Melee Mewtwo vs. Smash 4 Mewtwo

[MagiusNecros]

alright there are some things we can't agree on, but what are things you'd want mewtwo to be patched/buffed?

Utilt and it's weird hitbox tea party. Maybe make mewtwo invulnerable when he goes purple in teleport.

 

[GanonPawnch]

Utilt and it's weird hitbox tea party. Maybe make mewtwo invulnerable when he goes purple in teleport.

Why do people think up-tilt is weird? It covers all in front of him, above him and a bit behind him if the character is tall enough. Also, up-tilt combos into up smash... at kill percent.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Why do people think up-tilt is weird? It covers all in front of him, above him and a bit behind him if the character is tall enough. Also, up-tilt combos into up smash... at kill percent.

It occasionally decides to whiff completely at close range. Can be bothersome with how you need to work for an opening since taking any hit is bad for you.

 

[GanonPawnch]

It occasionally decides to whiff completely at close range. Can be bothersome with how you need to work for an opening since taking any hit is bad for you.

Can't say I've had that problem, then again, I haven't been playing as much as I would like.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well that's why people say it is weird after all.

Also don't expect weight to ever change.

Most changes seem to be damage and knockback values.

 

[meleebrawler]

Still think mewtwo should be killing at percentages he can die at. Otherwise Ganon does fundamentally everything better. Custom Ganon anyway.

Can he make a long distance punish or reflect the projectiles that give him so much trouble? Can he pester people
when he's not in range? Saying he does everything Mewtwo does but better is kind of a stretch. He plays the PUNISH
game better to be sure, but it comes at the cost of a less solid neutral than Mewtwo's.

Here's what I see Ganon having over Mewtwo:
-Kill power
-Vertical survivability
-Longer command grab that can kamikaze
-More threatening anti-juggle attacks

And here's what Mewtwo has:
-Projectile (good for harassment and killing)
-Reflector
-Faster footsies
-Mobility (not only are the natural specs better but he has much more options like confusion jumping and shadow ball recoil).
-Grab game (it may be short but it beats Ganon, and it doesn't lag terribly either. And Ganon may get guaranteed stuff at low
percent, but Mewtwo can outright kill pretty easily and even just creating space is good when you have a projectile).
-Recovery (dropkick does close the gap significantly, but it still doesn't quite match the mixup potential of Mewtwo's).
-Edge guarding (Ganon is lethal, but Mewtwo can actually go deep where the discrepancy in power becomes somewhat moot).
-A minor thing, but lightweight + floaty breaks some combos.

So while Ganon has Mewtwo beat in raw lethality and survivability (with customs), Mewtwo is much more flexible
in how he goes about his game and can never be counted out in neutral with relatively fast footsies, projectile and reflector.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Can he make a long distance punish or reflect the projectiles that give him so much trouble? Can he pester people
when he's not in range? Saying he does everything Mewtwo does but better is kind of a stretch. He plays the PUNISH
game better to be sure, but it comes at the cost of a less solid neutral than Mewtwo's.

Here's what I see Ganon having over Mewtwo:
-Kill power
-Vertical survivability
-Longer command grab that can kamikaze
-More threatening anti-juggle attacks

And here's what Mewtwo has:
-Projectile (good for harassment and killing)
-Reflector
-Faster footsies
-Mobility (not only are the natural specs better but he has much more options like confusion jumping and shadow ball recoil).
-Grab game (it may be short but it beats Ganon, and it doesn't lag terribly either. And Ganon may get guaranteed stuff at low
percent, but Mewtwo can outright kill pretty easily and even just creating space is good when you have a projectile).
-Recovery (dropkick does close the gap significantly, but it still doesn't quite match the mixup potential of Mewtwo's).
-Edge guarding (Ganon is lethal, but Mewtwo can actually go deep where the discrepancy in power becomes somewhat moot).
-A minor thing, but lightweight + floaty breaks some combos.

So while Ganon has Mewtwo beat in raw lethality and survivability (with customs), Mewtwo is much more flexible
in how he goes about his game and can never be counted out in neutral with relatively fast footsies, projectile and reflector.

I agree Mewtwo definitely has a decent amount of tools however you must factor that a command grab is still a grab and that Ganon wins that battle with Flame Choke. And that Ganon can have one of the best shield grabs based on reaction.

While Mewtwo can edgeguard, Ganon can counter that with a ledge guard by recovering low via Dark Fists or Ganoncide you if you were dumb enough to let that happen.

As for Shadowball Ganon can clank out any charge with Bair and just Dash attack through most of the weaker charged Shadowball's. Or use WDK to just kick over it.

Now if we put the best Ganon and the best Mewtwo at the highest skill level Mewtwo would come out on top because of how versatile he can be. Unless of course the Ganon gets the most reads. Since one Fsmash at 50% at the edge is all it takes for Mewtwo to die to Ganon with no Rage.

Ganon and Mewtwo punish for mistakes and if Ganon punishes then he gets the greater reward out of it.

Oh and all of Ganon's attacks have hitboxes that work according to the animation.

Give Mewtwo some damage increase's back to Melee status and fix some stuff like how he can be hit out of teleport and I'd be all good.

 

[meleebrawler]

I agree Mewtwo definitely has a decent amount of tools however you must factor that a command grab is still a grab and that Ganon wins that battle with Flame Choke. And that Ganon can have one of the best shield grabs based on reaction.

While Mewtwo can edgeguard, Ganon can counter that with a ledge guard by recovering low via Dark Fists or Ganoncide you if you were dumb enough to let that happen.

As for Shadowball Ganon can clank out any charge with Bair and just Dash attack through most of the weaker charged Shadowball's. Or use WDK to just kick over it.

Now if we put the best Ganon and the best Mewtwo at the highest skill level Mewtwo would come out on top because of how versatile he can be. Unless of course the Ganon gets the most reads. Since one Fsmash at 50% at the edge is all it takes for Mewtwo to die to Ganon with no Rage.

Ganon and Mewtwo punish for mistakes and if Ganon punishes then he gets the greater reward out of it.

Oh and all of Ganon's attacks have hitboxes that work according to the animation.

Give Mewtwo some damage increase's back to Melee status and fix some stuff like how he can be hit out of teleport and I'd be all good.

I didn't consider those traits solely for when they fight each other, they apply as a whole. You're not going to bair
slingshots or hop over needles, are you?

Still, I believe you mentioned yourself that shadow ball has very low endlag so unless you really anticipate
a throw you're not punishing Mewtwo, and in fact he'll probably end up punishing you. Dropkick is easier to react
to in neutral and weaker to boot.

You could just say Ganon wins if he gets more reads about every matchup and it'd be accurate.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Every matchup is going to require different strategies and how Ganon and Mewtwo have to play against said matchups.

Ganon wants to be up close but Mewtwo can be anywhere he wants. Which is most likely why Ganon can survive longer while Mewtwo cannot.

 

[meleebrawler]

Every matchup is going to require different strategies and how Ganon and Mewtwo have to play against said matchups.

Ganon wants to be up close but Mewtwo can be anywhere he wants. Which is most likely why Ganon can survive longer while Mewtwo cannot.

And why Mewtwo doesn't hit quite as hard.

 

[godogod]

It occasionally decides to whiff completely at close range. Can be bothersome with how you need to work for an opening since taking any hit is bad for you.

agreed. They have to be at a really perfect certain distance away from Mewtwo. Shorter characters can avoid it all together.

up air whiffs too.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Why do people think up-tilt is weird? It covers all in front of him, above him and a bit behind him if the character is tall enough. Also, up-tilt combos into up smash... at kill percent.

Yeah. i honestly find utilt a lot less weird then bair's weird partially intangible tail. utilt is still dumb though

 

[ToTs]

Definitely smash 4 Mewtwo. Hes really not tooo different character wise. Its pretty much just the mechanics of the game that really makes him different, and a few Buffs and Nerfs.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's okay to make him different. Not okay to make him borderline broken. It's baffling to how many times you'll eat a stock losing to stupid **** that wouldn't happen to any other character on the roster.

Sometimes I just hope Teleport doesn't kill me or an attack doesn't miss.