Melee HD Is A Monkey Paw Wish

As Melee gets older, many people in the community have begun speculating about Nintendo releasing an HD version for the Nintendo Switch. There's currently a large number of barriers to entry for people trying to get into competitive Smash Bros. Melee. You need a Wii or Gamecube, a CRT Television, a Gamecube controller, and a copy of Melee itself. Thanks to Nintendo releasing new Smashball controllers for Smash 4, controllers are thankfully easy to find and fairly cheap, but the rest can be fairly rare and expensive, especially getting a copy of Melee. Bringing Melee to a newer platform would allow newcomers to get into the game more easily and would significantly ease tournament setup and it could potentially include an official online play mode on actual hardware, but despite these obvious advantages to a Melee HD rerelease, I think that the potential downsides of Melee HD are too dangerous to make it a worthwhile proposition.

The most obvious issue with a rerelease of Melee is the question of which version of Melee they would use. Would they use the NTSC 1.02 version of the game, which is currently the preferred competitive standard, or would they use the PAL version, which was released later and has a number of balance changes and bug fixes? While the PAL version is arguably better balanced, most players enjoy and prefer the NTSC version of the game, because the top tier characters are more powerful and have more options, which makes them more fun to play. Given that the focus of competitive play is just the top tier characters in both PAL and NTSC, this makes the NTSC version of the game more fun for most players, where they can still spike people with Marth's down air, and the late hit of Falco's Down air, or perform Sheik's chaingrabs.

Beyond the issue of just the version, could we trust Nintendo not to tamper with the way the game works? Capcom had a similar issue with Street Fighter 2: HD Remix and Street Fighter III 3rd Strike: Online Edition. HD Remix was a complete rebalance of the game, but ended up being poorly received by the community. Thankfully the designers of SF2: HDR had the forethought to include the original version of the game, so players who were unhappy with the new balance changes could still play with the old version of the game, but ultimately players ended up moving back to older releases of SF2, due to subtle engine differences. When Capcom was considering whether to release a version of SF3 with similar balance patching, they asked the community what they wanted and we ended up with 3rd Strike Online Edition as a completely true to the original port, right down to the game crashing when you kill Makoto with Ken's Knee pummel grab. Some people like Bafael and Mike Z later lamented that such a balance patch didn't happen, but their lamentations weren't available when the game was being considered for rerelease. Changes can potentially improve a game, but would Nintendo be in tune enough to make the right changes? Would we accept changes in the first place, even if they were the right ones?

With Nintendo put in a similar place, would they release the game as-is with no changes, or would they try to issue their own corrections? Many Melee detractors like to joke about Nintendo releasing a version of Melee HD where all the bugs and exploits used in competitive play are fixed, viewing it as just punishment for the competitive players who, in the view of detractors, play the game "wrong". While the glitch status of things like Wavedashing are debatable, other oddities such as the Invisible Ceiling Glitch are a lot more clear-cut and may be removed without regard for whether they have a positive or negative effect on the game. And unlike Capcom, who rounded up a bunch of America's top players to balance SF2 HD Remix, it's unlikely that the competitive playerbase would be consulted on these changes to the game, given Nintendo's current lack of response or support for the Smash Bros competitive scene. Balancing a game is tricky, especially without the input of high-level players. Making the right changes requires data and experience over a long period of time, which Nintendo by themselves do not have. The PAL version, while arguably better balanced, still has some erroneous balance decisions that nerf characters who don't need it, like Ganondorf and Captain Falcon. Further highlighting how tricky it is to balance a game, the PAL nerf to Marth's weight is actually a small buff, because making him lighter barely pushes him past the breakpoint where Fox's waveshine will work on him.

Assuming they put together a satisfying release of the base game, there's still the issues of handling new features added to the game. Would Melee HD support Gamecube Controllers? Would it support control rebinding, like newer Smash Games? How would the netplay and matchmaking be implemented? Despite Smash Bros for Wii U having gamecube controller support, we don't know if this would be guaranteed for a Switch Port. The Gamecube controller converter for Smash for Wii U does not have compatibility for any other Wii U game. While it is possible that they could code drivers for it in Melee HD on Switch, they may neglect to do so because the Switch itself does not have a standard USB Port, only the Switch's dock has a standard USB slot, while the Switch unit itself has a USB-C port, which the existing Wii U Gamecube Controller Converter is not compatible with. A lot of the way Smash Bros Melee is played is connected to the Gamecube controller itself, which was a part of the controversy over the Smashbox. Losing Gamecube controller support would be a significant blow to long-time fans of the game.

On top of that, a Switch Port would inevitably mean introducing new control methods for Melee, and with them the possibility of custom control binding, as has appeared in later Smash games. While it's a small issue, Melee up to this point has not had any form of custom control binding, and even mods such as 20XX TE have refused to implement even small rebinds such as disabling tap jump on the basis that doing so would change the way the game is played, however slightly, and a competitive mod of the game should not have any gameplay differences that would give someone an advantage, even a play-style advantage, when playing on a 20XX TE setup versus a normal unmodded setup. While this is probably one of the most minor problems, it may still be an issue of contention.

Implementing quality Netplay has its own set of hurdles. Building a quality server architecture to support a large number of online players is a tricky undertaking in of itself, as Street Fighter V and Tekken 7's launches have shown, but perhaps more important is the implementation of the actual netcode. Fighting games require higher quality netcode than any other type of online game due to the fast speed at which actions can occur and the way in which landing an attack on your opponent can interrupt the opponent's attack, rather than both attacks completing successfully without issue. There's two general styles of netcode that are generally used for fighting games, Delay and Rollback, and history has generally shown that Rollback is the better of these two methods.

UFGTX: How to Make Fighting Games
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If you want a simplified explanation of how these work, in the video above, there is a talk by Mike Z explaining the differences between the two methods. Rollback makes tight inputs much more consistent, and Melee has a large number of frame-perfect and generally tight inputs that are made significantly harder by Delay-based netcode. Currently Dolphin emulation uses a Delay-based netcode solution, as does every console version of Smash Bros. Street Fighter V uses a rollback netcode solution, which is a significant improvement over previous netcode implementations for Capcom fighting games, though it's not quite as good as GGPO, the current best rollback netcode implementation for fighting games. Japanese companies have not adopted GGPO due to Japanese corporate values http://beaconreports.net/the-cost-of-japans-missed-ict-revolution/, and it's unlikely that Nintendo would be an exception here, given they're already not in touch with developments in the fighting game genre. So Melee HD would probably have bad netcode, likely worse than the delay netcode already present in Dolphin, which has had a considerable amount of work put into it by the dedicated coders of the Dolphin emulator and Anther's Ladder.

With Netplay comes the issues of matchmaking. If there is a competitive mode similar to For Glory in Smash Bros for Wii U, then will it necessarily use the competitive ruleset? Anther's Ladder has done a great job implementing this for netplay with dolphin, only using the legal competitive stages and having proper stage striking, albeit, with everyone on the honor system regarding reporting. Would a competitive matchmaking mode by Nintendo do the same, or just set every match on Final Destination? Would they even use 4 stocks and 8 minutes? Would they enforce anti-stalling rules, or outright remove elements like Wobbling? Would they allow you to play by this ruleset outside the competitive mode, even though most casual players don't even like time mode? The ranking system might be a wash too, but honestly, it is for most fighting games besides street fighter.

Despite all of this, maybe Melee HD could actually turn out fine, or at least passable. Even if the netplay is ruined or there's a few superfluous features added, or there is no GC Controller support while undocked, we still have the base game on a modern system in HD. But lets be honest, how likely is this to happen, given we're dealing with Nintendo? Nintendo isn't exactly known for the most consistent business decisions, such as limiting the NES Classic Edition to selling for exclusively the holiday season, despite a much larger ongoing demand for the device existing. Other examples of questionable decision making would include Metroid Federation Force being their followup to a long gap in Metroid Sequels, long-held refusal to implement a more modern account system for digital game purchases on the Wii and Wii U, insistence on archaic friend codes even on the Nintendo Switch, trying to ban the broadcasting of Smash Bros Melee at Evo 2013, minor to non-existent involvement in Smash Tournaments since then, and omitting Smash Bros from their new series of Invitational Tournaments. https://twitter.com/NintendoVS Nintendo has not really made any attempt to convey that it cares about the interests of the Smash Melee community, and given all the potential vectors for failure here, what's the likelihood of a release that lives up to our expectations?

So is it worth it? If something goes wrong, then this could mean a split in the community between the new version and the old version, which might harm the scene more than if nothing changed. We've weathered bad times for Melee before, like when Brawl came out, and this likely won't be as bad, but it's still a possibility. Given all the possible means of failure, is this something to hope for considering the risks involved? The Melee community has sustained itself for 16 years now. Technology is coming through to allow us to play laglessly on LCD Screens, thanks to low latency monitors and HDMI converters (As is the case with the Nebulous stream setup in NYC). We have everything we need to survive, and we'll continue to do so regardless of whether we get support from Nintendo. Melee HD is a nice dream, but it's unlikely for reality to turn out as pretty.

 

you're telling me that you're disagreeing with him? And, saying that it doesn't sound like he's never played melee?

 

you can still just play melee casually.. its not like as soon as you start up the game, you're just forced to play competitively

Oh my god I should make a mod that only lets you wavedash

 

My b one sec

 

I think there's a lesson here that could be taken into consideration for Melee, which is that you do not need to touch the characters that are perceived as strongest, but rather try to buff the characters that are perceived as weakest, such as Sean and Kirby. Making the rest of the cast more viable as opposed to the few of the cast less viable in my opinion is the best balancing strategy, and I doubt there'd be so much outcry on the part of that community when suddenly they have more character options to choose from--unless those babies really do care so much about Melee only because they don't have to think about more than 4 or 5 character matchups xP


This is such a gross mindset. I can't really say anything more than that.




Project M doesn't run at 60fps as far as I can see and has Brawl's aesthetic, not Melee's. There are reasons other than popularity and legality that dissuade players from playing Project Melee over Melee. Purchasing Project M would solve nothing.

 

le funny reaction face XD
upboated

 

Everyone complaining that Melee isn't as "accessable" lol. If they remade it into Melee HD, new copies of it would be everywhere. You wouldn't need a CRT TV, no gamecube or wii, 60fps, updated graphics, possible other changes, etc. It would be hard but nintendo would make a hell of a lot of money off it

 

what the hell... all Smash games since Melee run at 60fps. (64 tried to but it often struggles)

 

Everyone complaining that Melee isn't as "accessable" lol. If they remade it into Melee HD, new copies of it would be everywhere. You wouldn't need a CRT TV, no gamecube or wii, 60fps, updated graphics, possible other changes, etc. It would be hard but nintendo would make a hell of a lot of money off it

Unlikely, I think you overestimate how much it would sell. Gameplay not withstanding, most consumers would probably perceive it as a downgrade from Smash 4 with half the roster, music and stage selection, and the lack of 8 player Smash as well and not to mention that there are no third party characters which served as selling points for the new game.
If it's about Nintendo making profit from a Smash release in the immediate future, then the better option would obviously be to release a Smash 4 port for the Switch maybe with ARMS or Splatoon characters rather than an HD remaster of Melee.

 

idk i still see way more people coming to tournaments and getting hyped for Melee

 

Unlikely, I think you overestimate how much it would sell. Gameplay not withstanding, most consumers would probably perceive it as a downgrade from Smash 4 with half the roster, music and stage selection, and the lack of 8 player Smash as well and not to mention that there are no third party characters which served as selling points for the new game.
If it's about Nintendo making profit from a Smash release in the immediate future, then the better option would obviously be to release a Smash 4 port for the Switch maybe with ARMS or Splatoon characters rather than an HD remaster of Melee.

If they keep the core of the game intact, which is what Melee players want, they can add more characters and stages. That wouldn't change the game. It will be more fun for casuals who want the new stuff. And it wont effect tournaments because tournament rules can be put in place to enforce the stricter competitive play. They wont need to worry about balancing issues because games can be patched as they go along until people are happy with the level of balance they get. As long as people realize that not every character needs to be viable. All characters need good and bad match ups.

But at the end of the day Nintendo will change to much and the community wont be happy. And they have shown that it needs to be perfect or they will just keep playing the older Melee. And that's fair and reasonable. Its one of a few, if not the only, community that stands up for their game. We don't need to change if we are happy.

Things are different this time with the Switch. People are making games in their bedrooms and Nintendo is allowing them to sell them on the store. So it isn't unlikely that a fan made HD mod of the original version of Melee could be picked up. Ofcourse they wont legally be allowed to use the names and characters. But it does open the doors to Nintendo seeing that there are top level fan made projects, and then stealing them, because Nintendo has every right to say "give us the game you have worked on, or millions of dollars and you go to prison". And then making a shmoosle amount of money.

There will definitely be a Smash 4 port, I said somewhere else that they are recouping costs of development and re-releasing the older titles, like they did with Mario Kart 8 DX. And that's cool I guess. But there is nothing stopping them from adding some sort of Melee game as well. Sort of how Capcom have packaged there older Street Fighter titles. That way they will sell Smash 4 DX to the community that prefers it, and to the newer competitive players just picking it up that didn't get it on the Wii U. They will also be selling the game to those who don't care for Smash 4 and just want Melee. They will also be selling the game to those who have always wanted to get into Melee but haven't be able to and that didn't enjoy Smash 4. And it will be selling to casuals of each game and to new players who have never heard of the series, bolstering it to crazy heights. And since it will be double packed, at zero extra cost, it will give players of either game access to the other one for free, so chances are they will also give it a try, and that means many more entrants at tournaments cross playing titles.

But again, Nintendo will screw it up. Whether that is intentional or if it is because they tried to do a good thing and got it wrong. The fact is they will fiddle with a game that is perfect in the eyes of its fans. They can't keep their fingers out of the pie. As they did with Mario Kart. People weren't happy to put in a little time to learn the higher level techniques and complained, instead of just playing casually with other casual players. I for one have never been upset when a person playing to win beat me when I was just playing for fun. So I don't understand it. But that is Nintendo. Forever turning their backs on the gamers, and doing what the mother of four want's.

 

If they keep the core of the game intact, which is what Melee players want, they can add more characters and stages. That wouldn't change the game. It will be more fun for casuals who want the new stuff. And it wont effect tournaments because tournament rules can be put in place to enforce the stricter competitive play. They wont need to worry about balancing issues because games can be patched as they go along until people are happy with the level of balance they get. As long as people realize that not every character needs to be viable. All characters need good and bad match ups.

But at the end of the day Nintendo will change to much and the community wont be happy. And they have shown that it needs to be perfect or they will just keep playing the older Melee. And that's fair and reasonable. Its one of a few, if not the only, community that stands up for their game. We don't need to change if we are happy.

Things are different this time with the Switch. People are making games in their bedrooms and Nintendo is allowing them to sell them on the store. So it isn't unlikely that a fan made HD mod of the original version of Melee could be picked up. Ofcourse they wont legally be allowed to use the names and characters. But it does open the doors to Nintendo seeing that there are top level fan made projects, and then stealing them, because Nintendo has every right to say "give us the game you have worked on, or millions of dollars and you go to prison". And then making a shmoosle amount of money.

There will definitely be a Smash 4 port, I said somewhere else that they are recouping costs of development and re-releasing the older titles, like they did with Mario Kart 8 DX. And that's cool I guess. But there is nothing stopping them from adding some sort of Melee game as well. Sort of how Capcom have packaged there older Street Fighter titles. That way they will sell Smash 4 DX to the community that prefers it, and to the newer competitive players just picking it up that didn't get it on the Wii U. They will also be selling the game to those who don't care for Smash 4 and just want Melee. They will also be selling the game to those who have always wanted to get into Melee but haven't be able to and that didn't enjoy Smash 4. And it will be selling to casuals of each game and to new players who have never heard of the series, bolstering it to crazy heights. And since it will be double packed, at zero extra cost, it will give players of either game access to the other one for free, so chances are they will also give it a try, and that means many more entrants at tournaments cross playing titles.

But again, Nintendo will screw it up. Whether that is intentional or if it is because they tried to do a good thing and got it wrong. The fact is they will fiddle with a game that is perfect in the eyes of its fans. They can't keep their fingers out of the pie. As they did with Mario Kart. People weren't happy to put in a little time to learn the higher level techniques and complained, instead of just playing casually with other casual players. I for one have never been upset when a person playing to win beat me when I was just playing for fun. So I don't understand it. But that is Nintendo. Forever turning their backs on the gamers, and doing what the mother of four want's.

Nah, I don't think that Nintendo turns their backs on fans, there is plenty of proof that that isn't the case and some can be found in this year's E3 with two examples called Metroid Prime 4 and Metroid Samus Returns. They do however have their screw ups and stupid decisions but that doesn't mean that they don't deliver on a constant basis.

Also, would Nintendo be stealing if they take a fan project that was created utilizing their assets from their own games? Because that seems like a double faced mentality when in actuality the fan is taking an existing work and altering it for their own sake. And I don't want to downplay the work that people do on mods and fan games but I'm sure it takes more effort to create the actual engine and assets rather than borrowing them from an existing game.

And I'm pretty sure that no one is mad at Nintendo for "fiddling" with Mario Kart 8. If you are talking about Fire Hopping then I feel you overvalue the importance of it's removal since it doesn't detriment the meta of game from a competitive aspect overall. That isn't really an issue that should be taken seriously. Plus, Lord knows Melee could use some adjustments to fix some technical oversights like Kirby's throws and Mewtwo's Confusion.

 

Nah, I don't think that Nintendo turns their backs on fans, there is plenty of proof that that isn't the case and some can be found in this year's E3 with two examples called Metroid Prime 4 and Metroid Samus Returns. They do however have their screw ups and stupid decisions but that doesn't mean that they don't deliver on a constant basis.

Also, would Nintendo be stealing if they take a fan project that was created utilizing their assets from their own games? Because that seems like a double faced mentality when in actuality the fan is taking an existing work and altering it for their own sake. And I don't want to downplay the work that people do on mods and fan games but I'm sure it takes more effort to create the actual engine and assets rather than borrowing them from an existing game.

And I'm pretty sure that no one is mad at Nintendo for "fiddling" with Mario Kart 8. If you are talking about Fire Hopping then I feel you overvalue the importance of it's removal since it doesn't detriment the meta of game from a competitive aspect overall. That isn't really an issue that should be taken seriously. Plus, Lord knows Melee could use some adjustments to fix some technical oversights like Kirby's throws and Mewtwo's Confusion.

Don't even try to bring Metroid into this. It's our first time getting a potentially good Metroid game in 11 years. (Prime 4 isn't planned for release until 2018.) If you wanna talk that, take it to Metroid-Database or /r/metroid

 

Don't even try to bring Metroid into this. It's our first time getting a potentially good Metroid game in 11 years. (Prime 4 isn't planned for release until 2018.) If you wanna talk that, take it to Metroid-Database or /r/metroid

Relax bro, I was making a point relevant to the discussion I was having with the other user, so in no way this detracts from the from the general matter at hand. And besides, unless I'm breaking a rule (which I'm not) and you are a mod in charge (which you aren't) you have no business telling me what can I or cannot discuss. If a line of text mentioning Metroid bothered you that much then there is always the door.

 

Relax bro, I was making a point relevant to the discussion I was having with the other user, so in no way this detracts from the from the general matter at hand. And besides, unless I'm breaking a rule (which I'm not) and you are a mod in charge (which you aren't) you have no business telling me what can I or cannot discuss. If a line of text mentioning Metroid bothered you that much then there is always the door.

u seem to have taken that a little bit too seriously. though it is hard to convey emotions over a block of text. you didn't break a rule, nintendo did. The rules of my heart and love for metroid that is...

 

Nah, I don't think that Nintendo turns their backs on fans, there is plenty of proof that that isn't the case and some can be found in this year's E3 with two examples called Metroid Prime 4 and Metroid Samus Returns. They do however have their screw ups and stupid decisions but that doesn't mean that they don't deliver on a constant basis.

Also, would Nintendo be stealing if they take a fan project that was created utilizing their assets from their own games? Because that seems like a double faced mentality when in actuality the fan is taking an existing work and altering it for their own sake. And I don't want to downplay the work that people do on mods and fan games but I'm sure it takes more effort to create the actual engine and assets rather than borrowing them from an existing game.

And I'm pretty sure that no one is mad at Nintendo for "fiddling" with Mario Kart 8. If you are talking about Fire Hopping then I feel you overvalue the importance of it's removal since it doesn't detriment the meta of game from a competitive aspect overall. That isn't really an issue that should be taken seriously. Plus, Lord knows Melee could use some adjustments to fix some technical oversights like Kirby's throws and Mewtwo's Confusion.

Its taking without paying, so its stealing. I didn't mean anything by it other than them taking something made and not having to work on it.

Taking out fire hopping changed the Meta a lot. New Meta is being developed of course, but that extra height on the ceiling is what made it so appealing. I still play and compete in Mario Kart 8DX. But the better players that made it really enjoyable are gone. Because anybody can learn how to press the accelerate button in a few seconds. Fire hopping and Daemon sliding at least took a few minutes to perfect. And unfortunately there are those who didn't want to take the time to learn a skill that made them better and would rather go into a competitive environment and complain it wasn't fair for casuals. If you played MK and used the "advanced" techniques you would know it was more fun when you had things you could do that added more skill to be tested between players.

MP has taken years to come to light. They turned there backs on fans and instead released a bunch of altered nonsense or re-released a bunch of old games. It was OK, I like HD remakes, but nothing was done for the fans and it was blatantly money grabbing. Nintendo had a poor showing at E3 this year. But so did everybody. I will support Nintendo till the day I die. Because it's what I grew up with. Not really, we didn't have Nintendo. We had Chinese machines that played Chinese copies of Nintendo games. But the franchises were there, the cartoons were there and the love was there. I got my Switch day 1. As I have and will get all the games I want day 1. But I am in no way happy with the way Nintendo takes something great that they have made and changes it for no good reason except money.

 

Its taking without paying, so its stealing. I didn't mean anything by it other than them taking something made and not having to work on it.

I guess those fans who took existing works and altered them (Project M, AMR2, etc.) are stealing then. They literally take someone else's work and modify it for their personal agendas. "taking something made and not having to work on it.", read slowly and clearly what you are saying here. How is that something that they didn't made when those fans are obviously taking a game and modding over it?
Also, what examples of Nintendo "stealing" these works and making money out of it do you know of? Because I'm sure that is something you are making up on the spot since I don't recall them ever doing that.

Taking out fire hopping changed the Meta a lot. New Meta is being developed of course, but that extra height on the ceiling is what made it so appealing. I still play and compete in Mario Kart 8DX. But the better players that made it really enjoyable are gone. Because anybody can learn how to press the accelerate button in a few seconds. Fire hopping and Daemon sliding at least took a few minutes to perfect. And unfortunately there are those who didn't want to take the time to learn a skill that made them better and would rather go into a competitive environment and complain it wasn't fair for casuals. If you played MK and used the "advanced" techniques you would know it was more fun when you had things you could do that added more skill to be tested between players.

I honestly doubt it. Firehopping is not as integral as Wavedashing. That tech could literally go by unnoticed by most and I'm pretty sure that most people didn't care much about it's removal in the port, unlike the removal of Wavedash in Brawl onwards. As for the players who dropped the game because of it's removal... please, that's acting very childish. If that's what it took for them to stop playing MK then I doubt they liked the game that much in the first place. People being over-dramatic like that is hardly something worth taking seriously.
Besides, while anybody can learn to accelerate it still takes skill (and some luck at times) to win races consistently. The better players can be easily distinguished from the rest because of their mastery of the course, control of their kart, item management and knowing their vehicle combination. The lack of Firehopping didn't really reduce the gap between them and the more casual players by a significant degree.

MP has taken years to come to light. They turned there backs on fans and instead released a bunch of altered nonsense or re-released a bunch of old games. It was OK, I like HD remakes, but nothing was done for the fans and it was blatantly money grabbing. Nintendo had a poor showing at E3 this year. But so did everybody. I will support Nintendo till the day I die. Because it's what I grew up with. Not really, we didn't have Nintendo. We had Chinese machines that played Chinese copies of Nintendo games. But the franchises were there, the cartoons were there and the love was there. I got my Switch day 1. As I have and will get all the games I want day 1. But I am in no way happy with the way Nintendo takes something great that they have made and changes it for no good reason except money.

Actually, Nintendo had a pretty good showing this year and the fact that two Metroid games are on the pipeline proves your claim wrong, regardless of how long it took. They could have played safe and just stick to Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and Fire Emblem but they threw a curve ball for the people who wanted a Metroid game. And again, this is just one example out of the many I could list but don't care to right now. The fact that they don't do anything for the fans is just a blatant lie, and a knee jerk response from those whose personal wants and wishes don't get fulfilled. Case in point, people in this thread actually saying that Nintendo "doesn't do what fans wants" because there is no Melee HD, or you trying blow out of proportion the removal of firehopping. It's just incredible laughable.
And are you suggesting that there are no new games? Because I'm pretty sure there have been plenty of new ones released and more to come later this year. Isn't that what the fans want? And what altered non sense you are talking about? Fans wanted a new Zelda game and they got it. Fans want a new Mario game and they are going to get it. Fans also asked for the return of Metroid and we are finally gonna get it, but according to you they turned their back on the fans? Sorry, but your logic doesn't make sense.
By the way, they are also a business. They make games so they can sell them and make money out them; this has never been a secret and there is nothing wrong with that. But you seem to have a problem with them selling games in exchange of *gasp* money. What gives?

 

Of course they wont legally be allowed to use the names and characters.

You people... You just don't understand...

 

I guess those fans who took existing works and altered them (Project M, AMR2, etc.) are stealing then. They literally take someone else's work and modify it for their personal agendas. "taking something made and not having to work on it.", read slowly and clearly what you are saying here.

Yes, the fans are stealing. For the exact reason you gave. Taking somebody else's work.

Also, what examples of Nintendo "stealing" these works and making money out of it do you know of? Because I'm sure that is something you are making up on the spot since I don't recall them ever doing that.

I don't know of any. Which is probably why I didn't say they had done it. I did try to make what I meant a little clearer for you by stating that I was saying they could just take one of those projects and release it without having to pay the moders for anything. My apologies if you can't grasp what I was saying and you got hung up on one phrase and refuse to try understand what was meant behind it. So perhaps just move on.

I honestly doubt it. Firehopping is not as integral as Wavedashing. That tech could literally go by unnoticed by most and I'm pretty sure that most people didn't care much about it's removal in the port, unlike the removal of Wavedash in Brawl onwards. As for the players who dropped the game because of it's removal... please, that's acting very childish. If that's what it took for them to stop playing MK then I doubt they liked the game that much in the first place. People being over-dramatic like that is hardly something worth taking seriously.

I don't see why it isn't as integral. It was an exploit that wasn't intentionally designed into the game that players were taking advantage of to be more competitive and draw more out of the game than what was on surface level. People loved the game and a lot of people loved the added fun they got from being able to do stuff while playing. It clearly couldn't go unnoticed as fans of fire-hopping have expressed. Yes they were in the minority, but that is the same case with Brawl and wave dashing. People didn't like how it was changed and went back to Melee. And the over-dramatic people are the ones to take seriously, because they are the ones to take the games seriously enough to be the right amount of dramatic when the aren't happy.

Besides, while anybody can learn to accelerate it still takes skill (and some luck at times) to win races consistently. The better players can be easily distinguished from the rest because of their mastery of the course, control of their kart, item management and knowing their vehicle combination. The lack of Firehopping didn't really reduce the gap between them and the more casual players by a significant degree.

The lack of fire-hopping reduce the gap considerably. Of course you can still see who is better. Its the same with Brawl, the gap was reduced, and you can still see who is trying to be better than the rest. All the things you mentioned about what makes a better player are things that are present in all MK games. Control of their kart and mastery of the course isn't a new thing to pop up in MK8DX. It's standard stuff anybody wanting to play needs to take into account. And they can compare there kart control against another. But the extra stuff that was there, that added more variables to compare between players has been removed. And that has taking a massive competitive edge away from the game. If you were a kart player who used those techniques with other kart players who also used those techniques, you would notice them being gone. If you were a casual who got wrecked by payers using those techniques when you didn't want to learn then, then you would be sour about losing and happy that they have been removed. But they didn't need to be. Because they were only used by competitive people wanting to be competitive. Casuals were being just as casual with the techniques being there as there are with them not being there.

Actually, Nintendo had a pretty good showing this year and the fact that two Metroid games are on the pipeline proves your claim wrong, regardless of how long it took. They could have played safe and just stick to Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and Fire Emblem but they threw a curve ball for the people who wanted a Metroid game. And again, this is just one example out of the many I could list but don't care to right now.

Perhaps you should list them, because there was nothing exciting bar one or two titles. And then a whole bunch of old stuff they have shown all ready. It was a poor showing. I am sorry I said something negative about your beloved Nintendo. It doesn't change anything though. It was weak when it came to exclusives. I am excited for Metroid, even though nothing was shown except a title screen. And Xenoblade 2 which has taken far to long. But what else. I can't even recall any other exclusives they showed because if there were any they were probably dull.

The fact that they don't do anything for the fans is just a blatant lie, and a knee jerk response from those whose personal wants and wishes don't get fulfilled. Case in point, people in this thread actually saying that Nintendo "doesn't do what fans wants" because there is no Melee HD, or you trying blow out of proportion the removal of firehopping. It's just incredible laughable.

Then you can laugh. All you want. I literally wont stop you laughing. But those people getting upset with how lame Nintendo has been are the fans. They are sticking behind the big N crying for something better because they are sick of low quality offerings or Nintendo focusing on the masses who buy their products as something for their extremely young kids. OR people who buy into the gimicks and then get bored. Like the hordes who picked up a Wii and got Wii sports and no other games for the rest of the consoles life. The fans are very vocal about wanting a Melee HD. The community isn't some small gathering Nintendo doesn't notice. Nintendo is intentionally not giving the fans what they are asking for.

Again, fire-hopping was a huge part of why the competitive scene got so dam big. Just as its the exploits in Melee that got it the cult following it has. It's unfortunate you can't see that. And that you think its a big important part of one Nintendo game, but ignore-able in the other. Its as if you are just trying to find things to complain about.

And are you suggesting that there are no new games? Because I'm pretty sure there have been plenty of new ones released and more to come later this year. Isn't that what the fans want? And what altered non sense you are talking about? Fans wanted a new Zelda game and they got it. Fans want a new Mario game and they are going to get it. Fans also asked for the return of Metroid and we are finally gonna get it, but according to you they turned their back on the fans? Sorry, but your logic doesn't make sense.

I didn't suggest there were no new games, so I don't know why you are upset about that. There has been some new games released and more are coming, you are correct, though I didn't say there weren't. Fans always want those games and they will always get those games. those are Nintendos staple and will always appear very early in the consoles life. When I say they are turning there backs on the fans I am referring to how the vocal fans, who have directly asked them for what they wanted, have been ignored for so long. Nobody needs to ask for a new Zelda. You will never be without one. And by altered I am talking about how Brawl and Kart and other titles that people exploited to be competitive, have been altered in there subsequent releases to intentionally not be as competitive. I was clear about that. Perhaps I may wright to much and you just don't want to read it all. But I am also sorry about that. It was rude for me to make a joke about stealing to make a silly point
that I thought people would be able to grasp. And it was rude for me to also clearly state my thoughts and expect people to be able to grasp them as well. I should not have believed you, or others would have bothered to read everything and take it in before getting so upset.

By the way, they are also a business. They make games so they can sell them and make money out them; this has never been a secret and there is nothing wrong with that. But you seem to have a problem with them selling games in exchange of *gasp* money. What gives?

Again, you are correct. It is very perceptive of you to notice that they are a business. I commend you are you "able to know the obvious" skills. I feel heart broken that I don't have an "I state the obvious" award to give to you, because you do clearly deserve it. Not only have you been able to tell me that they Nintendo hasn't stolen anything, when I hadn't said they had. Or managed to tell me new games have come, when I hadn't said that new games haven't. You have also been able to let me know they are a business. It may come as a shock to you, but I also know they are a business. It appears you are correct again, it wasn't a secret.

Of course they are a business, and of course they do what they do for money. And I have no problem with that. Because if they didn't do things to get our money, they wouldn't get our money. And without our money they wouldn't be able to make more games. And that would be bad, because they would then fail as a business. But it doesn't mean they always care about the fans, or make the games for the fans. A case relevant to the site and what has been previously mentioned is Brawl. They made a game the fans wanted, in name, but changed it so much because they had a problem with the way the fans were playing the games. Nintendo has to target the masses and casuals to make the money to keep going. But they don't always have to target the masses. They could show their love for the fans from time to time by making the games the fans want the way the fans want them. As the used to do. Nintendo had a very small target market when they started in gaming and for the first few years of their focus on gaming. Its those games and titles that exploded them into the position they are in. And those games are still being re made in new iterations today, for everybody, so we are all happy. Except when we think back at how Nintendo no longer cares to target the specific group of people that helped get them passed that early hump of gaming, it gets a little personal. Any real fan will tell you that.

Apologies to all for the Essay. I didn't expect that. And apologies to Ryu. I did expect to much from you to be on a high enough level to understand what had been said before lashing out at me with your redundant responses to things I didn't actually say. Perhaps I am being insensitive and English isn't your first language. In which case all my sarcastic apologies are not intended to upset you and I am honestly sorry.

Expand the quoted section to see my responses.