Mechanics similar to L-canceling in other games

[Quillion]

It seems that the only real complaint against L-canceling is that "other games don't insert arbitrary inputs just to give a small reward". So... let's see if the latter is true:

The Mario RPGs are famous for innovating Action Commands in RPGs (or are at least they are the most well-known for it), in which if you time your button presses you either take less damage or do more damage. And why does no one complain about this? Most other turn-based RPGs just have you select the input from a menu and be done with it. Isn't this a totally arbitrary addition to the game.

Apparently, the Tekken series has variations of certain special moves called "just frame" moves that generally have enhanced properties if you hit a button at the right time. I'm only going off of TVTropes' Action Commands page, though, so someone else will either have to vouch for or disprove me.

So I've just come to the conclusion that L-canceling is nothing more than an Action Command. And as seen on the Action Commands page on TVTropes, those are far from exclusive to Melee.

 

[Minato]

If we're going by Tekken, I wouldn't say they're small rewards. They're just frames because of how ridiculous the properties can get for certain moves. Even top level it's pretty impressive to see someone land consecutive just frames, so they're definitely not anywhere near frequent as L Cancels. If they were as easy, they'd definitely have to nerf some of them. They're also for certain specific moves instead of all across the board for aerials. So I can see the argument for auto L cancels as a way to streamline Smash for future entries (if the series continued to still have them).

More and more fighting games are trying to streamline things and make it a bit more friendly. Having advanced input buffer making easier links, not having to mash to tech in BB and P4, easier movement in Tekken 7, etc. I think a lot of these are good things to change. While I wouldn't want a game to be one without any sort of level of execution, I feel like it's good that developers look into what feels arbitrary for the goal of their game.

For RPGs, they're just a fun minigame to tack on to me. They don't belong in the same category as competitive fighters.

 

[Quillion]

Minato : So if L-canceling were easier, would the amount of lag reduction have to be nerfed too?

 

[finalark]

Minato : So if L-canceling were easier, would the amount of lag reduction have to be nerfed too?

Well, yeah. What you get out of something should be equal to the amount of effort you put into it. That's just game design 101.

 

[Minato]

Minato : So if L-canceling were easier, would the amount of lag reduction have to be nerfed too?

I mean, it's what happened to Smash 64 to Melee. The reward was way too good. So instead or decreasing the window of the timing to something strict, they nerfed the lag reduction to half instead. I feel like if L-Cancelling's window was increased while nerfing the lag reduction even further, then it'll definitely feel arbitrary rather than something of a reward.

Melee as it is is fine. It's a legacy game, so it's easy to accept how things are for me and it even works out for the game in some really weird ways. With that said, I don't think I'd really want that sort of feature done exactly for any other game. It's hard to think of a game that has something similar to L Cancels where it's the same input required across the board for a moveset. Usually something like this would be fine tuned to just a specific move, but nothing vast like all aerials.

 

[Quillion]

I mean, it's what happened to Smash 64 to Melee. The reward was way too good. So instead or decreasing the window of the timing to something strict, they nerfed the lag reduction to half instead. I feel like if L-Cancelling's window was increased while nerfing the lag reduction even further, then it'll definitely feel arbitrary rather than something of a reward.

Actually, they did reduce the window of timing. From 11 frames to 7 frames.

Melee as it is is fine. It's a legacy game, so it's easy to accept how things are for me and it even works out for the game in some really weird ways. With that said, I don't think I'd really want that sort of feature done exactly for any other game. It's hard to think of a game that has something similar to L Cancels where it's the same input required across the board for a moveset. Usually something like this would be fine tuned to just a specific move, but nothing vast like all aerials.

Keep in mind that Melee doesn't even have it across the board either. G&W can't L-cancel on three of his aerials.

 

[Frolossus]

gonna go with A-moving in RTS and mobas.
the idea is that you attack then quickly enter a movement command to cancel the backswing from your attack and allows you to move a little bit between attacks.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ryu's true specials in Smash 4 for the most part, and a handful of other things like arrow dancing with the Pits or starting with more charge on certain side specials by doing a smash input. Nothing game wide if that's what you're looking for, obviously.

Most people chalk up G&W's inability to L-cancel certain aerials up to Melee jank... He wouldn't be unbalanced if he could L-cancel those aerials, and I don't think there's any glitchy side effects either should you enable them.

 

[Tene_Sicarius]

Ryu's true specials in Smash 4 for the most part, and a handful of other things like arrow dancing with the Pits or starting with more charge on certain side specials by doing a smash input. Nothing game wide if that's what you're looking for, obviously.

Most people chalk up G&W's inability to L-cancel certain aerials up to Melee jank... He wouldn't be unbalanced if he could L-cancel those aerials, and I don't think there's any glitchy side effects either should you enable them.

I don't think Ryu's true inputs belong in this category. The main way I differentiate a mechanic from a superfluous input is if there's a reason to not always do it. For L-cancelling, there is no consequence to performing it (aside from adding a 40 frame window until you can vector cancel, but that's not enough to make it viable to not L-cancel). The OP mentioned Tekken and Mario RPG. For Tekken, that mechanic is just as superfluous as L-cancelling, but Mario RPG falls into the same category as teching. That is, the mechanic is controlled by your opponent, and they might trick you into putting in the input at the wrong time. At least the M&L games are; the original may have more in common with L-cancelling.

Getting back to Ryu, the main reason he shouldn't always use true inputs is because of staling. The true inputs are stronger, which makes them better for racking damage and as kill moves. However, you may want to save them for the the kill, or mix up using true and normal to keep the staleness down. Not only that, but the new buffering mechanics only allow one input to be pressed before you're free of a previous animation, meaning there's an additional four frame if using true inputs during a combo.

 

[Quillion]

I don't think Ryu's true inputs belong in this category. The main way I differentiate a mechanic from a superfluous input is if there's a reason to not always do it. For L-cancelling, there is no consequence to performing it (aside from adding a 40 frame window until you can vector cancel, but that's not enough to make it viable to not L-cancel). The OP mentioned Tekken and Mario RPG. For Tekken, that mechanic is just as superfluous as L-cancelling, but Mario RPG falls into the same category as teching. That is, the mechanic is controlled by your opponent, and they might trick you into putting in the input at the wrong time. At least the M&L games are; the original may have more in common with L-cancelling.

Only dodging/countering in the M&L games work that way. In all Mario RPGs, M&L included, you have to time your button presses when YOU are attacking to do more damage.

TOTALLY SUPERFLUOUS AND ARBITRARY RITE? Y WE NO JUST SELECT ATTACK 4 ALL DAMAGE AND B DONE WITH IT!? ****ING TRASH GAME DESIGN, ALPHADREAM AND INTSYS!

 

[LancerStaff]

Only dodging/countering in the M&L games work that way. In all Mario RPGs, M&L included, you have to time your button presses when YOU are attacking to do more damage.

TOTALLY SUPERFLUOUS AND ARBITRARY RITE? Y WE NO JUST SELECT ATTACK 4 ALL DAMAGE AND B DONE WITH IT!? ****ING TRASH GAME DESIGN, ALPHADREAM AND INTSYS!

Haven't played a PM in forever so I can't remember specifics, but in M&L it's more of a risk and reward system. In SS spending more BP would make them easier, and there was a natural progression of easier to harder attacks with progressively higher damage and BP costs. PiT did this with the cost of items. Then BIS onwards you're rewarded for performing commands correctly with the badge gauge filling up or earning more star points, on top of the easier to harder/less costly to more/weak to powerful dynamic. In Paper Jam the final Bros. Attacks do little damage if you mess up even slightly, and one in particular does none if you mistime even one press.

There's literally no reason to fail an L-cancel if you know about it, there's no alternative options to pick from, and there's nothing stopping a monkey from just spamming L until he lands, stripping out any and all counterplay to the action.

 

[Quillion]

LancerStaff : Ice Climbers.

Invalidated.

Honestly, though, the problem with Melee/64's brand of well-timed button presses isn't that it's bad in theory, but that it's completely underwhelming. At least in Tekken, your good timing gives you moves with enhanced properties. In Smash, you just get... lower landing lag. In that sense, it DOES feel arbitrary.

That's why there needs to be some sort of a replacement for L-canceling, probably with a better reward.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff : Ice Climbers.

Invalidated.

Honestly, though, the problem with Melee/64's brand of well-timed button presses isn't that it's bad in theory, but that it's completely underwhelming. At least in Tekken, your good timing gives you moves with enhanced properties. In Smash, you just get... lower landing lag. In that sense, it DOES feel arbitrary.

That's why there needs to be some sort of a replacement for L-canceling, probably with a better reward.

Just one character. I wouldn't let the rest of the game suffer from a poorly thought out mechanic for just one character.

There's literally no risk in attempting an L-cancel, and when you would L-cancel more often then not there's no choice involved. That's why it's a failure as a mechanic. More reward wouldn't help at all... It either needs a risk or a choice.

 

[Quillion]

Just one character. I wouldn't let the rest of the game suffer from a poorly thought out mechanic for just one character.

There's literally no risk in attempting an L-cancel, and when you would L-cancel more often then not there's no choice involved. That's why it's a failure as a mechanic. More reward wouldn't help at all... It either needs a risk or a choice.

Of course there's risk: you get more landing lag if you fail.

It's like if you fail a Just Frame in Tekken: you get a standard special move if you fail to input it right (a feat apparently harder than L-canceling).

 

[Tene_Sicarius]

Of course there's risk: you get more landing lag if you fail.

It's like if you fail a Just Frame in Tekken: you get a standard special move if you fail to input it right (a feat apparently harder than L-canceling).

That's the same with teching, but teching has a 40 frame cooldown if you miss the timing. There's no consequence for spamming the shield button before landing

 

[LancerStaff]

There's no risk in attempting the action over not trying at all.

The problem with the mechanic is that there's no good way to give it risk without making the window ridiculously tight and a significant penalty like 1.2x endlag, but if you did make it that demanding people would just be disgusted by the precision required.

Giving it a choice... Wouldn't mesh with Smash. Making some kind of L-cancel meter or depleting shields wouldn't work out.

Instead of dancing around trying to make this mechanic work you could just make it automatic and everybody would be better off. People don't want the mechanic, they just want the reward. Getting an immediate edge over an uninformed opponent or otherwise.

 

[Quillion]

LancerStaff : Face it man, Action Commands are a staple of all genres of gaming. You should take whatever makes the game more immersive rather than whine about it.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff : Face it man, Action Commands are a staple of all genres of gaming. You should take whatever makes the game more immersive rather than whine about it.

...Face what? I've already explained why Action Commands work and L-canceling doesn't.

 

[Quillion]

...Face what? I've already explained why Action Commands work and L-canceling doesn't.

Which is like saying fruits are delicious but oranges aren't.

 

[LancerStaff]

Which is like saying fruits are delicious but oranges aren't.

Not remotely, and I have people agreeing with me.

Heck, there's badges in TTYD which let you increase or decrease the difficultly of action commands for more or less star power and a badge that increases attack power at the cost of doing zero damage if you mess up. Double Unsimplifier is almost unplayable it's so hard.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ryu's input of light medium and heavy have reason and depth in smash 4.

It's not arbitrary because it offers choice with each one, the input is needed to tell the game which one you want to do.

This is why I am a-ok with inputs in street fighter but I am strongly against L-cancelling in melee.

 

[Twewy]

God Hand lets you cancel attacks early by dodging forward. Speedrunners do this with a NG+ move to clear fights quicker. It also really comes in handy when you do a move that takes a while to recover from. If I remember right, certain moves can't use this.

 

[LancerStaff]

Cancels such as that aren't exactly the same thing... Rather then committing to the endlag of an attack you're committing to another option. Usually it's the better option from my experience but I'm sure there's plenty of moments you don't want to dodge forwards in God Hand, just like how to don't want to jump cancel every attack in Shovel Knight or dodge cancel everything (immediately) in Hyrule Warriors.

And when you can cancel something in a loop and commit to nothing you get SotN.

 

[Twewy]

I've never had a problem cancelling attacks with the front dodge. You're right in that there are times where dodging forward isn't good, but when you're attacking, cancelling them is really useful. I think it's that finger poke move (Yes Man Kablam or something? It's been a while since I played it) that has a silly animation after the attack that can be cancelled out with the front dodge.

It pretty much is an L-cancel, you can cancel the endlag of just about any move with it. Sadly Gene can't wavedash or shorthop.