Matchup Discussion: Greninja

[CHOMPY]

Greninja

Specifically, the following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/bait your opponent
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• What moves to avoid
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall matchup ratio

Begin!

 

[SwoodGrommet]

I'm pretty friendly with a Greninja main over at Smashladder, so I'll see if I can come up with something from experience.

Character strengths and weaknesses.
- Greninja's grab is definitely something to be wary of. I believe his pivot grab is one of the best in the game, and his Up-Throw to Uair is a true combo. If I'm at a high percent, Up-Throw will send me pretty high so I have time to bring out the Guardian Orbitars to save me from the Uair KO. This has saved me a ton of times.

- If Greninja tries to gimp you with his Shurikens, pull out the Orbitars, obviously. Competent Greninja's probably won't do this against Pit. If he uses Shurikens onstage, don't bother reflecting the small ones. I don't know if it would be possible to pull out the Orbitars in time anyway.

How to effectively approach/bait your opponent.
- The Greninja I'm used to playing most has a heavy rushdown style, so if you're playing one like this, space with D-Tilts. Greninja has a fast running speed, so he often runs headfirst into consecutive D-Tilts or F-Tilts.

- I also find that Greninjas hop and jump around a lot. If you can get used to reading and predicting this, intercept their jumps with Nairs and Fairs. Learn his patterns and punish it.

- Competent Greninjas will not spam their Dair spike move. However, expect it to be used every now and then. I like to bait this move out of Greninjas. When Greninja is falling back down to the stage, try and stay on the ground underneath him or fake him out by pretending to approach with an Uair (don't jump high enough so you can't get to the ground in time). This can be enough to bait the move out of him.

Off-Stage game.
- When playing Greninja, I am usually quite wary of offstage play, and instead preferring to stay onstage and get a few shots in with my Light Arrows. However, Greninja's recovery is quite predictable, so it is possible to get a Dair spike or two off of it. I feel safer onstage versus Greninja due to his Hydro Pump move. Pit's recovery is very predictable and easy to gimp. Hydro Pump's vertical knockback is huge, so just be aware of that when using your recovery. If you feel a Hydro Pump is coming your way, use the Orbitars if you have the time/space.

- When you are making your way back to the stage, expect to be chased further to the edge of the screen with Fairs. Greninja's Fair is strong, and is good for spacing. If he catches you offstage with this, you're out of there. Don't be caught out be this; expect him to come after you.

- Pit's recovery is predictable, as I've already mentioned. When using Up-B to recover, get ready to tech the stage as Greninja will most likely go for a Bair stage spike. I can't stress how important it is to be able to tech this properly.

- Another reason why I don't like chasing Greninja offstage: Shadow Sneak. Shadow Sneak is a kill move, and he can easily hit you with it offstage when you can't see the shadow coming.

Positional Play.
- Watch out for Greninja spacing with Fairs and approaching with Nairs.

- Never fall back onto the stage close to him. His Up-Smash has a deceptively wide range to his right and left sides.

Punishes/Punishing.
- If you shield his Dair, he will jump into the air again and repeat the move. For this reason, it is far easier to punish this move by rolling out of the way and then exploiting the end lag.

- A botched Shadow Sneak is very easily punished due to the horrible end lag.

- Greninjas will usually attempt to punish with a grab to Uair. Being proficient at spotdodging is obviously very helpful in this particular matchup.

- Up-Smash has quite an amount of end lag.

What moves to avoid.
- There's really no moves you should be neglecting in this. The only move I don't implement into my games is U-Tilt. Just be careful using your Upperdash, as always.

Stage strengths and weaknesses.
- I don't really have the best advice for this one, to be honest. I feel most comfortable on Battlefield as I can easily shark Greninja using the platforms. Maybe someone else can give more in depth information and reasoning.

Overall match-up ratio.
- Although not a completely one sided matchup, I wouldn't say that it is in Greninjas favour.

- I'd probably say it's 60:40, but I'm definitely open for discussion.


Extra tip - In Sudden Death, Hydro Pump has enough knockback to kill you, so get ready for that if you frequent For Glory

 

[Shack]

I agree with most of what SwoodGrommet said. As a Greninja main, I have no answer to DAir. It beats all of Greninja's aerials and beats/trades with USmash. The only time up throw to UAir will work is at lower percents because Pit can DAir, air dodge or hop around to avoid it at later percents.

Go for a lot of grabs, you can shield grab Greninja's NAir easily and punish. NAir is his main set up move for combos and USmashes.

Pit seems to acel more with platforms, I hate playing on Battlefield because it stops most of my approaches, combos and most of my moves have too much start up lag to use with platforms.

When you recover, fear Hyrdo Pumps and BAirs, they are very easy to land on most Pit players. Also Greninja has multiple recovery options, it comes down to the player's skill. He can Hydro Pump in multiple directions and angles to avoid getting spiked. If you are consistently spiking Greninja, the player might not have enough exp with Hydro Pump.

Personally I feel Pit slightly wins the match up since he has more range, more kill moves, better grab, 2 reflect options, better air maneuverability and seems to have an answer for most of Greninjas current approaches. The only thing Greninja really has over him is speed which can be overcome by good reads and using the long hit box moves like UAir, NAir and FAir while using multiple jumps to avoid approaches.

If anyone knows what beats Pit's DAir, please share, all I know to do is block or use Hydro Pump.

EDIT:
After a lot of games last night against my friend's Pit, I have some moro info on the match up.

Greninja seems to have some trouble on big stages because of the lack of kill options unless already on the edge. I find myself doing a lot better on Smashville vs Final Destination. Part of it could also be that bigger stages give Pit more room to evade with.

Greninjas bair is too good against Pits recovery and a really good option when he in the air period. If Pit is directly above Greninja, Greninja has the option to uair or bait out a move so he can bair.

Everything Greninja does is easily punishable on whiff/shield outside of jab and dtilt.

I started winning a lot more when I focused on baiting out Pits moves, they actually have some decent recovery time and are easy to punish with a running grab. If I tried to dictate the match with pure aggression, I found myself eating a random fsmash, side b, or aerial since they all have some good range and hit boxes.

I believe a good Pit will use side b to punish often. If Pit is in mid range, anytime Greninja throws a shuriken, charges a smash or uses a whiffed aerial, that should be an easy side b.

I still think Pit has a slight favor in the matchup since he does have a lot of tools that shut down Greninja's pokes and approaches. Greninja has to use a lot of speed and constantly move around.