Mewtwo vs Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Mumbo]

Mewtwo
This is the third of a series of threads, each dedicated to a single matchup, covering all 41(+) matchups. These threads are going to be a collaboration, so PLEASE give me your thoughts and opinions. Post your videos here, even if you lose. Post your preferred stages, even if people think otherwise. Post your tips, even if you think you aren't the best player.
I. Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4WDt2Bna94 Buzz v. Emukiller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJiFSCmXyUY Raptor v. Youngster Joey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mME7Td3UhvU Calm v. Youngster Joey

II. Overview:
Teleport = Mewtwo's up-b/recovery; Float = Mewtwo's hover ability; Confusion = Mewtwo's Side-b/Command Grab; Disable = Mewtwo's Down-b/Stun
Mewtwo's Strengths:

• Crazy movement
• Crazy grab range
• Great Command Grab
• Excellent follow ups off of grabs
• Fast Followups in general
• Great gimp and combo potential
• Insane Recovery
• Far rolls
• Heavy means hard to kill and great crouch cancel

Mewtwo's Weaknesses:

• Has to commit to follow ups
• Slow jumps, aerial speed, and horizontal movement
• Teleport is the only way to approach quickly
• Teleport has a set distance (unless used into the ground)
  • If it is used into the ground, you can punish
• Tail has a noticeable extended hurtbox

Key Points:

• DON'T LET YOUR JUMP GO UNNECESSARILY
• TAIL HAS A HURTBOX
• Use Grab Parry to avoid Grabs and Command Grabs
• Know the spacing of teleport
• Armor eats every hit of Nair

III. Matchup Analysis:
Neutral Game:

• Teleport reads are very important. Most good Mewtwos will try to teleport behind or on you and throw out a move; if you put out a Nair or really any aerial before he completes the teleport you will win every time
• Always be aware of the distance that is Mewtwo's teleport range and when you're inside the teleport range, know his tail range
• Mewtwo has a hard time breaking jump armor, but since Mewtwo's punishes on Yoshi without his jump are so devastating, DJC aerials are for the most part not worth
• Yoshi's grab is unique in PM, it has properties like an actual attack but it grabs. This means that you can grab opponents that are in the air. If Mewtwo wants to hover at you low, you can grab him and tank whatever with grab armor.
• Aim to grab him before he hits the ground.
• Sitting in shield near Mewtwo is unsafe, even if you just parried. Nair him away and get in the butter zone inside his teleport range and just outside of his tail range.
• Download the player, figure out what they like to do as far as rolling, approaching or if they like to camp and how they punish approaches.
• If you are around or above 100%, Mewtwo will be pushing to get grabs to kill off of the top with upthrow. Despite being heavy, Yoshi is floaty, so these upthrows will kill

Comboing/Punishing Mewtwo:

• If you want to punish after blocking, do an OoS SHORTHOP Nair. Not a DJC, a shorthop. This covers more area and lets you keep the hitbox out longer and you can throw 2 out in one shorthop if you're doing the first instantly on jump. The reasoning for doing a shorthop Nair instead of a DJC is that you can change your position safely doing a shorthop. If you feel too much pressure, you can hold away after the Nair to relieve it. If you want to apply pressure, fake like you're going to go over Mewtwo with your Nair and force him to roll or react.
• Parry is a big tool for Yoshi in this MU, mewtwo wants you close for tail shenanigans, but he'll try for grabs because he'll think it's free. Parry--> sheild grab is what you want most Parry--->Nair is safe
• Grabs will get you far in this MU, why? Because TAIL HAS A HURTBOX. On top of that, Mewtwo's animation for hitstun ends with his tumble, starting with his tail underneath him.
• Early Upthrows lead to a free Upair if he doesn't DI and a free Fair or weak Nair if he DI's away.
  • If he DI's away, you have to be quick in following up or you'll eat a fair. If on occasion you're not fast enough, Fair has a small disjoint at the tip of the nose/eyes. Spacing for that is hard, but if you want the followup after being too slow, it's either that to keep pressure or giving pressure up by throwing out an early Nair and hitting sour.
  • If you can get a this around 20~% you can do a rising Upair combo on him for extra %
• Goal is to get Mewtwo to 90-115% (stage dependent) and get a grab to Upair. It's much easier than you think because of the Tail Hurtbox. Remember the tumble/hitstun animation mentioned above? The tail is underneath Mewtwo at the back end of the animation, aim your Upair for the middle of the tail and he's hit and dead
  • If he DI's away, just follow with a weak Nair, that will kill around 160-180%
  • Don't worry about the specific percent of the Downthrow Upair, it stays true until 190%, but then a raw Nair will kill anyways
• Do NOT try to follow up a down throw with a fair. Mewtwo can DI the throw away and get you with a retreating shadow claw 10 times out of 10 UNLESS you space extremely precisely (not worth) go for a sourspot nair instead

Escaping Mewtwo's Pressure and Combos:

• Use your jump to get out of combos, but only when it is safe
• If Mewtwo starts reaching to kill you off the top, use a Yoshi bomb (down b). It has ridiculous kill power and has good priority against Mewtwo's tail.
  • Disjoints on upair or uptilt may beat it. If you hit slightly after the tip passes, you will win

Edgeguarding Mewtwo

• Don't Go off stage unless you know you can keep your jump (follow instincts on this)
• Eggs will be the key to edgeguarding. Yes Mewtwo can make it back without teleport alot, but the idea is to force him to. using eggs will pressure him into using it.
  • Snipe far away, pressure close
    • If he's far away, aim to hit him or to place the egg in front of him
    • If he's middle-close, place the egg the ledge, in front of him, or somewhere in-between
  • This will make the mewtwo teleport. Most will aim for just getting on stage, if this is the case, they can either teleport right on you, barely above you or a shorthop distance above you. If they're closer, they WILL go behind you, use your judgement to read which one they'll go for as far as aggressiveness goes. The more times you force the situation, the better judgments you can make.
  • Mewtwo may teleport to the ledge, that's ok too
    • here you want to cover options.
    • Shorthop Nair and fastfall L cancel. Do this a moment before their ledge invincibility goes away. Doing this covers 3 options, the FF DJ back to stage, the getup attack, and the ledge jump.
  • If Mewtwo decides to Teleport ledge-stall to intimidate you, don't worry, he can't do anything out of it but teleport or jump slowly out of it.
    • If you wanna go aggro, go grab the ledge from him.
    • If you wanna play smart, treat it like he's standing on the tip of the stage and go to the "outside tail, inside teleport" range
    • Smart lets you still do the Shothop Nair.
• Use eggs, use eggs, use eggs.

Recovering against Mewtwo:

• Mewtwo can grab ledge extremely fast, even from center stage. If you do go for ledge, always keep in mind that you can airdodge back to stage in the event that he teleports
• Almost every Mewtwo will jump out with some backairs. If you can't armor through it, Go below or above it. Remember that mewtwo only has good mobility because of teleport. If he comes out with backairs, he can only go at a low-upwards slant towards you or a straight line out at you. Jump over it, or fall under it. If he wants to follow those, Eggroll goes faster than his fallspeed and armor will eat his response to a low follow.

IV. Stages
Ultimately, Stage striking, banning, and Counterpicking comes down to personal preference. People will also have conflicting opinions as to which stages are better or worse for certain matchups. Use this as a rough baseline, understand the reasons why each stage may help hurt a particular character, and learn what your opponent might want to ban/counterpick against you. Different Tournaments use different stage lists with different sets of starters and different amounts of stage bans.
Counterpicks:

• WarioWare
  • ++ Counterpick
  • Mewtwo does not like small stages

Even:
BAN:
V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:

• Burn your jump too quickly! Mewtwo can carry a helpless Yoshi anywhere he pleases while racking up huge %s

Do:

• Crouch cancel the tail and retaliate
• Remember the butter zone that is outside of Mewtwo's tail range and inside of Mewtwo's Teleport range

Tricks:

• You can hit the tail's hurtbox after crouch cancelling

Tips:

Guide Contributors:
@ Mumbo
@ TomBoComBo
@ Damp

 

[Mumbo]

I don't know this matchup too well, as I've only played it a few times, but the few times I've played it have been against Master Raven and Prof. In fact, I listed WarioWare as a good counterpick in this matchup because I beat Master Raven on that stage despite him being significantly better than me. He told me he really doesn't think small stages are good for Mewtwo and that WarioWare is probably his worst stage. One thing I have learned, however, is your jump is super important. Mewtwo combos/carries Jumpless Yoshi harder than any other character in the game.

@ TomBoComBo

 

[Master Raven]

I think Warioware is bad but I think Yoshi's Story is actually one of his best stages now (2nd to Battlefield imo). Mewtwo heavily favors tri platform stages. I'm not even sure if Warioware is that bad but I always do bad on that stage every time so I can't tell if it's just me or if the stage is legitimately bad for Mewtwo.

 

[Mumbo]

I think Warioware is bad but I think Yoshi's Story is actually one of his best stages now (2nd to Battlefield imo). Mewtwo heavily favors tri platform stages. I'm not even sure if Warioware is that bad but I always do bad on that stage every time so I can't tell if it's just me or if the stage is legitimately bad for Mewtwo.

Would you still ban FoD against Yoshi for your second ban?

 

[Master Raven]

depends on the stagelist. I would prob ban it but I wouldn't mind playing Yoshi there.

 

[Damp]

Basically if you play against mewtwo, you better be more skilled than your opponent. I played against Emukiller last weekend in some friendlies. It was rough. Mewtwo can even grab you from behind because of how fat Yoshi is. He has more range, better movement with his teleport, and his grabs are ridiculous. So pretty much just be better than the mewtwo to win.

 

[-Maddox-]

Look out when going for dthrow -> uair, you can get it sometimes but if mewtwo DI's the throw correctly he can punish you with a forward air, make sure you're directly under him and not to the side when going for uair.

I honestly think this match up is pretty bad. Play patiently.

 

[-Maddox-]

Accidental double post.

 

[-Maddox-]

Accidental triple post.

 

[TomBoComBo]

As always Mumbo, I'll just add points that you don't have and delete the ones you do unless I have to correct or change one

II. Overview:
Teleport = Mewtwo's up-b/recovery; Float = Mewtwo's hover ability
Mewtwo's Strengths:

• Great mobility
• great command grab
• Fast followups
• very far rolls

Mewtwo's Weaknesses:

• Commitment to followups
• Slow jumps aerial speed and horizontal movement is slow
• UpB is only way to approach quickly
• Teleport has a set distance unless used into the ground
  • if he grounds is, it's a free punish
• Tail has a noticeable extended hurtbox <-----------------------

Key Points:

• Use grab parry to parry grabs and parry command grabs
• know the spacing of teleport
• armor will eat every hit of Nair if you're patient
• TAIL HAS A HURTBOX

III. Matchup Analysis:
Neutral Game:

• Teleport reads are everything (Important, not everything). Most good Mewtwos will try to teleport behind or on you and throw out a move; if you put out a Nair or really any aerial before he completes the teleport you will win every time
• Always be aware of the distance that is Mewtwo's teleport range and when you're inside the teleport range, know his tail range
• Don't DJC aerial, it's not worth the risk IMO.
• Yoshi's grab is unique in PM, it has properties like an actual attack but it grabs. This means that you can grab opponents that are in the air. If Mewtwo wants to hover at you low, you can grab him and tank whatever with grab armor.
• aim to grab him before he hits the ground.
• sitting in shield near Mewtwo is unsafe, even if you just parried. Nair him away and get in the butter zone inside his teleport range and just outside of his tail range.
• Download the player, figure out what they like to do as far as rolling, approaching or if they like to camp and how they punish approaches.

Comboing/Punishing Mewtwo:

• If you want to punish after blocking, do an OoS SHORTHOP Nair. Not a DJC, a shorthop. This covers more area and lets you keep the hitbox out longer and you can throw 2 out in one shorthop if you're doing the first instantly on jump. The reasoning for doing a shorthop Nair instead of a DJC is that you can change your position safely doing a shorthop. If you feel too much pressure, you can hold away after the Nair to relieve it. If you want to apply pressure, fake like you're going to go over Mewtwo with your Nair and force him to roll or react.
• Parry is a big tool for Yoshi in this MU, mewtwo wants you close for tail shenanigans, but he'll try for grabs because he'll think it's free. Parry--> sheild grab is what you want most Parry--->Nair is safe
• Grabs will get you far in this MU, why? Because TAIL HAS A HURTBOX. On top of that, Mewtwo's animation for hitstun ends with his tumble, starting with his tail underneath him.
• Early Upthrows lead to a free Upair if he doesn't DI and a free Fair or weak Nair if he DI's away.
  • If he DI's away, you have to be quick in following up or you'll eat a fair. If on occasion you're not fast enough, Fair has a small disjoint at the tip of the nose/eyes. Spacing for that is hard, but if you want the followup after being too slow, it's either that to keep pressure or giving pressure up by throwing out an early Nair and hitting sour.
  • If you can get a this around 20~% you can do a rising Upair combo on him for extra %
• Goal is to get Mewtwo to 90-115% (stage dependent) and get a grab to Upair. It's much easier than you think because of the Tail Hurtbox. Remember the tumble/hitstun animation mentioned above? The tail is underneath Mewtwo at the back end of the animation, aim your Upair for the middle of the tail and he's hit and dead
  • If he DI's away, just follow with a weak Nair, that will kill around 160-180%
  • Don't worry about the specific percent of the Downthrow Upair, it stays true until 190%, but my then a raw Nair will kill anyways

Escaping Mewtwo's Pressure and Combos:

• I wouldn't say don't burn your jump, but think about what you can do by jumping and think about how safe it is to do so. DJC aerials are not necessary in this Matchup, patience is
• If Mewtwo starts reaching to kill you off the top, use a Yoshi bomb (down b). It has ridiculous kill power and has good priority against Mewtwo's tail. (yes and no)
  • uptilt's disjoint will get you as well as upair. but if you hit slightly after the tail tip passes, you'll hit the tail's hurtbox.
  • a good mewtwo will push for a grab to Upthrow kill around 100%+ (stage dependent) so the real goal is to avoid that, not upwards mewtwo combos (Djarmor will get you out of those)

Edgeguarding Mewtwo:

• Don't
• Don't Go off stage unless you know you can keep your jump (follow instincts on this)
• Eggs will be the key to edgeguarding. Yes Mewtwo can make it back without teleport alot, but the idea is to force him to. using eggs will pressure him into using it.
  • Snipe far away, pressure close
    • If he's far away, aim to hit him or to place the egg in front of him
    • If he's middle-close, place the egg the ledge, in front of him, or somewhere in-between
  • This will make the mewtwo teleport. Most will aim for just getting on stage, if this is the case, they can either teleport right on you, barely above you or a shorthop distance above you. If they're closer, they WILL go behind you, use your judgement to read which one they'll go for as far as aggressiveness goes. The more times you force the situation, the better judgments you can make.
  • Mewtwo may teleport to the ledge, that's ok too
    • here you want to cover options.
    • Shorthop Nair and fastfall L cancel. Do this a moment before their ledge invincibility goes away. Doing this covers 3 options, the FF DJ back to stage, the getup attack, and the ledge jump.
  • If Mewtwo decides to Teleport ledge-stall to intimidate you, don't worry, he can't do anything out of it but teleport or jump slowly out of it.
    • If you wanna go aggro, go grab the ledge from him.
    • If you wanna play smart, treat it like he's standing on the tip of the stage and go to the "outside tail, inside teleport" range
    • Smart lets you still do the Shothop Nair.
• Use eggs, use eggs, use eggs.

Recovering against Mewtwo:

• Mewtwo can grab ledge extremely fast, even from center stage. If you go for the ledge and see him teleport, airdodge up onto the stage.
• A lot almost all Mewtwos will jump out with some backairs. If you can't armor through it, Go below or above it. Remember that mewtwo only has good mobility because of teleport. If he comes out with backairs, he can only go at a low-upwards slant towards you or a straight line out at you. Jump over it, or fall under it. If he wants to follow those, Eggroll goes faster than his fallspeed and armor will eat his response to a low follow. Maybe go for a ballsy egglay and hope you get back to stage? I would put more lines through this if I could lol

IV. Stages

• Final Destination
  • + Counterpick/Even
  • Your mental game vs his, no bull, no janky ledges or stupid stuff
  • Low ceiling
• Dreamland
  • Even/Ban
  • - platforms help Mewtwo more than Yoshi thanks to height
  • + space to grab him out of the air
• Green Hill Zone
  • Strike/Ban
  • - close blast zones horizontally
  • - swinging platform helps Mewtwo more than Yoshi
• Fountain of Dreams
  • Even/Ban
  • - Lots of creative ways that mewtwo can use the platforms to his advantage
  • + interesting and speedy movement options
• Wario Ware
  • + Counterpick/Even
  • Platforms help both players
  • + Platforms only help Yoshi to kill upwards
  • - close blast zones

• Battlefield
  • Even

• Dracula's Castle
  • Even
  • Mewtwo won't pick it, the platforms are an annoyance to both him and you
• Pokemon Stadium 2
  • Even
  • Watch out for him camping under platforms because it's a sign that he's ready to teleport in on you or away from you

• Yoshi's Story
  • Even
  • Yoshi can kill faster on this stage but Mewtwo has many options to kill

• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
  • +Counterpick
  • Platform helps Yoshi out more
  • Steve and Rodney (the names my community has given the ghost platforms) help Yoshi far more than Mewtwo

• Skyworld
  • +Counterpick/Even
  • hanging platforms actually limit recovery options so it's easier to read teleport (somewhat)

• Smashville
  • Even
  • Fair stage

• Lylat Cruise
  • - Leave be
  • Very unlikely Mewtwo will pick it
  • Not a good stage for either
• Pokemon Stadium 1
  • Even (if legal)

???:

• Distant Planet
  • Rarely Legal
• Metal Cavern
  • Rarely Legal

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:

• Burn your jump too quickly! Mewtwo can carry a helpless Yoshi anywhere he pleases while racking up huge %s

Do:

• Memorize the butter zone where you're inside teleport range and outside tail range.
• learn what your opponent likes to do
• CC The tail

Tricks:

• Tail has a hurtbox, use this to your advantage
• hit tail after CCing it or after whatever tail move he throws out.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Tail has a noticeable extended hurtbox

The base of the tail does have a hurtbox, but that's it. The rest is disjointed. Realistically speaking it will rarely come into play.

I'll do a knowledge drop from Mewtwo's perspective in a bit, need to finish up an assignment real quick first.

 

[TomBoComBo]

The base of the tail does have a hurtbox, but that's it. The rest is disjointed. Realistically speaking it will rarely come into play.

I'll do a knowledge drop from Mewtwo's perspective in a bit, need to finish up an assignment real quick first.

The tail hurtbox comes into play more than you realize, yes it's a disjoint at the end and the hurtbox only exists to about halfway down, but it's enough to catch

 

[didds]

Yoshi has a potent trade game too which always benefits him in the end, especially against a Mewtwo

 

[Damp]

Important, do NOT try to follow up a down throw with a fair. Mewtwo can DI the throw away and get you with a retreating shadow claw 10 times out of 10.

 

[Mumbo]

Important, do NOT try to follow up a down throw with a fair. Mewtwo can DI the throw away and get you with a retreating shadow claw 10 times out of 10.

Are you sure? Most characters you can hit before they even get out of hitstun. I don't know why Mewtwo would be different. Certainly you'll get hit if you are too slow, and maybe the window to hit is very small, but I would imagine if you are quick enough you could get there before he gets out of hitstun. Also, how fast does shadow claw come out?

 

[Damp]

Are you sure? Most characters you can hit before they even get out of hitstun. I don't know why Mewtwo would be different. Certainly you'll get hit if you are too slow, and maybe the window to hit is very small, but I would imagine if you are quick enough you could get there before he gets out of hitstun. Also, how fast does shadow claw come out?

Pretty sure shadow claw is like a frame 2 move. If your opponent DIs the throw correctly, you can't hit at all. Mewtwo is too light and floaty.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Are you sure? Most characters you can hit before they even get out of hitstun. I don't know why Mewtwo would be different. Certainly you'll get hit if you are too slow, and maybe the window to hit is very small, but I would imagine if you are quick enough you could get there before he gets out of hitstun. Also, how fast does shadow claw come out?

Shadow claw comes out rather fast, but as I added to this thread above, Yoshi's fair as a very slight disjoint at the upper part of the nose/eyes that outranges shadow claw. The spacing is difficult, but very doable. NOT knowing or doing this, damp is correct, you'll get shadow clawed if you go all the way after him with fair. BUT, if you go after him with a sour Nair, you'll stuff shadowclaw.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Pretty sure shadow claw is like a frame 2 move. If your opponent DIs the throw correctly, you can't hit at all. Mewtwo is too light and floaty.

You can throw out an early Nair and get him or space the fair perfectly like stated above

 

[Damp]

You can throw out an early Nair and get him or space the fair perfectly like stated above

I don't know if it's worth going for the fair ever then. If the sour nair approach works to stuff the shadow claw, I would choose that 10 time out of 10.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I don't know if it's worth going for the fair ever then. If the sour nair approach works to stuff the shadow claw, I would choose that 10 time out of 10.

its the safer option

 

[Garr]

Alright, might as well throw in what I know, since I play both Mewtwo and Yoshi.

3.5's skewed alot of MU's, and Yoshi is no exception. The first major thing to point out is that Mewtwo's U-tilt had its base knockback halved, making braindead easy to crouch cancel. Yoshi's CC game is strong, hella strong. Use it well, my Yoshi brethren. CCing into a Down B is probably the easiest way to kill a Mewtwo.

Also, be warned. Mewtwo can still (in under certain circumstances) hover out of teleport, and Yoshi lacks the disjoints to challenge the hover Nair. @hamyojo said that Nair is questionable when beating through it, but it's Yoshi's best option to counter it.

Don't start any tail wars against Mewtwo. Unlike Yoshi, his tail's actually disjointed. Bair is not very good tool in the neutral against him. The hurtboxes on that are super wonky. Using it in your combos is fine, though. I had some instances where reverse Bair combo'ed into a finisher.

Stay on the ground. I repeat, STAY ON THE ****ING GROUND. Mewtwo's Uair is godlike, and you can repeatedly float cancel it along with other aerials for some absurd pressure. Don't go for any fancy waveland shenanigans if it results in putting you above Mewtwo. You need to stick to a ground game, where you have your unpokeable shield and strong CC game. DJC aerials are really good, too. Mewtwo's aerials have weak knockback.

Oh, and if he approaches with teleport, anticipate with a SH Nair. This is your fastest option in the neutral, and Mewtwo has to take commitment to that approach. It's not as safe as you would think, especially with the nerfs. Don't rely on moves with a lot of end lag. Mewtwo can effortlessly teleport in with a punish.

On to edgeguarding and recovery. If you're edgeguarding Mewtwo, don't bother going offstage if he has his 2nd jump. You're gonna need the reads of a lifetime if you're willing to take that gruesome risk. If he has a habit of sweetspotting the ledge, Yoshi can steal it pretty fast with that DJ turnaround. If he recovers high and is helpless, free Nair or Uair. If he auto-cancels on the stage, not much you can do it. Just go back to neutral. Now if Mewtwo's edguarding Yoshi, he surprisingly has a hard time doing so unless the Yoshi player recovers from low. Both characters have a tough time edgeguarding each other, but at a high enough percentage, Mewtwo's Bair and Uair can eat through the armor and render you helpless. But again, Yoshi has a pretty darn good recovery if he mixes it up. That trajectories are very tricky to wall out. Go to Dreamland for the longest game ever lol.

I'm gonna say this MU is slightly in Yoshi's favor. This is a battle of attrition, and Yoshi has the armor and kill power to tank out the hits better than Mewtwo can. However, your mobility is nothing compared to Mewtwo's, as he can weave circles around you, and your wavelands, something that defines Yoshi's movement, is a bad option due to the amount of space Mewtwo's Uair controls. Play in small stages where you can kill Mewtwo early. Yoshi's much heavier and can survive longer than he can in Warioware or Yoshi's Story. Ban large stages.

Hopefully, this all has been helpful in understanding the MU. It's a tricky one, but it depends a lot on both character's survivability. Neither of them have extensive combos on each other, so again, it's a battle of attrition.