compared to some characters that is pretty tame, but considering that Mewtwo has true combos that kill, it is a bit too much. He has his Dtil and Utilt. It would be nice if the hit boxes were fixed a bit but that doesn't really matter. We were just on the topic of throws so I thought I might as well give my input.

Plus, if Dtrow combo'd into fair, you could deal an easy 45%

 

[LRodC]

I think that if they were to give him a combo throw, he would be OP. Think about it, each of his aerials does 11 plus damage and combo into each other. At the very least, one throw would combo int 20% and at the most, 40% while compared to some characters that is pretty tame, but considering that Mewtwo has true combos that kill, it is a bit too much. He has his Dtil and Utilt. It would be nice if the hit boxes were fixed a bit but that doesn't really matter. We were just on the topic of throws so I thought I might as well give my input.

Plus, if Dtrow combo'd into fair, you could deal an easy 45%

They could just have more scaling knockback on the throw so that it's not so OP at high percentages, kind of like how Charizard's is.

Anyway, excellent job on the video @ GNASTYGNORK . I agree with you on a lot of things you said, especially the weight part (I do like down smash though! It's forward smash I don't like). I think we're doing a great job of compiling Mewtwo's issues. I'll do whatever I can to give it more exposure. Nice seeing someone else from Philly as well.

 

[RayNoire]

Yeah, nice video. I agree with most of it.

His biggest problem is his hurtbox, though. The things that hit him, especially in the air or coming off the ledge, blow my mind even after it happens hundreds of times.

Even if he gets every single other buff, he'll never be viable as long as his hurtbox is twice as wide as everyone else's.

He's just an unfinished product. Hopefully they get around to finishing him soon.

 

[LRodC]

Yeah, nice video. I agree with most of it.

His biggest problem is his hurtbox, though. The things that hit him, especially in the air or coming off the ledge, blow my mind even after it happens hundreds of times.

Even if he gets every single other buff, he'll never be viable as long as his hurtbox is twice as wide as everyone else's.

He's just an unfinished product. Hopefully they get around to finishing him soon.

Can you go into more detail? I'm actually curious to know how his hurtbox is so bad. It's not small by any means, but it doesn't seem bugged or inaccurate or anything like that. I tried testing on his standing model and that seemed fine to me. His legs are wide, but that's just how it is. Rosalina, Ganondorf, DK, and Bowser have larger hurtboxes, and most tall characters have similar ones. And for his tail attacks, his hurtbox expands, but only across 60% of the tail. Is that what you're referring to?

 

[Browny]

I was actually about to make a thread dispelling the myths of his hurtbox being so big because I'm downright sick of the misconceptions, I spent some time yesterday getting a whole bunch of screenshots proving that his hurtbox not some gigantic thing and infact, most of his tail is intangible.

This is easy stuff to recreate just gimme an hour. This will prove it beyond any and all doubt where his hurtbox is.

 

[RayNoire]

Can you go into more detail? I'm actually curious to know how his hurtbox is so bad. It's not small by any means, but it doesn't seem bugged or inaccurate or anything like that. I tried testing on his standing model and that seemed fine to me. His legs are wide, but that's just how it is. Rosalina, Ganondorf, DK, and Bowser have larger hurtboxes, and most tall characters have similar ones. And for his tail attacks, his hurtbox expands, but only across 60% of the tail. Is that what you're referring to?

His hurtbox extends a mile behind him, ostensibly to cover his tail (Charizard's tail is intangible though hurrr), but it actually goes farther even than that. It's really noticeable on SH cross-ups, ledge rolls, ledge jumps (damn our ledge game is bad lol), and backwards tech rolls. On the ground it lines up with his tail more but is still incredibly awkward and noticeable when dashing back or in certain cross-up situations (Like the dash attack Vine I posted a while ago).

 

[Browny]

Ray you're going to have to rethink everything you think you know about Mewtwos hurtbox once I post this thread, you really have no idea.

 

[MockRock]

My thoughts on this: The hitbox changes are an absolute no-brainer. I feel like Mewtwo may have been rushed out the door as the first DLC character, and therefore his fine details weren't highly polished. That really, really needs to be fixed, and I don't understand why it still hasn't; it's not like changing hitboxes is a massive amount of effort. Bair looks like an excellent spacing tool when watching it, but it takes about 30 seconds playing with Mewtwo to realize that it's not.

It's the same with Teleport; this thing needs to cling to the stage far better than it does, and while less essential, I think it should gain intangibility the instant you do the input. It has no offensive purpose, meaning that it should therefore have excellent recovery properties.

Beyond that, we get into really subjective territory. I'd personally like to see his kill moves become more powerful, as his "glass cannon" status is a whole lot of glass and not much cannon right now. Charizard has pretty much as good a kill throw as Mewtwo does; arguably better. But additional buffs (not even really buffs, just consistency fixes) are up for debate. The points above are not.

 

[Browny]

Charizard has pretty much as good a kill throw as Mewtwo does; arguably better.

Not really, You can DI Charizards uthrow really hard down-diagonal to survive a lot longer and in fact, Mewtwos uthrow actually kills earlier on the stage, that Charizards does landing on smashvilles platform. On stage it kills about 20% earlier.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Eh no Charizard can get rage and easily fish for up throw.

And let's not forget the dragon rush bthrow nonsense.

 

[Browny]

Eh no Charizard can get rage and easily fish for up throw.

And let's not forget the dragon rush bthrow nonsense.

No.

Charizard has a much better grab to get the upthrow, but his upthrow is not better. Even with rage, it is still decently weaker than mewtwos upthrow. Mewtwos upthrow kills Mario at 111% at 100 rage with full DI. At 100 rage Charizards kills at... wait for it... 132%.

at 150 rage, charizard kills at around 117%. Mewtwo kills at 116% with only 80 rage.

No one is suggesting that falcon has the best throws in the game despite having arguably the easiest time getting grabs. Same principle here.

 

[LRodC]

In terms of the pure throw, Mewtwo may have a better one when considering DI. However, I think Charizard has more advantages with his, and this is why:

1. Charizard accumulates rage and can stay in rage way easier than Mewtwo can due to weight and super armor
2. Charizard has a much easier time grabbing the opponent
3. Charizard's can go on top of platforms, killing earlier than Mewtwo's even with DI

So although Mewtwo's throw might not be DIable or kill a little earlier than Charizard's, I think Charizard can take advantage of his kill throw better just for these 3 factors.

 

[Browny]

Did I not just say that Mewtwo kills earlier from the stage than charizard does landing on a platform? Or that Mewtwo at 80 rage has a stronger kill throw than charizard at 150?

Yes Charizard can land grabs easier, but your points 1 and 3 are negated by the fact that Mewtwos upthrow is THAT much stronger than charizards.

The only time Charizard has an advantage is if he is at a much higher rage level and landing on a platform, that scenario is too uncommon to make up for the majority of the time where Mewtwo has the upper hand in throw KOs.

 

[MagiusNecros]

At 150. Which I have had Charizard kill for less.

 

[Browny]

Then their DI is bad. You can DI his uthrow to the side so hard that with proper DI it kills 26% later.