Matchup Rediscussion Export: Metaknight

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Metaknight

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Matchup:

40:60

General info:

My past post on this MU.

Ok. Metaknight matchup. Easy enough.

MK. Annoying. Hell, he is almost the most annoying character in the game due to the fact that he only has about 1 bad match up(lol). But even then it doesn't stop lucario from taking first in the matchup. the matchup is in Metaknight's favor but not by much, and its 100% possible to win.

Metaknight has alot of gimmicks and tricks. From Uair chains to Nado spamming. First off I would like to explain how to stop his glide attack. Metaknight's glide clashes with almost everything if it hits with another move. If you see a metaknight go for a glide attack you have 2 ways to stop it.

1) When MK sweeps in with the glide attack, jump and fair first to clash out his glide, then use Dair to hit him.

2) Jump and Dair. The first hit of dair will clash out the swing of his glide and the 2nd attack of Dair will hit Metaknight.

Use those tatics to knock out his glide attacks normally and out of shuttle loop.

Avoid going under metaknight. His down air will sweep you due to its long range vertically and horizontaly. His fair beats out your fair and your Bair will trade with is fair, so if you see him going to fairs for spacing or even just to rush you space backwars and bair him. Avoid jumping at him directly while he is on the ground. He will shuttle loop and hit you. Use AS and BAS a lot more for this match, but avoid over camping. Metaknight can get in very fast and easy.

I learned yesterday while playing m2k that for this matchup your F-Smash can and will be punished in many ways. Hell, if you Fsmash and MK blocks it, He can dash grab you -_-. That one was tested and proven. lol. Your F-smash beats out Nado and a fully charged AS will also beat nado out. Keep that in mind because thats one of MK's openings. If you see a MK nado close to you but near the ground, Roll dodge out! Its a trap. Metaknight has no lagg after tornado if he stays near the ground, he can attack out right out of it with anything faster then your moves (which btw is almost all of his moves) Best thing to do is just move out the way. If he Nado's you but is above you putting pressure on your shield, When the nado is done either Utilt or grab him before he lands. If he nados past you do not chase him, for he will punish you also.

This is something I can not stress enough. For this matchup, Do not try to gimp him -_-!!!!!

**** Metaknights... Gimping bleh. One Dair will kill you off map if you are trying to return to the map. Try to recover high if you see him try to gimp you, and try to save your jump if you know you can make it back to the map without using it (making it to the ledge does not apply, since he is fast enough to edge hog you while returning)

Use tilts a lot more in this match. You need to be fast. His down tilt is on frame stupid and it trips so try to either jump in the air or roll out the way.

One thing about metaknight is that he lacks on kill moves. His downsmash will be used so it will be stale when it comes to the point on which he needs to kill you. DI up for this smash. His only 2 decent kill moves other then downsmash is Shuttle loop and F-smash. Shuttle loop will be used a lot also for the matchup so it will also be stale. the only real thing you need to worry about is F-smash. (While you're on the ground anyway)

The matchup is No more then 60-40 Mk. I can also say that it may be 55-45, but that may be pushing it a bit.

I find it important to take what you knew before, and compare it to what you know now. A good comparison makes a good way to learn how you have improved from the past to now. I will write my current one for this day and age later. I just waned to post this one, even if the information is inaccurate.

Overall: MK is a character that is top tier for a reason. He has very good priority, fast attacks, multiple jumps with a large number of recovery options, and can easily gimp most characters with his superior aerial game. He also has the ability to airstall/plank every other character in the game, but most places have rules to limit this. With that being said, MK's weaknesses are that he lacks moves that kill at lower percents compared to other top tiers and is somewhat light.

Breakdown of moves:
Mach Tornado: New players dread this move for a reason. It's makes MK untouchable for certain characters. However, Lucario has ways to get through the tornado. AS and fsmash can break through tornado. There are other moves that can break through, but they require more precise spacing and timing. Recall that the hitbox for tornado virtually surrounds MK on both his sides and bottom, so the only exposed part is the top. Even then, MK's hurtbox is in the middle of the tornado, so you'll need a move with range in order to reach him. Moves such as nair and dair can break through, but you must have precise spacing in order to do so. If caught in the tornado, try to SDI out. If you can't do it immediately, at least SDI to avoid the last hit, because the last hit has knockback. If you can avoid the last hit, it's possible to punish the MK with a move.

Drill Rush:This move is rarely used for attacking and used more for recovering. The hitboxes are positioned in front of MK giving him protection against most attacks. Once again, AS can go through this move. MK is vulnerable from the top, bottom, and rear, but if an MK is using this for recovery, you'll rarely be able to take advantage of these weak spots. If the MK is using this move to recover low, you have almost no chance of punishing it. Your best bet is to not get in his way.

Shuttle Loop: This is yet another move that is the bane of new players. Shuttle Loop comes in two variations: grounded and aerial. MK can glide attack after either variation. If MK cancels the glide correctly, it will have virtually no lag, so MK can retaliate with a move, usually dsmash. Grounded SL gets invincibility when if it hits something during the startup, which makes this move very good OoS. Aerial Shuttle Loop is a more dangerous move because it is used as a finisher for aerial combos and can result in quick death. It is possible to stop aerial SL with any number of Lucario's moves, such as dair, nair, fair, AS, etc., but the problem is knowing when the MK will use it. It's possible for the MK to bait your attack and then use it. It really becomes a guessing game, so just be ready. Also, watch out for an MK below the stage. It's possible for them to SL onto the stage and then cancel into another SL. SL will also be used for edgeguarding quite often, so you'll probably start to notice when an MK is going to SL. Also note that aerial SL has two forms of knockback depending on what part the MK hits you with. Unfortunately, it's hard to describe what part is the determining factor without a picture of SL, but you can go to training mode and figure it out.

I tackled the special moves, but I can do regular moves later...

What to avoid:

I ****ing hate Dthrow and Meta Knight's dash grab.

Seriously, MK's dash grab to dthrow is by far the biggest problem I ever have with Meta Knight using any character. It's so ****ing hard to react to.

God I ****ing hate Meta Knight's dash grab. **** that move. He can even grab our fsmash oos with that mother****er. Hell, he can even grab a tipper fsmash by powershielding to dash grab.

Then once you get grabbed, you always know what's coming up: a Dthrow. I ****ing hate this move. This move is so ****ing stupid. It lasts forever so you can wallow in your guilt of being grabbed, then you have two options: Be COMPLETELY open to short hop aerials as a TRUE COMBO and maybe get offstage at a high angle, or get offstage at a very horrible angle and be in prime position to be followed up or gimped. It's completely lose-lose, but there's one saving grace: DI'ing forwards requires committed followups and is generally limited to dash grab, dash attack, and Tornado. If you're on stage, and luckily his Dthrow won't send you offstage (you're a lucky man), it's usually best to DI away from him because if you DI towards him/up, he can short hop aerial of his choice or Shuttle Loop ON REACTION as a TRUE COMBO. He generally can follow up dthrow even if you DI away from him, but he has to predict you DI'ing away, and thus must begin giving chase immediately after throwing you if he wants to follow up quickly. This means that technically, you have like a 50:50 chance of escaping with only the 12-18% tacked on by the dthrow+pummels. In reality it's more like 45:55 or 35:65 because on-stage, it's usually safer to DI away and eat a dashing followup anyways, and if he's smart, he'll know to switch up between predicting an away-DI and waiting when you DI towards/up.


TL;DR version. MK's dash grab is a ****ing pain. His Dthrow can be DI'd up and towards him, or away from him (which can very often send you offstage). Up and towards is followed up by waiting, then using a short hop aerial or shuttle loop, and away is followed up by immediately giving chase with a dash attack, another dash grab, or a tornado. Away-DI followups are completely committed, so if you can trick him into thinking you'll DI away and DI up instead, or vice versa, you may escape with only the damage of the dthrow+pummels.

Oh yeah, and DI Uthrow away from him if he tries to kill with it and you won't die from it until like 190 unless it's on a high platform like Battlefield, and even then you should live pretty long, maybe 140 or so.

Bthrow is DI'd upwards if you didn't do that already. Fthrow is DI'd away if you can DI quick enough (It's fast as hell, like our Fthrow), but you'll probably never see Fthrow unless the MK is sneaky and knows you're preparing to DI a Dthrow into him, as it puts you in an even worse position than a Dthrow DI'd towards him if he does this with you DI'ing up and into him.

God I hate his dash grab.


Anyways, a funny thing about short hop aerials. Fsmash beats them all. MK can't short hop over our Fsmash. If you fight a dumb MK who loves short hopping his aerials, use Fsmash to smash him away.


Also, it might help to remember at some times that MK's air speed is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWww. He has the third worst air speed in the game, barely above Luigi and below Ice Climbers. This means that his followups in the air are usually pretty limited if he doesn't force you to come to him (AKA when gimping and he's between you and the stage). This pretty much only means that if he's high in the air and bats you away, he probably won't be able to followup, so you can sort of rest easy knowing that, I guess.

On a side note, I think we should start having some recommendations on what to do vs dumb players along with the ultimate-tourney-winning-super-pro strategies. Most of the characters you find are played by decent or only pretty good players after all, many with little experience against Lucario, so it might be pretty good to know some strategies, like how inexperienced MKs often jump into our fsmash trying to short hop aerial, or how Falco mains looooove to try to "combo" their uair out of either their dair or their Phantasm, which almost always leads to them being star KO'd by our own Dair, or the super amazing mindgame of Fsmash whiff to Aura Sphere.

How to win:

Gheb pretty much nailed how you are supposed to play MK. Camp him when he's grounded and you can be a bit more aggressive in the air. Just never ever try to punish him with grabs.

This match up would be even IMO if it wasn't for MKs ridiculous offstage game, but due to that, it is not even in the slightest. Onstage, Luc is on par with MK for the most part. Offstage, bend over and take it. If you play someone like Dojo, M2K, Tyrant, or Havok, Lucario DOES NOT recover no matter how hard you try. The only times I ever get on stage against any MK of that caliber is if they miscalculate and mess up the edge guard. If you want to win, you have to be careful and minimize the times you are caught offstage, which against MK, is quite the chore.

As for counterpicks, the only stages I find it even bearable to play MK on are FD or Smashville. FD preferred but they usually ban it. Plats give MK a great advantage and anywhere else, MK can exploit the stages far better than Lucario.

First off I wanna begin by saying...

10% AURA SPHERES BEAT NADO, 10% AURA SPHERES BEAT NADO, 10% AURA SPHERES BEAT NADO!

21% Aura Spheres (104%, full charge, fresh) will beat MK's glide attack.

Seriously, Aura Sphere is <3 in this match-up. Keep it reasonably fresh if you can. Also, get good at B-Reversals, you'll need it.

Challenging a grounded MK with DAir is really risky:

• OoS Shuttle Loop
• Utilt beats Lucario's DAir

Pressure his shield with AS and he'll either be forced to Nado (which at higher %s you'll have enough time to charge up a 10% Sphere and knock him out of it) or take it to the air. If he Dair air camps try to keep your distance until you know you can hit him. If you're too aggressive he'll secure a better position on the stage and give you a harder time. DAir hits you at a weird horizontal angle too, so try to not get hit by it too much.

Edit: Oh and don't forget to DI/SDI his multi-hit Fair and Bair, you should be able to hit him if he whiffs the third hit.

Obviously you'll be able to hit him more if his shield is worn down. Limit his options and you'll be able to hit him more, yay!

Stages:
Final Destination and Smashville are my favorite neutrals for taking on MK. The more platforms there are/bigger it is the more that MK can harass you with Uair, Shuttle Loop, Nado, etc.
Uhhh pretty much everything else I've wanted to say has been said already.

55:45 MK.

Spoiler

(Also, if we all agree that its 55:45 MK there will most likely be an influx of players wanting to learn Lucario/help develop his metagame. Hint, hint.)

Helpful tips:

If you're letting MK PS a fsmash, you aren't taking advantage of strutterstepping and the "slight charge" rule. After I learned those, fsmash became a bugger for MK to punish.
You have to watch out for using fsmash on a grounded MK anyways because he can ftilt you with the third hit out of it (I think even at max range).
Dash grab is a doozy, but if you use camping techniques properly you can make it really tough for him to grab you, just make sure you switch between air and ground carefully, otherwise you could get sent off the stage just like that .

If Mk gets Dsmash happy, try and predict and shield, it has -19 frame disadvantage on block. This means you have enough time to Ftilt, jab, Utilt, Dtilt, grab, FPG.

Kitamerby, if you really have that much trouble with his dash grab then you should use more Pivot grab. You can basically do it everytime MK dashes towards you and it's very safe. I actually think it's Lucario's best move on the ground next to fsmash in that match-up. It basically beats everything Fsmash doesn't beat.

1) When MK sweeps in with the glide attack, jump and fair first to clash out his glide, then use Dair to hit him.

2) Jump and Dair. The first hit of dair will clash out the swing of his glide and the 2nd attack of Dair will hit Metaknight.

Use those tatics to knock out his glide attacks normally and out of shuttle loop.

Stages:

YI is sorta nice.

Honestly you shouldn't be going to crazy stages at all for this MU, stick with the neutralish areas.


winning the 1st match is essentiaaaaal

Ban Rainbow, Frigate, or battle field depending on the situation. Try to get MK on FD by all means. If you can't get him there, try to lean to the neutrals since it's more of a chance you can fight him on. CPing MK anywhere other then a neutral most of the time is not a good idea lol.

MK does have bad stages whether people want to admit it or not.

FD is a bad MK stage, most of the cast can do so much more on this stage compared to others. In Lucario's case it lets him get open space and live longer vertically. Yoshi's Island is good, gimping is less likely due to wall cling, make sure you don't get footstooled.

Green Greens and Corneria if legal are good CP stages, but again if legal.

Rainbow Cruise is the main stage that give me issues, I usually ban that stage from CP.

As for the whole starter stage deliema here is what my starter selection is,

Final Destination
Lylat cruiser
Smashville
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island

I strike BF and Smashville every time, usually they strike FD and Yoshi's. I can live with Lylat, although I sometimes face some oddball MK's that strike it and we go to Yoshi's.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.[/QUOTE]

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sorry I took a bit to make this, lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

Great job, I'll just link it to the front page.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Let it be known to all about the power of Aura! Good export.

I think we really need to compare Luc's options framewise...

For ease of reference here's MK's framedata thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614

Our roll get so easily punished by like everything. Don't roll at him unless you are 100% sure you know what you are doing.

Also if for some reason he's nadoing grounded at the edge of Lylat and you are grounded on the floor, but still higher than him you might be able to sneak a Ftilt in since the top part of his whorenado is available to shove a Ftilt in.

 

[**Havok**]

Our roll get so easily punished by like everything. Don't roll at him unless you are 100% sure you know what you are doing.

Catching Lucario Forward rolls is very hard, I read it blatantly and Stauffy still messes me up for trying so I have to do silly things to play vs it.

 

[culexus・wau]

that being said.

Know when you're overdoing it lol

cost me a set yesterday :<