MELEE HD FOR SWITCH

[NoWolfPack]

Hey just wanted to have a serious look into the production of Melee HD/ 20XX.
This will be mostly composed of my ideas but I would love any feed back people are willing to give!

First off we have to establish that Nintendo is a company that is full of devs that want to create something new rather than using old mechanics or releasing a remastered version with no changes what so ever. Things like amiibos and new controllers are just something we might have to deal with. The Nintendo Switch provides a lot of possibilities that can very interesting for the smash community. The Switch itself even though it is a smaller screen comparatively but running tournaments would be a breeze if people were to bring them in. Also the potential to have a tournament with the prize of being immortalized with an amiibo of the victor. As well as some of the following ideas:

1) No Nerfs
Generally people will be upset because somethings in this game seem broken and should be fixed blah blah blah, however people often are more upset when they put in the time to learn a character an then he becomes useless especially if they have been playing this character for 15 years +. This would also mean Gamecube Controllers would need an adapter and also if we could settle on a solid regulated model of Hax's controller.

2) Buffs for ALL
Going on the most agreed upon tier list every character will receive a buff from top to bottom. Characters on the Top of the tier list will have less of a buff opposed to the bottom which will need several. This may sound threatening at first but instead of messing with each character and changing there structure we will give them a separate function called 20XX mode if a character is being selected while holding R you will instead select the 20XX version where the character will have a buff based on what is deemed appropriate. Buffs will not usually be a increase of damage or knock back but a new form of tech or skill that can be a little bit difficult. People are often upset when one button kills are added to a character so this will likely be a combination but I will go in depth later. Buffs will also include 2-4 New neutral stages developed from the ground up I have many ideas about this but it will also have to tested against the new character buffs.

3) All Original Modes Plus New Content
All of the original game should still be in contact without question, Maybe a new classic or all star mode with better AI rather than changing the handicap when played on harder difficulties. Being able to use the C stick in all game modes. A tournament function that allows you to set up rule set and have a copy-able code to transfer to all other systems in use to make TO's lives a little easier they can also toggle if its only original characters or if any 20XX variations will be available. A training mode specific for each character that focuses on tech that has been discovered over the past 17 years, giving five different levels to a mini game at the end that will record your score and be displayed to others that view your profile in the form of a trophy. For example one of Fox's mini games will be a multi shine contest and have leader boards or Captain Falcon could have a large wall and see how many scar jumps possible if you receiving a bronze trophy all the way to platinum. New colors and Skins should be available for all characters as well as skins accepting the change of all new colors in order for people to show there individuality. Skins can either be themed or based on memorable people who have played the character Examples being: DJ Bowser, Peoples Champ Falcon, King of Smash Marth.

4) ONLINE, CRTs and PATCHES
Online will only be done if it is playable similar to how online functions on anthers ladder. Online should have a for glory mode a party mode and maybe a melee classic for glory where no 20XX characters can be played. THE GAME MUST WORK EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS ON CRTS. This is super important, probably the most important thing the inputs on the controller must be 1 to 1 as they are displayed on screen no exceptions this means graphics are less important than keeping the original play style. Patches will be voted upon because I believe in the community and the choices will be either A) One patch that will happen half a year to a year after initial release to fix any major bugs or any game breaking abilities. B) No patch melee is game that has lasted without patching and I think that should be the standard for all changes to this version, also I want the ability for people to ban characters based on what the TO decides nothing to crazy just the power to do as they see fit.

5) IN-Depth Character Changes
These will either be based on MagicScrumpy's Tas or The original content in which the Character cam from. Low tiers will not be sought to be flipped to be top of the tier list but rather re-purpose them for doubles: The next frontier of melee. Starting with the more drastic changes first...

Pichu:
-Evolution: Pichu should no longer damage him/herself (I think that is a given)
-For teams purposes Pichu should be given Electric Synchronization: Meaning within a certain time period of a character being hit with an electric based move if Pichu is able to follow up in the time frame with their own electric based move on the same character the character will be stunned for a short period of time. Moves that will synchronize with Pichu: Falcon's Knee. Doc's F-smash. Ness' B-air, PK Pulse etc.

Kirby:
-Kirby should either have his more traditional copy abilities that change his move set example being inhaling Marth should give Kirby the Sword Kirby move set, inhaling Mario should be Fire Kirby ect. Or Kirby should be able to choose which ability he copies Example being Shine.
-For teams purposes while a character is inhaled they should be able to charge a smash or special move and release it when Kirby exhales.

Roy:
-Fire emblem has always been one of my favorite games and I have always disliked how a game about many different weapon types always gets represented in Smash with a sword fighter that is why I came up with...
-Re-Class: Roy will Re-class from a Lord to a Hero, This means using the D pad he can change between a sword and an axe. An Axe would fit perfect for Roy's range and eliminate his distance in exchange for power but could also lead to a projectile as a throwing Axe.
-For teams purposes Roy should obtain Blazing Sword: Much like Pichu's Electric Synchronization Roy will be given a Fire Synchronization same objectives must be met with fire moves and will result in slight damage over time or the burn effect. It will synchronize with moves such as: Mario's fire ball, or F-smash. Falcon's Recovery, F-smash, Falcon punch or Falcon kick etc.

Mr. Game & Watch:
-Game & Watch should have his shield size increased
-All of the aerials should be L-Canceled
-Game & Watch's Hammer should have a follow up for each Number and if the player can react fast enough to the number they would then get the follow up

Mewtwo, Yoshi and Ness:
-Arguably two of My worst characters are Mewtwo and Ness I have no ideas what to do with either of them but I believe there to be more potential in Ness based on what I have seen from him when played by Hbox.
-The only piece of tech that might be useful for all three is potentially pivoting while shielding, it seems like broken tech but they are so far down the list that it shouldn't matter much (not including yoshi) Yoshi does have terrible out of shield game but making him able to jump out of shield may lose his parry ability so pivoting in shield may be the next best thing.
-Also possibly vertical tech jump : a new tech option that works similar to a ledge jump just as an added mix-up for teching, note that this can be preformed when knocked down on stage and not a wall jump tech. This might be more suitable for the Mario Brothers and company so it might be solely for them.
-Any Ideas would be most appreciated

Zelda:
-With most Zelda characters I believe there theme should be resourcefulness and keeping with in that theme there is a running joke of how Zelda's down B is the best in the game because it raises her a ton of spots in the tier list... But what if we actually made it the best down B in the game. What if we change it to an instant cast with no lag so she can go from Zelda and continue her combo into Sheik. This would make her more in line with dual character that was originally intended. Keep in mind that Sheik's Transformation back into Zelda will still be the original one because that would be way to big of a buff to a character already too high on the list.

Bowser, Ganondorf and DK or Heavies:
-Heavies are very read based and are able to out put huge damage when they make the correct read but they have no way to compete with projectiles for the most part so Bowser and/or Ganon should get a projectile. Bowsers could replace his neutral B with a large slow moving fire ball that resembles his projectiles from other Mario games where as Ganon could fire a Energy Ball similar to how he does in every Legend of Zelda game, if it can be reflected back and become a game of tennis is up for discussion. Donkey Kong is kinda fast but he could counter by having a dash attack roll similar to the style he uses in his games, maybe it could even have super armor but that might be a little broken.
-To build on Heavies getting big rewards for big reads I think Chargeable aerials would be perfect for all of these characters. This might mean cutting down some start up times on longer aerials such as Bowser's U-air but will decrease the initial damage until fully charged.
-Ganon's Up tilt should be cancel-able this might lead to some cool looking movement if used properly.




This is only the start I have plenty of more ideas that I will add in the near future ...
Thanks for the reads

 

[Megadoomer]

My concern is that any changes, no matter how minor, would cause the competitive community to wholeheartedly reject the game. I'm not heavy into the competitive scene, but this is a group of people who still use CRT TVs because more modern TVs have a fraction of a second difference when it comes to registering inputs.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I'd be satisfied with a simple port. The rest seems like stuff to ask for in a future game that uses physics similar to those of Melee.

 

[NoWolfPack]

My concern is that any changes, no matter how minor, would cause the competitive community to wholeheartedly reject the game. I'm not heavy into the competitive scene, but this is a group of people who still use CRT TVs because more modern TVs have a fraction of a second difference when it comes to registering inputs.

Yeah i know im one of those people hahaha , Thats why I would love to have the game still there if people decide thats what they want in the end. It would still be at its core a port but it would add extra content that could be disabled if it is seen as broken or generally unpopular

I'd be satisfied with a simple port. The rest seems like stuff to ask for in a future game that uses physics similar to those of Melee.

Yeah I would be happy with a port to I just dont believe nintendo would do this unless they get to add some of there own creative edge.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please don't double post. Just edit a quote in or try to reply to more than one message at once. You're not limited on how many quotes per post.

------------

Anyway, if they can't throw it on the VC regular without issues(the Gamecube Controller, from my understanding, doesn't work to its full potential on the Switch, as the L/R buttons don't have the full option of a light or hard press like with the Gamecube itself), an HD port sounds fine to me. Besides making all the trophies from the Japanese version available, simply adding a bit more seems fine too(like all 6 Sages), and possibly finishing up any beta stages they ideally had, like a Fire Emblem one. Obviously any game-breaking glitches can be addressed, and most importantly, making Wavedashing useful for everyone, instead of being an oversight in the game's engine. Make it as a full mechanic, so every character gets specific bursts of speed from it. This would balance out the game and breathe even more life into it(not that the original isn't extremely active).

Besides that, maybe allowing some of the NPC's available as playable during certain modes could be fun. In the case of Master Hand and Crazy Hand, redo their controls and make the only stage available as Final Destination. The other 3 work easily well by default, though some programming changes would be required. Only issues at best could be target tests, but they could just make 3 new ones?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll never really get why people want a high-definition Melee. I get that it's one of the most competitive Smash Bros. titles, but it also has very bad balancing, where only a few fighters are truly viable; Bowser is just so bad, being arguably worse than Pichu and Kirby.

And let's not forget that Mewtwo had to be remade from scratch for Smash 3DS / Wii U.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

For me, the appeal of a Melee port is being able to play on digital TVs, online play, ability to hack it, and more growth of the competitive scene.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Only if it has Diddy Kong

 

[PsychoJosh]

Nintendo has absolutely no reason to make this game. I think they would be foolish to actually seriously consider doing it, because it's a losing proposition on ALL fronts.

Firstly, the casual audience will not be interested in Melee HD for a number of reasons. Among these is the roster, which has no cool third party characters like Sonic, Bayonetta, Cloud or Megaman, and just consists mostly of retro Nintendo characters. This makes the game seem obsolete and redundant, because Smash 4 has all those characters, in addition to a number of new and popular Nintendo characters, such as Dedede, Meta Knight Olimar, Diddy Kong and Rosalina. Casuals will find the roster of Melee to be deeply lacking in comparison to that of Smash 4 and will not see the appeal.

The other reason casuals won't want to pick it up is because of the skill gap between casual and competitive players. In order to play the game online, casuals will have to learn how techniques like wavedashing and L-canceling just to be able to stand a chance, and also limit their character selection pool to one of the 5 or 6 viable characters, which will instantly turn them away. Without intricate knowledge of the game there's no chance that a casual who wants to play as Donkey Kong or Mr. Game and Watch will stand a ghost of a chance against a competitive Fox or Marth player who knows the intricacies of the games mechanics.

So, inevitably, Melee HD has a major "casual appeal" problem right out of the gate. So what does Nintendo do? They update the game with new content, such as new characters and balance fixes, but then you get complaints from the competitive audience that this isn't the "true Melee experience". The changes Nintendo makes to the core game inevitably makes the game more casual and outright removes the mechanics that they see as bugs/exploits, and they release the corrected version. This infuriates the competitive playerbase who were requesting the game to be made to begin with, and they drop the game.

Nintendo has to choose between alienating one playerbase for the sake of the other. On the one hand they will have a largely disinterested casual base who might play the game if they update it with new content and make the game easier for them to enjoy. But on the other hand they have the competitive base who demands the game to be released as-is, only with the addition of online play and updated graphics. And if Nintendo plans to release a brand new Smash game for the switch, then updating Melee to also be on the Switch would have the side effect of cannibalizing their own game's sales, because there would now be two "new" Smash games on the Switch, each with their own mechanics to learn. So neither game sells as much as they could and Nintendo just loses money in every aspect.

Melee HD has no ability to justify its existence. So I think Nintendo would just be better off forgetting about it and going straight to Smash 5.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The other reason casuals won't want to pick it up is because of the skill gap between casual and competitive players. In order to play the game online

This only makes sense if there is no competent matchmaking online. Otherwise, casuals would simply be matched with casuals.

 

[-*-Grumbolaya-*-]

Hey just wanted to have a serious look into the production of Melee HD/ 20XX.
This will be mostly composed of my ideas but I would love any feed back people are willing to give!

First off we have to establish that Nintendo is a company that is full of devs that want to create something new rather than using old mechanics or releasing a remastered version with no changes what so ever. Things like amiibos and new controllers are just something we might have to deal with. The Nintendo Switch provides a lot of possibilities that can very interesting for the smash community. The Switch itself even though it is a smaller screen comparatively but running tournaments would be a breeze if people were to bring them in. Also the potential to have a tournament with the prize of being immortalized with an amiibo of the victor. As well as some of the following ideas:

1) No Nerfs
Generally people will be upset because somethings in this game seem broken and should be fixed blah blah blah, however people often are more upset when they put in the time to learn a character an then he becomes useless especially if they have been playing this character for 15 years +. This would also mean Gamecube Controllers would need an adapter and also if we could settle on a solid regulated model of Hax's controller.

2) Buffs for ALL
Going on the most agreed upon tier list every character will receive a buff from top to bottom. Characters on the Top of the tier list will have less of a buff opposed to the bottom which will need several. This may sound threatening at first but instead of messing with each character and changing there structure we will give them a separate function called 20XX mode if a character is being selected while holding R you will instead select the 20XX version where the character will have a buff based on what is deemed appropriate. Buffs will not usually be a increase of damage or knock back but a new form of tech or skill that can be a little bit difficult. People are often upset when one button kills are added to a character so this will likely be a combination but I will go in depth later. Buffs will also include 2-4 New neutral stages developed from the ground up I have many ideas about this but it will also have to tested against the new character buffs.

3) All Original Modes Plus New Content
All of the original game should still be in contact without question, Maybe a new classic or all star mode with better AI rather than changing the handicap when played on harder difficulties. Being able to use the C stick in all game modes. A tournament function that allows you to set up rule set and have a copy-able code to transfer to all other systems in use to make TO's lives a little easier they can also toggle if its only original characters or if any 20XX variations will be available. A training mode specific for each character that focuses on tech that has been discovered over the past 17 years, giving five different levels to a mini game at the end that will record your score and be displayed to others that view your profile in the form of a trophy. For example one of Fox's mini games will be a multi shine contest and have leader boards or Captain Falcon could have a large wall and see how many scar jumps possible if you receiving a bronze trophy all the way to platinum. New colors and Skins should be available for all characters as well as skins accepting the change of all new colors in order for people to show there individuality. Skins can either be themed or based on memorable people who have played the character Examples being: DJ Bowser, Peoples Champ Falcon, King of Smash Marth.

4) ONLINE, CRTs and PATCHES
Online will only be done if it is playable similar to how online functions on anthers ladder. Online should have a for glory mode a party mode and maybe a melee classic for glory where no 20XX characters can be played. THE GAME MUST WORK EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS ON CRTS. This is super important, probably the most important thing the inputs on the controller must be 1 to 1 as they are displayed on screen no exceptions this means graphics are less important than keeping the original play style. Patches will be voted upon because I believe in the community and the choices will be either A) One patch that will happen half a year to a year after initial release to fix any major bugs or any game breaking abilities. B) No patch melee is game that has lasted without patching and I think that should be the standard for all changes to this version, also I want the ability for people to ban characters based on what the TO decides nothing to crazy just the power to do as they see fit.

5) IN-Depth Character Changes
These will either be based on MagicScrumpy's Tas or The original content in which the Character cam from. Low tiers will not be sought to be flipped to be top of the tier list but rather re-purpose them for doubles: The next frontier of melee. Starting with the more drastic changes first...

Pichu:
-Evolution: Pichu should no longer damage him/herself (I think that is a given)
-For teams purposes Pichu should be given Electric Synchronization: Meaning within a certain time period of a character being hit with an electric based move if Pichu is able to follow up in the time frame with their own electric based move on the same character the character will be stunned for a short period of time. Moves that will synchronize with Pichu: Falcon's Knee. Doc's F-smash. Ness' B-air, PK Pulse etc.

Kirby:
-Kirby should either have his more traditional copy abilities that change his move set example being inhaling Marth should give Kirby the Sword Kirby move set, inhaling Mario should be Fire Kirby ect. Or Kirby should be able to choose which ability he copies Example being Shine.
-For teams purposes while a character is inhaled they should be able to charge a smash or special move and release it when Kirby exhales.

Roy:
-Fire emblem has always been one of my favorite games and I have always disliked how a game about many different weapon types always gets represented in Smash with a sword fighter that is why I came up with...
-Re-Class: Roy will Re-class from a Lord to a Hero, This means using the D pad he can change between a sword and an axe. An Axe would fit perfect for Roy's range and eliminate his distance in exchange for power but could also lead to a projectile as a throwing Axe.
-For teams purposes Roy should obtain Blazing Sword: Much like Pichu's Electric Synchronization Roy will be given a Fire Synchronization same objectives must be met with fire moves and will result in slight damage over time or the burn effect. It will synchronize with moves such as: Mario's fire ball, or F-smash. Falcon's Recovery, F-smash, Falcon punch or Falcon kick etc.

Mr. Game & Watch:
-Game & Watch should have his shield size increased
-All of the aerials should be L-Canceled
-Game & Watch's Hammer should have a follow up for each Number and if the player can react fast enough to the number they would then get the follow up

Mewtwo, Yoshi and Ness:
-Arguably two of My worst characters are Mewtwo and Ness I have no ideas what to do with either of them but I believe there to be more potential in Ness based on what I have seen from him when played by Hbox.
-The only piece of tech that might be useful for all three is potentially pivoting while shielding, it seems like broken tech but they are so far down the list that it shouldn't matter much (not including yoshi) Yoshi does have terrible out of shield game but making him able to jump out of shield may lose his parry ability so pivoting in shield may be the next best thing.
-Also possibly vertical tech jump : a new tech option that works similar to a ledge jump just as an added mix-up for teching, note that this can be preformed when knocked down on stage and not a wall jump tech. This might be more suitable for the Mario Brothers and company so it might be solely for them.
-Any Ideas would be most appreciated

Zelda:
-With most Zelda characters I believe there theme should be resourcefulness and keeping with in that theme there is a running joke of how Zelda's down B is the best in the game because it raises her a ton of spots in the tier list... But what if we actually made it the best down B in the game. What if we change it to an instant cast with no lag so she can go from Zelda and continue her combo into Sheik. This would make her more in line with dual character that was originally intended. Keep in mind that Sheik's Transformation back into Zelda will still be the original one because that would be way to big of a buff to a character already too high on the list.

Bowser, Ganondorf and DK or Heavies:
-Heavies are very read based and are able to out put huge damage when they make the correct read but they have no way to compete with projectiles for the most part so Bowser and/or Ganon should get a projectile. Bowsers could replace his neutral B with a large slow moving fire ball that resembles his projectiles from other Mario games where as Ganon could fire a Energy Ball similar to how he does in every Legend of Zelda game, if it can be reflected back and become a game of tennis is up for discussion. Donkey Kong is kinda fast but he could counter by having a dash attack roll similar to the style he uses in his games, maybe it could even have super armor but that might be a little broken.
-To build on Heavies getting big rewards for big reads I think Chargeable aerials would be perfect for all of these characters. This might mean cutting down some start up times on longer aerials such as Bowser's U-air but will decrease the initial damage until fully charged.
-Ganon's Up tilt should be cancel-able this might lead to some cool looking movement if used properly.




This is only the start I have plenty of more ideas that I will add in the near future ...
Thanks for the reads

I think the only stage should be pokefloats and the only item should be Mr. Saturn and he should be required for tournaments.

 

[NoWolfPack]

Nintendo has absolutely no reason to make this game. I think they would be foolish to actually seriously consider doing it, because it's a losing proposition on ALL fronts.

Firstly, the casual audience will not be interested in Melee HD for a number of reasons. Among these is the roster, which has no cool third party characters like Sonic, Bayonetta, Cloud or Megaman, and just consists mostly of retro Nintendo characters. This makes the game seem obsolete and redundant, because Smash 4 has all those characters, in addition to a number of new and popular Nintendo characters, such as Dedede, Meta Knight Olimar, Diddy Kong and Rosalina. Casuals will find the roster of Melee to be deeply lacking in comparison to that of Smash 4 and will not see the appeal.

The other reason casuals won't want to pick it up is because of the skill gap between casual and competitive players. In order to play the game online, casuals will have to learn how techniques like wavedashing and L-canceling just to be able to stand a chance, and also limit their character selection pool to one of the 5 or 6 viable characters, which will instantly turn them away. Without intricate knowledge of the game there's no chance that a casual who wants to play as Donkey Kong or Mr. Game and Watch will stand a ghost of a chance against a competitive Fox or Marth player who knows the intricacies of the games mechanics.

Melee HD has no ability to justify its existence. So I think Nintendo would just be better off forgetting about it and going straight to Smash 5.

Hey PsychoJosh appreciate the loads of passion you're carrying with you. You made a lot of points that i thought about before making this post, I just believe that this is a chance to educate the casual on melee make it an easier learning experience so maybe some more people will pick it up. I dont believe you looked through the post that thoroughly though because I address a lot of this already, the current cast would stay that is for sure but the characters that are nonviable would get a buff so people would be able to choose the character that best suits them and also online can definitely be split between casual and hardcore and id love for features to be added solely for the casual players but my main focus was to get tournaments and competitive play on the same level as all other games melee already plays beside even though they have to carry around 18 year old equipment which is older than some of the people that use it haha. I also think a smash 5 should happen and i always look forward to who they are going to release next but just like any other nintendo franchise i believe a HD version should be made and if they were to inject some of my ideas it could possible prolong its life to my dying years which would be awesome. thanks for the input man!

This only makes sense if there is no competent matchmaking online. Otherwise, casuals would simply be matched with casuals.

Yeah absolutely if the online isnt done properly it would be better to leave it out rather than cause people grief but anthers ladder does a pretty good job with online currently and I would hope nintendo could step up their game!

 

[hAKLE]

did someone say gamecube controller support for the nintendo switch?

 

[ryuu seika]

So you seek to ruin Pichu and Kirby's unique gimmicks, while also taking the humour out of G&W's shield? You want to turn Roy into another Zeik fiasco? Add character specific mechanics?

All of this sounds like terrible design to me.