Meta Knight Stage Thread:

[Ulevo]

Edit: Discussion has staled. Better reserved for match up discussions.

 

[Ulevo]

Alright. I did not think this thread was necessary initially, but given that this topic is sort of neglected in our match up discussions I wanted to get conversation started.

Here is how this is going to work.

In the Starters column, people will nominate what they feel are the appropriate starters for Meta Knight to start on against said character. The goal is to get the best three choices, as each player only gets two strikes.

In the Picks column, these are the stages we will want to counter pick in game 2 and onward. The goal is to get the best four choices, as each player gets to ban two stages, and we need to account for Dave's Stupid Rule.

In the Bans column, these are the stages we will want to ban in game 2 and onward. The goal is to get the best three choices, because if one of the stages is a starter and the opponent won on game 1, we will need two additional ban options.

You do not need to offer those many nominations, just give your opinions and justify why. The hope is that we can get a relatively decent consensus on most of these match ups. Some of them will be really obvious. i.e. Olimar is probably never going to want to go to Delfino against us. Some of them will be more up for debate.

Discuss.

 

[warionumbah2]

Fine i'll post first guys, against i would take him to FD as a starter. There's no platforms which is great because he can't pressure our shieldwith uair or bair or outright kill us.

His horizontal resistance is very low and FDs width is quite small making F-smash,ledge trump into bair ect viable kill options or straight up better.

I would not take Fox to halberd but the Fox player will be hella nervous taking us there, so its not ban worthy imo. I feel Fox can play keep away when we land on Halberd.

I would ban BF asap and CP to TnC and maybe Duck hunt. I don't want Fox to abuse his platform pressure, TnC is nice with the slightly lower ceiling. Hope someone can expand this.

Starters: FD,TnC and SV.
CP: TnC,Halberd and Duck hunt(?)
Ban: BF,Mii verse and maybe Delfino??? Not sure.

 

[Ulevo]

Fine i'll post first guys, against i would take him to FD as a starter. There's no platforms which is great because he can't pressure our shieldwith uair or bair or outright kill us.

His horizontal resistance is very low and FDs width is quite small making F-smash,ledge trump into bair ect viable kill options or straight up better.

I would not take Fox to halberd but the Fox player will be hella nervous taking us there, so its not ban worthy imo. I feel Fox can play keep away when we land on Halberd.

I would ban BF asap and CP to TnC and maybe Duck hunt. I don't want Fox to abuse his platform pressure, TnC is nice with the slightly lower ceiling. Hope someone can expand this.

Starters: FD,TnC and SV.
CP: TnC,Halberd and Duck hunt(?)
Ban: BF,Mii verse and maybe Delfino??? Not sure.

Funny that I just put in Final Destination as a stage to ban against Fox.

Recent tournament I went to I faced a Fox who beat me. Essentially all he did was run away and laser camp to rack up %. He got away with it because I had been camping people the whole day and was not expecting someone to out camp me, and his grounded lasers recover a lot faster than they seem. I also was not expecting him to opt for Final Destination game 1. This same Fox actually struck Battlefield and Dreamland against me.

What I have noticed from watching Ito play is that whenever he plays against Fox and Sheik, he rushes them down and it turns in to a game of cat and mouse. This is quite obvious, since we cannot afford to let them camp and are forced to approach, but in order to keep up with them we need to exert a lot of pressure.

For these reasons I think Final Destination is a stage we need to ban. Fox's only 'reliable' options for kills are up smash, down smash and up airs, and higher or lower ceilings usually are not going to help with the former given its kill strength and our light weight. Final Destination is just as large as Town & City without the upside of giving us earlier kills.

 

[warionumbah2]

So which stage would you and anyone viewing recommend? I'm stumped on what stages to pick against him.

I would say SV, but there's times where he ****s up my shield when i get on the platform. Well that's MKs thing, he scares people when he's at mid range, then its 50/50 from there. Still hard af to pin them down when under pressure.

 

[Ulevo]

So which stage would you and anyone viewing recommend? I'm stumped on what stages to pick against him.

I would say SV, but there's times where he ****s up my shield when i get on the platform. Well that's MKs thing, he scares people when he's at mid range, then its 50/50 from there. Still hard af to pin them down when under pressure.

How does he mess your shield up when under pressure. I would recommend Smashville as at least a starter because it is easier to catch him due to the small stage size and the platform allows for laser relief.

 

[warionumbah2]

Usually fox players will go for rar bairs and well timed uairs so I can't shuttle loop oos shield them, this is offline of course no way are they pulling this off online.

This is more of a player fault if anything.

 

[warionumbah2]

So are we gonna talk about stages we should take sheik or roy to? Or we gonna let a thread this useful die?

 

[Ulevo]

So are we gonna talk about stages we should take sheik or roy to? Or we gonna let a thread this useful die?

I would prefer the former.

@ItoI6 @ Katakiri @ ZTD | TECHnology @ W.A.C. @Bonk! @Superbat

I feel that we should not be taking Sheik to Smashville. I feel like this is a mistake. Dreamland, Town and Final Destination are all worse for her while being just as good or better for us.

I am unsure on what to ban against her. Castle Siege or Lylat? How do you feel.

 

[W.A.C.]

The walkoff transitions in Castle Siege could screw over Meta Knight pretty badly when Shiek does her forward air strings. Plus when customs are enabled, her shield breaking needles goes through the ****ing statues. I always ban Castle Siege at tournaments, but I would always ban that stage against her, especially with customs on. Not to mention the stage's transitions can also wreck Meta Knight's combo setups. I absolutely hate that stage and wish it would get banned. I feel people mostly pick that stage just to screw over their opponent through cheesy tactics.

 

[warionumbah2]

Ban Castle Seige, her camp game is too strong especially in customs according to WAC. Getting fair chained then you land on the platform near the sides then you get hit by bf or another fair is cheesy and not cool.

Also ban SV, once again the platforms aid her fair strings very well.

 

[Ulevo]

I wanted to have Ito's opinion on this because I have seen him play Sheik's on Castle Siege before. My thoughts on it are that Sheik has an advantage in Castle Siege 1 in that it has the smallest side blast zones at the ledge in the game tied with Halberd 2, she receives wall jump recovery options, and the overall blast zone width is also small on Castle Siege 2. Due to the walk off, it also allows her to get potential forward air combo kills.

I do see elements on this stage that are nice for Meta Knight, however.

If we were to ban Smashville and Castle Siege, are there any other bans that would be good? Any bans better than those former two? I think Sheik does really well on Halberd but I would wager we might do better.

 

[warionumbah2]

Would Sheik players have the balls to challenge MK on Halberd? Doubt they would risk it.

I also would like to read Ito's views on Sheik stage wise, he plays this MU religiously in customs where Sheik is much better than her default self.

 

[Fye]

I'd personally ban FD against Palutena and take her to SV. If we go to FD, she'll be able to control the pace of the match better as there is no platforms to run away on. She can throw out jab and SS easily to fish for grabs. The lack of a platform hurts our game as we have little to approach with against a Palutena who's throwing out jab and SS on a flat stage.

SV gives us a platform to work with that doesn't add much to Palutena's game. It also gives us ample space and along with the platform allows us to keep our distance and wait for her to come to us.

Battlefield can work well because of its more limited space, stopping her from abusing her movement customs. However, we'd have to work with killing later. While we don't have consistent kill options past 120% or so, you'd have to reliably kill her before she builds up rage and kills with her guarenteed kill throw combo.

I wouldn't take her to Dreamland because the large stage and 3 platform layout would help her play lame and camp us out if she really wanted.

T&C would probably be our next best because of its similarity to SV, but it does allow Palutena to kill us earlier as well.

 

[Ulevo]

I'd personally ban FD against Palutena and take her to SV. If we go to FD, she'll be able to control the pace of the match better as there is no platforms to run away on. She can throw out jab and SS easily to fish for grabs. The lack of a platform hurts our game as we have little to approach with against a Palutena who's throwing out jab and SS on a flat stage.

SV gives us a platform to work with that doesn't add much to Palutena's game. It also gives us ample space and along with the platform allows us to keep our distance and wait for her to come to us.

Battlefield can work well because of its more limited space, stopping her from abusing her movement customs. However, we'd have to work with killing later. While we don't have consistent kill options past 120% or so, you'd have to reliably kill her before she builds up rage and kills with her guarenteed kill throw combo.

I wouldn't take her to Dreamland because the large stage and 3 platform layout would help her play lame and camp us out if she really wanted.

T&C would probably be our next best because of its similarity to SV, but it does allow Palutena to kill us earlier as well.

Is Palutena's Light Weight reset glitch not a concern with platform layouts?

Also, Dreamland and Battlefield are the same size except Dreamland has a lower ceiling and a deeper bottom.

As far as Town & City is concerned, it is essentially a Final Destination 3/4th of the time, so any problems we would encounter on Final Destination we would have there as well.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing since I have no fought one, but I would like congruency.

 

[Fye]

Lightweight glitch can hampen Palutena for a short time, but she can still SS during her recovery so while it may mess with her grabs, her movement is still amazing.

I thought DL's platforms were farther away from each other. Maybe I am wrong. The point being we don't want to chase a Palutena platform hopping, and if the platforms are farther apart, it makes it harder to reach. A smaller stage will let us catch up to her easier.

T&C has both the benefit/curse of having a low ceiling in this matchup. This can lessen the effect of rage and missing that KO. While it may be FD for a time being, there are moments where there is platforms to aid us. We may be forced to play her game for a period of time, but I believe the platforms do get in the way of her camping MK.

I could be wrong about this list, though. Any other person willing to add more would help.

 

[Ulevo]

Lightweight glitch can hampen Palutena for a short time, but she can still SS during her recovery so while it may mess with her grabs, her movement is still amazing.

I thought DL's platforms were farther away from each other. Maybe I am wrong. The point being we don't want to chase a Palutena platform hopping, and if the platforms are farther apart, it makes it harder to reach. A smaller stage will let us catch up to her easier.

T&C has both the benefit/curse of having a low ceiling in this matchup. This can lessen the effect of rage and missing that KO. While it may be FD for a time being, there are moments where there is platforms to aid us. We may be forced to play her game for a period of time, but I believe the platforms do get in the way of her camping MK.

I could be wrong about this list, though. Any other person willing to add more would help.

How does the glitch hampen her? I am talking about the glitch that allows her to reset her Lightweight as long as she uses it on a platform, effectivly ignoring the cooldown.

 

[warionumbah2]

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but I recommend banning FD against Sonic. He has so much space to bail and overall hard to pin down, at least with platforms we can scoop him up with uair.

SV is a solid starter despite his fair bs, we can platform camp shown by ito and as I said platform. Smaller stage too, I might also recommend cp to dreamland or halberd.

DL is overall small and it has a lower ceiling, Sonic has nowhere to run if he goes above he puts himself in danger of a shuttle loop kill. Halberd for obvious reasons, our kill setups are more consistent than his uair --> spring --> uair. Thoughts?

I only speak of defaults btw.

On tablet so theres most likely alot of typos.

 

[Fye]

How does the glitch hampen her? I am talking about the glitch that allows her to reset her Lightweight as long as she uses it on a platform, effectivly ignoring the cooldown.

I mean lightweight hampens her when it runs out (not the glitch itself). She becomes incredibly slow and can't follow up with grabs. She can still super speed during this time and can wait out with that and jab until she moves again.

 

[Ulevo]

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned, but I recommend banning FD against Sonic. He has so much space to bail and overall hard to pin down, at least with platforms we can scoop him up with uair.

SV is a solid starter despite his fair bs, we can platform camp shown by ito and as I said platform. Smaller stage too, I might also recommend cp to dreamland or halberd.

DL is overall small and it has a lower ceiling, Sonic has nowhere to run if he goes above he puts himself in danger of a shuttle loop kill. Halberd for obvious reasons, our kill setups are more consistent than his uair --> spring --> uair. Thoughts?

I only speak of defaults btw.

On tablet so theres most likely alot of typos.

I have heard from a Sonic main that Battlefield is a very poor stage for Sonic, so striking and banning Final Destination seems consistent with this. I would almost prefer Battlefield over Dreamland because of the size of the platforms, though I cannot really speak for this yet. I agree Smashville is an ideal starter due to smaller size.

 

[warionumbah2]

We can kill sooner on DL and because of the platforms being larger it makes it easier to land our Up throw on the upper platform. Both are good stages for us.

But if Sonic mains themselves find that stage horrible we may as well put BF on there. Or both, so long as we get the 'ban FD' up there im all good(also TnC since that's mostly FD).

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I just got back from a weekend long tournament so I am exhausted. I will begin to post my observations once I get some rest. You got me on Facebook anyway if you need to reach me @ Ulevo .

 

[warionumbah2]

Against there isn't any stage i fear taking him to. Our starter should definitely be SV we can camp him on ANY stage but that's only circle camping, on SV however we can platform camp him which allows us to safely tack on damage using OOS Dair the moment Luigi touches our shield(and its overall easier to pull off).

You basically abuse that platform even at the start of the match, when you feel like going down make sure its when Luigi doesn't expect it. Get a combo then run back on and when you get the lead its game(similar to Little Mac). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONvjdFvryYQ

Its the only stage(to my knowledge) where we have the clear advantage.


Knowing Tech he'll probably analyze the stages we take to.

 

[Ulevo]

Can the ducks on Duck Hunt block Sheik's Bouncing Fish?

 

[warionumbah2]

Can the ducks on Duck Hunt block Sheik's Bouncing Fish?

Yes they can.

 

[LostinpinK]

Clearly ban FD 100% against Luigi. He's too hard to camp without plateforms. Duck hunt is alright because the stage is bigger so you can move around slightly more.
I find Halberd pretty bad because the first part is tiny and makes him harder to gimp. He also gains a lot from low ceilings. I'd like more input on that.

 

[Ulevo]

Clearly ban FD 100% against Luigi. He's too hard to camp without plateforms. Duck hunt is alright because the stage is bigger so you can move around slightly more.
I find Halberd pretty bad because the first part is tiny and makes him harder to gimp. He also gains a lot from low ceilings. I'd like more input on that.

Why would Final Destination make it harder to camp him? Luigi is easy to camp regardless of stage as long as we have a lead. His projectile is slow and easy to Perfect Shield.

I think Smashville is the #1 choice in terms of a starter.

Hypothetically speaking, how do people feel about Lylat and Castle Siege against Luigi? Lylat's tilts will either block or manually evade Luigi's projectile. There is a chance it can tilt and have him whiff his Super Jump Punch at the ledge. I would also wager that the tilting might mess up some of his down throw combos. Castle Siege has an uneven stage on Castle Siege 1, statues that block his projectile on Castle Siege 2, and a tilting platform on Castle Siege 3.

I am unsure about Halberd and Delfino against Luigi. He is one of the few characters that can kill almost as low as we can, and he gets many benefits from Delfino, such as having exploitable recovery patched up.

Duck Hunt might not be terrible because of how easily we can camp Luigi, though the Ducks will not interfere as well as they would in other projectile match ups.

 

[warionumbah2]

Even is his older brother gets wrecked on CS, I wouldn't take Luigi to Delfino or Halberd probably ban those. His down throw into anything is stupid no matter the percent.

CS is a stage I would CP to and FD doesn't hinder MKs circle camp game LostP. Never taken Lylat into consideration, on paper its really good for us.

 

[Katakiri]

My personal starter picks:
Smashville
Any character I can platform camp against, I might take them here. The SV platform is godlike for MK and doesn't go away like T&C's.
T&C
Projectile-based characters or characters that abuse SV's platform well, I'll take them here.
FD
If I don't like SV or T&C giving someone an extra recovery/landing option or I can't platform camp them but they do well on BF/DL, I take them here.
Dream Land
This stage gives MK a lot of room to operate with a lowish ceiling and high platforms to abuse.
BF
Projectile-less characters that I can't run from, I'll take them here. Fox is only here because he likes the low ceiling of Dream Land and isn't as easy to 0-death off the top there as Rosalina is.

Smashville is my favorite overall starter and Dream Land is a close second. T&C is my back-up if I can't get to Smashville or Dream Land in most MUs. BF isn't bad but I wouldn't call it good either; it has the same layout as Dream Land but the platform height of Dream Land matters a lot.

 

[Ulevo]

My personal starter picks:
Smashville
Any character I can platform camp against, I might take them here. The SV platform is godlike for MK and doesn't go away like T&C's.
T&C
Projectile-based characters or characters that abuse SV's platform well, I'll take them here.
FD
If I don't like SV or T&C giving someone an extra recovery/landing option or I can't platform camp them but they do well on BF/DL, I take them here.
Dream Land
This stage gives MK a lot of room to operate with a lowish ceiling and high platforms to abuse.
BF
Projectile-less characters that I can't run from, I'll take them here. Fox is only here because he likes the low ceiling of Dream Land and isn't as easy to 0-death off the top there as Rosalina is.

Smashville is my favorite overall starter and Dream Land is a close second. T&C is my back-up if I can't get to Smashville or Dream Land in most MUs. BF isn't bad but I wouldn't call it good either; it has the same layout as Dream Land but the platform height of Dream Land matters a lot.

I think giving Olimar a pseudo Final Destination when we can simply take him to Smashvile and use the platform to camp him would be a better option.

I am also not sure about Dreamland for Rosalina. You need to remember that the ceiling height on Dreamland is the same as Final Destination, it only appears lower because it is lower than Battlefield. With this in mind, why give Rosalina platforms to use? We can kill Rosalina as early as 9%, so I feel Town & City and Final Desintation are fine against her. Even Smashville might be fine.

Watching Ness on stream yesterday made me notice something. I think Battlefield is a good start choice against him. The reason is three fold. 1: The platforms prevent him from doing three successive forward airs off a grab. 2: The platforms interfere with his ability to use PK1 to hit himself on stage. 3: The blast zones are wider, helping us survive back throw to some degree.

 

[W.A.C.]

Battlefield is a good stage against Ness because the space around the stage and the blast zone are enormous, which makes it harder for Ness to kill with backthrow and makes it more difficult for Ness to get back to the stage.

 

[Ulevo]

Would someone be able to check that, actually? I would like to know how much earlier a back throw will kill at the ledge and centre on Battlefield versus Smashville and Final Destination. I cannot test that myself at the moment.

 

[warionumbah2]

And if anyone bothers to get that info, remember MK can live 2% longer from horizontal moves by mashing the jump button.

 

[warionumbah2]

Would someone be able to check that, actually? I would like to know how much earlier a back throw will kill at the ledge and centre on Battlefield versus Smashville and Final Destination. I cannot test that myself at the moment.

First numbers are with proper DI, second is proper DI while mashing the jump button.

BF center = 120-122%
BF ledge = 92-94%

SV center = 110-112%
SV ledge = 83-85%

FD center = 118-120%
FD ledge = 84-86%

 

[warionumbah2]

Sorry for double post.

Against (default)Villager i would ban BF and DL. Platforms allows him to use his F-Smash off the side and actually use DA as a projectile.

Platforms also allow Villager to continue his Fair/Bair strings, the tree sap is hard to clock on DL too due to the background colors and the bush hiding it on the foreground.

A solid starter is TnC, the stage doesn't provide Villager with platforms to exploit like SV. Or FD because there's no platforms, the depth of the stage isn't DL/BF stupid(stage spike kills are more reliable) and its easy to maintain pressure against Villager overall.

CP him to Halberd imo.

 

[Ulevo]

Sorry for double post.

Against (default)Villager i would ban BF and DL. Platforms allows him to use his F-Smash off the side and actually use DA as a projectile.

Platforms also allow Villager to continue his Fair/Bair strings, the tree sap is hard to clock on DL too due to the background colors and the bush hiding it on the foreground.

A solid starter is TnC, the stage doesn't provide Villager with platforms to exploit like SV. Or FD because there's no platforms, the depth of the stage isn't DL/BF stupid(stage spike kills are more reliable) and its easy to maintain pressure against Villager overall.

CP him to Halberd imo.

Halberd has a platform layout that is beneficial to Villager, and his up air is really strong if he gets three turnips. Its been a while so I do not recall how Villager usually scores kills.

 

[W.A.C.]

Last time I took a Villager player to Halberd, I regretted it. There was so little space that he could camp pretty hardcore, especially on the top platform. Granted, I did that match with 1.04 Diddy Kong, but my other experience taking Villager to Halberd using Meta Knight didn't go so well either. Though I blame the latter scenario more so the fact I just wasn't playing well with Meta Knight that day.

 

[tyro8]

Vs i would choose TnC or Dream Land because the low ceiling helps us more than it does to him just be careful dont get grabbed if he d throws u he can u air at high % if he gets those 3 turnips u will die. Ban Halberd, FD cuz u dont want to get camped Im not sure about Lylat but i think we could counterpicked. This remebers me that Salena played vs Ranai on Omega Lylat and he did pretty well but i will still ban FD.
Vs FD is good because we dont want to get killed super early by his u air and he doesnt really camp if they spam PK fire that punishable Lylat is decent here because the blastzones on the top aint as small. Ban Castle Siege and Delfino they both cover ness and lucas weaknesses their recoveries and we dont want that also Ban Halberd because we dont want to get SUPER early killed by b throw and u air.
Vs Battlefield and Dream Land is good because it gives us space that we need because of Falcon dominant neutral FD its decent because it a stage pretty even for both MK and Falcon. It was used too Ito vs Fatality the video is in the video thread if someone wants to watch it. Ban im not sure about this Falcon is good in every stage imo i would ban smashville.