Diddy Kong
To start the planned trend, ADHD joined us in this discussion. Mainly an answer-man, he still incited some discussion with his one-liners. Bit of a presedence set for future match up discussions.
Also, the purpose of these discussions were to any and all questions that are valid within the match up, so don't hesitate to ask; as these things are always a work of progress.
Index:
1. Overview/Normal Play:
- Summaries
- Diddy Style(s) of Play
- Marth's Style(s) of Play
2. Zones
- Standard
- Gimping Diddy
- Diddy's Great Wall
3. Moves
4. Stages
- Neutrals
MBR Vote:
Order of Difficulty: 7th (+/- 4/3)
Similar difficulty: A lot `-`
Ratio: 50:50 - 60:40
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
General Information
Summaries
Learning how to use nanas, how to be proficient with glide tossing and pressuring with nanas yourself is effective against diddy, imo. Whilst the higher level diddys will make your use of bananas most likely obsolete, and always having it backfire, the initial building blocks in learning and being able to handle the match up requires this.
ZMT has told me his issues with diddy, Pierce has had probably the best diddy practice out of anyone here (who called it 5-5), and several Marths have been losing to diddys over the past couple of months. Well, subjective 'recent', but NEO has lost out to ADHD; MikeHaze got knocked out by two diddys at an MK banned tourney, etc etc.
~Shaya
i don't think its even i'd say 6-4 and i have alot of diddy exp beaten every diddy i've ever played in tourney with marth lol maybe after i fight adhd then my opinion may change on the match but for the most part its in marth's favor hands down
after reviewing the matchups over and over again and talking to some other mains of the two characters i'm starting to think this matchup is alot closer even if i tend to beat every diddy i fight i can see where marth would have problems
its defiinitely momentum based, as marth you do not want to be playing catch up
reasons i think its closer than once thought, both characters can gimp each other, both have good aerial games, in real matches diddy's fair is quite scary, his tilts are fast, and he can pressure you into air dodging with the use of a banana setting up for a good punish,
~HRNUT
I see this matchup as even or slightly in marth's favor. I can only see pierce going even with me now, I beat bardull 3-0 in a MM, neo 3-0 in tournament losers finals, pierce 2-1 in tournament, and mikehaze would get 100-0'd by me XD *Prepares for angry verbal assaults at ADHD.*
~ADHD
Uh, Basically the MU is this -> If Diddy is set up, Marth loses. If Diddy is not set-up, Marth wins.
It's a very momentum based MU. I like to think it's like fighting GnW, but instead of going for vertical advantage, the opponent aims for horizontal advantage through use of an item. Learning when to attack, and when to camp is crucial.
Catching is pretty important, I almost never glide toss. Also, don't freeze up when you have a banana.
Tl;dr Rush him down when he doesn't have bananas but watch out for Fair and learn to edge pressure/edge guard. When he's set-up, just wait.
~Pierce
Diddy Style:
Diddy has a couple of things that truly pester us,
A wall that Marth (and a lot of characters) has no immediate abilities to get through – Banana in hand, banana in front, popgun.
Out of shield options with speed/power that matches or betters us, with less commitment
Annoying rolling
But yeah, camping diddy is the one that has most of the Marths raging/losing.
~Shaya
I just camp the **** out of marth and limit his aerial approaches. I know when I'm in a bind and to retreat.
~ADHD
Also, Diddy has some pretty annoying tricks. If you hit his shield and push him onto the edge while he's holding a banana, he can actually throw that banana to hit you before grabbing the ledge. Mad gay. Also, Diddy may just drop a banana upon getting hit, which will hit you and make you trip randomly, or just break up your follow-ups in the air. SUPREMELY GAY. I mean, it's basically like, if Diddy is holding a banana, he has a chance to auto-parry every time he gets hit. It makes it really important to watch your spacing.
~Pierce
Marth Style:
my tactic...literally rush him down lol his banana has to eventually disappear and thats your opening, don't try to approach a diddy who's camping peanuts surrounded by two bananas
glide tossing isn't bad because it can enable a free shieldbreaker as well as other moves and it can be used to catch up or retreat from a diddy if needed but yeah i usually don't give any diddy a chance to set up.
i somewhat disagree with throwing it away i'd say throw it up so it takes longer for him to recover it almost protect the banana so he has one and is disadvantged the entire length that the banana is out.
~HRNUT
How does Diddy approach/set up on Marth when he has the percent lead and/or a nana of his own?
Is it something diddy struggles to do? ~ Shaya
I usually don't care if he has the percent lead and for some reason they still approach XD ~ADHD
Read: Being an all-out-aggressive idiot, especially if you have the lead. I can't really see how Diddy can reliably get past a walling Marth playing it extremely careful.
Marth has a forward glide toss that has two variable lengths, like one is about half a foxtrot length, the other is about 2 foxtrot in lengths. His back glide toss also has variance but not as significant (in difference). Marth's weak glide toss forward is about the same lengths of Diddys though.
With glide toss db1/dtilt, or if you glide toss towards a ledge, into dsmash (if it hits shield you just slide off stage into a fair/bair). Marth's utility of nanas when he has one allows him to effectively beat any roll (one of his weaknesses).
~Shaya
You MUST angle your shield forward when shielding bananas, or retreating Fair OOS. If you get a banana, throw it away. Don't approach through broken walls.
If Diddy is not set-up, Marth rolls over him. Force him onto the ledge, and don't put yourself in a position to get hit by Fair. Diddy will always use bananas better than Marth, and great Diddy players arely gets their bananas effectively used against them, so just get rid of them.
Not lingering in our shield is also super important. Diddy's sideB wrecks this, as well as banana on shield still not being ideal.
Throwing bananas up is pretty good, but Marth's arm is mediocre, so it's circumstantial. It heavily depends on stage presence and the age of the banana. If it's new, throw it off. If it's almost expired, throw it up. Marth has a slow arm, so play smart and safe. Glidetossing backwards with an upwards toss is a great way to get space and get a banana out of play.
Marth's tossing animation is stupidly slow. If I had to play it by eye, I'd say he tosses backwards on like frame 12. That being said, if both you and Diddy throw bananas at each other, Diddy is at advantage. Also, keep in mind that Diddy is stupidly unaffected by tripping, and recovers from it really quickly, so if you're going to nail him with a banana to make him trip, punish quickly.
Hitting Diddy with a banana while he is airborne has enough hitstun for you to combo, so keep this in mind. It makes edgeguarding much easier, but you must learn to instant throw. Basically, if you Z-catch a banana in the air, you are able to instantly rethrow it. Diddy players will be good at this, and the best ones will do it frequently, so learn how to do it back, if you plan on getting in any good edgeguards with bananas.
~Pierce
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Zoning
Neutral Play:
If marth is waving his fair, he's going to catch a peanut and then temporarily be stuck without aerials or smash attack and have to throw it away.
~ADHD
grabbing a peanut is not a big deal all you have to do is z drop it then resume.
Once marth does push diddy to the edge unless the diddy reacts smartly it can pretty much be over
on another note, most diddy's i've beaten have been through gimping and using bananas against them, i really know how to use them well so i think marth can compete in diddy's banana games if played right no matter how good the diddy is.
however i feel that when diddy is on stage it gets tricky to push him off and thats where marth takes alot of his damage
both characters tend to fail at kill blows so when it comes to ko potential diddy has the safest/least punishable options due to bananas which can make it really hard for marth to land a kill
~HRNUT
Once Diddy is on the ledge, GG. Smart coverage of options means he's not making it back onto the stage anytime soon. Just be patient. When Diddy jumps to pluck bananas, run under and SHFF UAIR him, THEN go for the bananas.
Diddy cannot gimp us. You are recovering wrong.
I kill Diddy the same way I kill other characters. Make a good read into a punish. I find Dsmash is good, because Diddy is light, and this comes out quick. UpB can work as well, or an fsmashing an air-dodge in the ground. Whiffed Fair is punishable, and a fresh Uair kills decently. Since you won't be using many auto-cancelled Uairs in this MU (Diddy is annoying short) then this shouldn't be a problem.
~Pierce
Gimping Diddy:
If Marth uses the autosnap refreshing AT, Diddy will get edgehogged if he tries to recover vertically.
It's not THAT hard to time an aerial to hit Diddy. And FF DS covers a LOT of options.
Learn to use SideB to hit him out of Barrels.
Smart Diddy players will recover horizontally with barrels, and this is much harder to punish with a gimp, but it still can enable a free hit, potentially back offstage.
If Marth has a banana, you most certainly cannot recover vertically, and you will also get hit/comboed out of sideB AND/OR Horizontal barrel recovery. Aerial banana hit can combo into all of Marth's aerials, including tipper Dair.
~Pierce
Recovering can still be punished but marth shouldn't be gimping diddy <_<, I just recover against him the same as I do against mk except I can afford to recover directly below the ledge.
“how can you say marth shouldn't be gimping diddy lol we can gimp mk if we play it right”-HR
Fair enough, marth really only gimps him if he spams side b trying to get back to the ledge and marth just keeps hitting him, otherwise i'd recover from far away with barrels and risk only being hit by a fair or upsmash/fsmash.
~ADHD
lol marth completely **** diddy's recovery unless he is very high up... spiking diddy out of his up with marth isn't that hard for marth to do i find it that recovering from away with diddy is easier to spike unless you're talking about recovering really high with upb then i can see marth not ever gimping diddy you'll just take damage
~HRNUT
Diddy's Wall:
To get through Diddy's wall, you must wait. I usually don't camp, especially against ADHD, because we play each other all the time, but I'm learning that that wall is simply unbreakable, which is mad gay. However, it's temporary, because the items disappear.
You cannot merely catch and Z-drop, because the fact is, Diddy can still shield, Monkey Flip, and Fair you. You cannot land immediately in front of him, and he can punish any and all options on block. I recommend mastering instant tossbacks, and simply throwing the peanuts back at hit in rapid succession, or just powershielding from not too far. Grabbing one peanut and waiting from far so you can glidetoss in to close the distance isn't entirely a bad idea, because it enables you to punish him when he tries to rebuild the wall. Peanuts aren't really an ideal weapon though, because bananas go right through them (pity).
~Pierce
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Moves:
Shieldbreaker:
There isn't enough shield hitstun with banana on block for any Diddy to get hit by shieldbreaker after a glide toss. The good ones will instantly Fair OOS once a banana hits it, or take some other retaliatory option, and not just sit and wait to get grabbed/shieldbroken.
~Pierce
Dolphin Slash:
Don't use Dolphin Slash except to kill. Due to the nature of Diddy, you're going to have a hard time breaking his walls, and Dolphin Slash is heavily punishable. If you Fair a Diddy's shield while he's holding a banana (don't tipper), and mis-space it on purpose, they will reflexively try to punish with a banana. This is your kill opportunity with Dolphin Slash (same as punishing the grab attempt on other characters).
~Pierce
Diddy Fair:
Fair outranges and outdamages us, but it can only hit us in the air/if Diddy is really close. I've found that crouching actually screws up this move as an approach, and it's much less safe than our fair.
Diddy fsmash:
Master smash DIing the fsmash. It's very helpful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stages:
Neutrals:
I play this MU on Brinstar, Lylat, and Battlefield. Marth has a slight advantage overall on neutrals, but you still want to avoid FD where Diddy is at advantage. Smashville is okay, but the other neutrals are probably preferable.
~Pierce
To start the planned trend, ADHD joined us in this discussion. Mainly an answer-man, he still incited some discussion with his one-liners. Bit of a presedence set for future match up discussions.
Also, the purpose of these discussions were to any and all questions that are valid within the match up, so don't hesitate to ask; as these things are always a work of progress.
Index:
1. Overview/Normal Play:
- Summaries
- Diddy Style(s) of Play
- Marth's Style(s) of Play
2. Zones
- Standard
- Gimping Diddy
- Diddy's Great Wall
3. Moves
4. Stages
- Neutrals
MBR Vote:
Order of Difficulty: 7th (+/- 4/3)
Similar difficulty: A lot `-`
Ratio: 50:50 - 60:40
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
General Information
Summaries
Learning how to use nanas, how to be proficient with glide tossing and pressuring with nanas yourself is effective against diddy, imo. Whilst the higher level diddys will make your use of bananas most likely obsolete, and always having it backfire, the initial building blocks in learning and being able to handle the match up requires this.
ZMT has told me his issues with diddy, Pierce has had probably the best diddy practice out of anyone here (who called it 5-5), and several Marths have been losing to diddys over the past couple of months. Well, subjective 'recent', but NEO has lost out to ADHD; MikeHaze got knocked out by two diddys at an MK banned tourney, etc etc.
~Shaya
i don't think its even i'd say 6-4 and i have alot of diddy exp beaten every diddy i've ever played in tourney with marth lol maybe after i fight adhd then my opinion may change on the match but for the most part its in marth's favor hands down
after reviewing the matchups over and over again and talking to some other mains of the two characters i'm starting to think this matchup is alot closer even if i tend to beat every diddy i fight i can see where marth would have problems
its defiinitely momentum based, as marth you do not want to be playing catch up
reasons i think its closer than once thought, both characters can gimp each other, both have good aerial games, in real matches diddy's fair is quite scary, his tilts are fast, and he can pressure you into air dodging with the use of a banana setting up for a good punish,
~HRNUT
I see this matchup as even or slightly in marth's favor. I can only see pierce going even with me now, I beat bardull 3-0 in a MM, neo 3-0 in tournament losers finals, pierce 2-1 in tournament, and mikehaze would get 100-0'd by me XD *Prepares for angry verbal assaults at ADHD.*
~ADHD
Uh, Basically the MU is this -> If Diddy is set up, Marth loses. If Diddy is not set-up, Marth wins.
It's a very momentum based MU. I like to think it's like fighting GnW, but instead of going for vertical advantage, the opponent aims for horizontal advantage through use of an item. Learning when to attack, and when to camp is crucial.
Catching is pretty important, I almost never glide toss. Also, don't freeze up when you have a banana.
Tl;dr Rush him down when he doesn't have bananas but watch out for Fair and learn to edge pressure/edge guard. When he's set-up, just wait.
~Pierce
Diddy Style:
Diddy has a couple of things that truly pester us,
A wall that Marth (and a lot of characters) has no immediate abilities to get through – Banana in hand, banana in front, popgun.
Out of shield options with speed/power that matches or betters us, with less commitment
Annoying rolling
But yeah, camping diddy is the one that has most of the Marths raging/losing.
~Shaya
I just camp the **** out of marth and limit his aerial approaches. I know when I'm in a bind and to retreat.
~ADHD
Also, Diddy has some pretty annoying tricks. If you hit his shield and push him onto the edge while he's holding a banana, he can actually throw that banana to hit you before grabbing the ledge. Mad gay. Also, Diddy may just drop a banana upon getting hit, which will hit you and make you trip randomly, or just break up your follow-ups in the air. SUPREMELY GAY. I mean, it's basically like, if Diddy is holding a banana, he has a chance to auto-parry every time he gets hit. It makes it really important to watch your spacing.
~Pierce
Marth Style:
my tactic...literally rush him down lol his banana has to eventually disappear and thats your opening, don't try to approach a diddy who's camping peanuts surrounded by two bananas
glide tossing isn't bad because it can enable a free shieldbreaker as well as other moves and it can be used to catch up or retreat from a diddy if needed but yeah i usually don't give any diddy a chance to set up.
i somewhat disagree with throwing it away i'd say throw it up so it takes longer for him to recover it almost protect the banana so he has one and is disadvantged the entire length that the banana is out.
~HRNUT
How does Diddy approach/set up on Marth when he has the percent lead and/or a nana of his own?
Is it something diddy struggles to do? ~ Shaya
I usually don't care if he has the percent lead and for some reason they still approach XD ~ADHD
Read: Being an all-out-aggressive idiot, especially if you have the lead. I can't really see how Diddy can reliably get past a walling Marth playing it extremely careful.
Marth has a forward glide toss that has two variable lengths, like one is about half a foxtrot length, the other is about 2 foxtrot in lengths. His back glide toss also has variance but not as significant (in difference). Marth's weak glide toss forward is about the same lengths of Diddys though.
With glide toss db1/dtilt, or if you glide toss towards a ledge, into dsmash (if it hits shield you just slide off stage into a fair/bair). Marth's utility of nanas when he has one allows him to effectively beat any roll (one of his weaknesses).
~Shaya
You MUST angle your shield forward when shielding bananas, or retreating Fair OOS. If you get a banana, throw it away. Don't approach through broken walls.
If Diddy is not set-up, Marth rolls over him. Force him onto the ledge, and don't put yourself in a position to get hit by Fair. Diddy will always use bananas better than Marth, and great Diddy players arely gets their bananas effectively used against them, so just get rid of them.
Not lingering in our shield is also super important. Diddy's sideB wrecks this, as well as banana on shield still not being ideal.
Throwing bananas up is pretty good, but Marth's arm is mediocre, so it's circumstantial. It heavily depends on stage presence and the age of the banana. If it's new, throw it off. If it's almost expired, throw it up. Marth has a slow arm, so play smart and safe. Glidetossing backwards with an upwards toss is a great way to get space and get a banana out of play.
Marth's tossing animation is stupidly slow. If I had to play it by eye, I'd say he tosses backwards on like frame 12. That being said, if both you and Diddy throw bananas at each other, Diddy is at advantage. Also, keep in mind that Diddy is stupidly unaffected by tripping, and recovers from it really quickly, so if you're going to nail him with a banana to make him trip, punish quickly.
Hitting Diddy with a banana while he is airborne has enough hitstun for you to combo, so keep this in mind. It makes edgeguarding much easier, but you must learn to instant throw. Basically, if you Z-catch a banana in the air, you are able to instantly rethrow it. Diddy players will be good at this, and the best ones will do it frequently, so learn how to do it back, if you plan on getting in any good edgeguards with bananas.
~Pierce
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Zoning
Neutral Play:
If marth is waving his fair, he's going to catch a peanut and then temporarily be stuck without aerials or smash attack and have to throw it away.
~ADHD
grabbing a peanut is not a big deal all you have to do is z drop it then resume.
Once marth does push diddy to the edge unless the diddy reacts smartly it can pretty much be over
on another note, most diddy's i've beaten have been through gimping and using bananas against them, i really know how to use them well so i think marth can compete in diddy's banana games if played right no matter how good the diddy is.
however i feel that when diddy is on stage it gets tricky to push him off and thats where marth takes alot of his damage
both characters tend to fail at kill blows so when it comes to ko potential diddy has the safest/least punishable options due to bananas which can make it really hard for marth to land a kill
~HRNUT
Once Diddy is on the ledge, GG. Smart coverage of options means he's not making it back onto the stage anytime soon. Just be patient. When Diddy jumps to pluck bananas, run under and SHFF UAIR him, THEN go for the bananas.
Diddy cannot gimp us. You are recovering wrong.
I kill Diddy the same way I kill other characters. Make a good read into a punish. I find Dsmash is good, because Diddy is light, and this comes out quick. UpB can work as well, or an fsmashing an air-dodge in the ground. Whiffed Fair is punishable, and a fresh Uair kills decently. Since you won't be using many auto-cancelled Uairs in this MU (Diddy is annoying short) then this shouldn't be a problem.
~Pierce
Gimping Diddy:
If Marth uses the autosnap refreshing AT, Diddy will get edgehogged if he tries to recover vertically.
It's not THAT hard to time an aerial to hit Diddy. And FF DS covers a LOT of options.
Learn to use SideB to hit him out of Barrels.
Smart Diddy players will recover horizontally with barrels, and this is much harder to punish with a gimp, but it still can enable a free hit, potentially back offstage.
If Marth has a banana, you most certainly cannot recover vertically, and you will also get hit/comboed out of sideB AND/OR Horizontal barrel recovery. Aerial banana hit can combo into all of Marth's aerials, including tipper Dair.
~Pierce
Recovering can still be punished but marth shouldn't be gimping diddy <_<, I just recover against him the same as I do against mk except I can afford to recover directly below the ledge.
“how can you say marth shouldn't be gimping diddy lol we can gimp mk if we play it right”-HR
Fair enough, marth really only gimps him if he spams side b trying to get back to the ledge and marth just keeps hitting him, otherwise i'd recover from far away with barrels and risk only being hit by a fair or upsmash/fsmash.
~ADHD
lol marth completely **** diddy's recovery unless he is very high up... spiking diddy out of his up with marth isn't that hard for marth to do i find it that recovering from away with diddy is easier to spike unless you're talking about recovering really high with upb then i can see marth not ever gimping diddy you'll just take damage
~HRNUT
Diddy's Wall:
To get through Diddy's wall, you must wait. I usually don't camp, especially against ADHD, because we play each other all the time, but I'm learning that that wall is simply unbreakable, which is mad gay. However, it's temporary, because the items disappear.
You cannot merely catch and Z-drop, because the fact is, Diddy can still shield, Monkey Flip, and Fair you. You cannot land immediately in front of him, and he can punish any and all options on block. I recommend mastering instant tossbacks, and simply throwing the peanuts back at hit in rapid succession, or just powershielding from not too far. Grabbing one peanut and waiting from far so you can glidetoss in to close the distance isn't entirely a bad idea, because it enables you to punish him when he tries to rebuild the wall. Peanuts aren't really an ideal weapon though, because bananas go right through them (pity).
~Pierce
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Moves:
Shieldbreaker:
There isn't enough shield hitstun with banana on block for any Diddy to get hit by shieldbreaker after a glide toss. The good ones will instantly Fair OOS once a banana hits it, or take some other retaliatory option, and not just sit and wait to get grabbed/shieldbroken.
~Pierce
Dolphin Slash:
Don't use Dolphin Slash except to kill. Due to the nature of Diddy, you're going to have a hard time breaking his walls, and Dolphin Slash is heavily punishable. If you Fair a Diddy's shield while he's holding a banana (don't tipper), and mis-space it on purpose, they will reflexively try to punish with a banana. This is your kill opportunity with Dolphin Slash (same as punishing the grab attempt on other characters).
~Pierce
Diddy Fair:
Fair outranges and outdamages us, but it can only hit us in the air/if Diddy is really close. I've found that crouching actually screws up this move as an approach, and it's much less safe than our fair.
Diddy fsmash:
Master smash DIing the fsmash. It's very helpful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stages:
Neutrals:
I play this MU on Brinstar, Lylat, and Battlefield. Marth has a slight advantage overall on neutrals, but you still want to avoid FD where Diddy is at advantage. Smashville is okay, but the other neutrals are probably preferable.
~Pierce
