Matchup Changes Post 1.06?

[Diddy Kong]

Sup protege Kongs?

Many people have argued that our beloved character Diddy has significantly dropped since the 1.06 patch, which nerfed our killing power in F Air, U Air and Side B significantly. This is no news to us, as you wouldn't be reading this anyway if you had no interesst in the Superiour Simian choice in Smash.

However, I've seen way too many people argue that their mains now handle Diddy much better than before. Specific mains are ,,,, and players. Who all claim Diddy is "much easier" now.

How much of this actually holds water you guys think?

Have matchups changed this drastically that say, 50-50 matchups might've gone in favor of the other character? Or that 60-40 matchups are now closer to 55-45 or even 50-50?

Matchups I think that actually might've gone slightly less to our favor might be: cause we share their weaknesses now with killing off our enemies, which was our main advantage over these 3 specific characters. However, I still don't think that all these matches outside of are actually a 'problem' to us. The only problem I see post 1.06 is .

Please share your insights here.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

I think Diddy's matchups haven't changed much, if at all, because his only nerfs were damage and knockback nerfs, not hitbox and framedata, which only means you have to keep doing what your doing for longer. I think this might have possibly made the Villager matchup a bit harder, because since you have to approach more times per stock than before, villager has more chances to pocket your banana, ruining the best of your approach options. It also means if he does pocket your banana, you will have to approach him more times without it, making it harder. Apart from this, the rest of the matchups won't have changed much at all, and yes i know fsmash had a framedata nerf, but is still really fast and unpunishable with the same killpower, and we can still get banana>fsmash. The only real difference is we kill a bit later, so this might also affect the Lucario MU badly for us. But most of Diddy's MUs are still amazing for him, even the ones that just got worse. Also when villager pockets the banana you can camp him with shorthop peanuts

 

[vegeta18]

i think the rosalina match up might have became a lot closer now. Diddy had a huge advantage because rosa was so light and floaty, and she was easily juggled by diddy`s aerials, and although it was a pretty close match, the problem was that rosa would get killed by diddy and stupidly low percents. Now that is much less of a factor, i think this gives her a way better chance.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

The matchups that I've been having the most trouble with post patch have been Luigi and Sheik. This is more clear with Sheik, but our advantage over both was the damage we could do through power combos (hoohah) and a safe game until we killed them. But with damage nerfs we have to approach a lot more which is what Sheik excels at exploiting. So I'd say the matchup is now 55:45 Sheik's favor while I'm not too sure with Luigi. But I'm still having trouble with him.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I was thinking Sheik was one of the matchups that actually changed to, and Luigi. Prior 1.06 when we had the Killing Hoo Hah, it was our main advantage over Sheik because it could kill her so much easier than she could kill us. Hoo Hah was a lot more reliable than say, gimping with B Air, hitting that U Smash sweetspot, or landing Bouncing Fish. Now, it's much harder for us to get the kill in, we struggle almost as bad as Sheik, and that's bad.

Vs Pikachu or Fox, their lightweight frames make it easier for us to get the KO, plus I think Diddy already had a clear advantage thanks to frame data which is still good.

Luigi was hard because of his traction, same thing applied to Brawl, where Diddy had bad matchups against Luigi and Peach because of traction and how they reacted to bananas. I think Peach is also a matchup that's harder for Diddy than average this time around. Luigi, Peach and Sheik where all characters we where happy to be able to finish off early with the Murder Hoo Hah. I think adaptation needs to be applied with these matchups, because I definitely think that not being able to kill off early does effect these matchups, even slightly. Because all these characters have their own way of getting to our second most powerful tool: the banana. If we cannot land a banana effecively, we suffer in neutral. Plus, Luigi and Peach have aerials that rival even ours.

Other than these 3, I doubt there's serious change. I am still hoping they will give Diddy more killpower in the future. F Air didn't need it's nerfs I feel... And it's the move I personally miss the most in terms of killing power.

 

[W.A.C.]

Post patch, I think , , , and maybe are Diddy's worst matchups. Pre-patch, I felt Diddy Kong had a pretty strong advantage over Rosalina entirely because Diddy Kong's killing power was so good and that screwed over a light floaty character like Rosalina by a lot. Post-patch, Rosalina is a much stronger character than Diddy Kong now and he's now a character that struggles at killing. A lot of tactics involving bananas and peanuts he could typically use against characters flat out doesn't work against Rosalina because of her down special, which was only not a major problem before because of Diddy Kong's kill power.

Pre-patch, Shiek vs. Diddy Kong felt like a pretty even fight. Diddy Kong had better killing power, but she had better frame data, better gimping options, and a much better recovery. Now I feel the matchup is definitely in Shiek's favor. Her back air nerf hurt her minimally compared to all the major nerfs Diddy Kong got. Also pre-patch, Luigi vs. Diddy Kong also seemed like an equally matched fight, but now it is definitely in Luigi's favor. As for Olimar, he has the weirdest matchups of any characters. He excels amazing against certain matchups, yet fares horribly in some other matchups. For whatever reason, a lot of people viewed Olimar as one of Diddy Kong's worst matchups and I wouldn't disagree. He's a pain in the ass to fight against using Diddy Kong. Fortunately, Meta Knight has a strong advantage over that character, so I can always use him for those matchups. Shiek also obliterates Olimar btw.

I think Diddy's matchups haven't changed much, if at all, because his only nerfs were damage and knockback nerfs, not hitbox and framedata, which only means you have to keep doing what your doing for longer.

Pretty much all of his best moves except bananas and down tilt were massively nerfed. The fact he went from being a character with insane kill power to a character who struggles to kill hurt him badly. Some matchups that were a laughable joke in Diddy Kong's favor are now matchups where his opponent actually has a chance, his closest matchups are now in his opponent's favor (hence why ZeRo now goes Shiek when necessary), and his frame data for his forward smash was messed with, making it a far more punishable move.

Edit-

Regarding Pikachu and Fox, I feel Diddy Kong still has the advantage over Fox and I guess Pikachu is a big question mark. Unless customs are involved, I've never really seen an amazing Pikachu player and I keep hearing he's one of the best in the game. Really odd.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy can kill Fox quite easily still, I doubt there's much of a problem against him, but I don't think it's a cakewalk either. I agree with you that it really, REALLY sucks that Diddy has so much trouble killing now, whereas he had the easiest kill set up earlier out of the whole cast.

ESAM basically covers all your Pikachu needs btw. I've yet to see any matches after the horrible nerf patch of Diddy vs Pikachu though, so am still second guessing this matchup as well. Many argue it's now also in Pikachu's advantage.

I also am not surprised that Olimar does good vs Diddy, as this was the same case in Brawl. Olimar just has better camping abilities, and his Pikmin are quite effective in shutting down Diddy's ground game, and Olimar is small enough to avoid eating F Air spam... So yeah, a weird matchup but one we have to be careful for.

Rosalina is now quite frustrating to indeed. But I also don't think we should underestimate Peach.

Am starting to think these nerfs hit us harder than before... I want Diddy to have at least ONE kill aerial again... Preferably F Air, and I would love the old power of the Side B kick as well... This would fix so many matchups. Diddy's main charm for me, outside of him being Diddy Kong in itself, was that he was the powerhouse of the fast lightweights...

I really hope for slight buffs in future patches...

 

[bc1910]

I think Diddy beat Greninja pretty decisively pre-patch, but the MU is approaching the even territory now. Greninja's biggest problem in this MU was a horrible weight/fall speed combination for defending against Hoo Hah or Uthrow -> Uair, both of which killed him really early. So he was neither able to outdamage nor outlive Diddy.

Now, he still can't outdamage Diddy because Diddy's combos are ultimately more reliable, but the difference is that he is able to live long enough for his hits to matter as long as his edgeguarding is on point. Edgeguarding Diddy is also a bit less risky now that Fair and Uair do less knockback if you **** up and get hit by one of them as Diddy is returning.

I'm sure you'll agree that Diddy's MUs haven't changed much for the characters who he could just wall out with Fair or Uair, because he can still do that just fine. You can even argue both those moves are better at comboing. Greninja never fell into this category though because his Fair outranges all of Diddy's aerials and his dashgrab is excellent at punishing landings, even from a short hop. Shurikens are also good against Diddy because they let Greninja outcamp him. So with Greninja's biggest problem by far in this MU being Diddy's kill power, I think it makes sense that the MU would improve for Greninja since Diddy's kill power is what got nerfed the most.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

I think Diddy beat Greninja pretty decisively pre-patch, but the MU is approaching the even territory now. Greninja's biggest problem in this MU was a horrible weight/fall speed combination for defending against Hoo Hah or Uthrow -> Uair, both of which killed him really early. So he was neither able to outdamage nor outlive Diddy.


Now, he still can't outdamage Diddy because Diddy's combos are ultimately more reliable, but the difference is that he is able to live long enough for his hits to matter as long as his edgeguarding is on point. Edgeguarding Diddy is also a bit less risky now that Fair and Uair do less knockback if you **** up and get hit by one of them as Diddy is returning.


I'm sure you'll agree that Diddy's MUs haven't changed much for the characters who he could just wall out with Fair or Uair, because he can still do that just fine. You can even argue both those moves are better at comboing. Greninja never fell into this category though because his Fair outranges all of Diddy's aerials and his dashgrab is excellent at punishing landings, even from a short hop. Shurikens are also good against Diddy because they let Greninja outcamp him. So with Greninja's biggest problem by far in this MU being Diddy's kill power, I think it makes sense that the MU would improve for Greninja since Diddy's kill power is what got nerfed the most.

I disagree. If you're being beat by Greninja that means you're being outplayed and/or don’t know how to escape his tricks and combos. Don’t get me wrong, Greninja is a very good character, but I don’t think the matchup changed too much. Greninja can’t camp out Diddy without getting punished hard and you still approach Greninja in the same ways as pre-patch. Sure the knockback nerf is a blow but that goes with every matchup. The only difference is that we have to work for kill setups now.

 

[bc1910]

I don't mean to come across as standoffish (and I understand your comment was probably general rather than personal) but I don't think "you're being outplayed" is a particularly strong argument in MU discussions like this. If someone is offering measured reasoning it's rarely as cut and dry as them just getting beaten. Just something to consider!

Anyway, I'm not being beaten BY Greninja, I main Greninja and am beating more Diddy players with him. I'll still lose to the good ones a lot but I think that's where it comes down to me being outplayed and/or not taking my edgeguard chances. The MU feels a lot fairer.

Run back B-reverse shurikens are an excellent way to outcamp Diddy and are hard to punish. This was true prepatch, I don't think Diddy ever creamed Greninja like he did to a lot of characters, it's just the punishes he did at get from a throw at kill % were devastating. That's no longer the case.

You don't have to believe me, it's just my two pennies worth. Greninja has been doing a lot better vs tourney level Diddies in Japan particularly, our worst MU is now widely considered to be Sheik by a long shot whereas Diddy was almost as bad before.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I kind of noticed a slight difference in difficulty vs Greninja in one of the vids one of the frequent posters here posted in the video thread. I think one thing that makes Greninja different is that he's slippery, like Luigi. So bananas don't work as good against him. It's good to hear a perspective from another character main btw though, so your information is appriciated.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

I don't mean to come across as standoffish (and I understand your comment was probably general rather than personal) but I don't think "you're being outplayed" is a particularly strong argument in MU discussions like this. If someone is offering measured reasoning it's rarely as cut and dry as them just getting beaten. Just something to consider!

Anyway, I'm not being beaten BY Greninja, I main Greninja and am beating more Diddy players with him. I'll still lose to the good ones a lot but I think that's where it comes down to me being outplayed and/or not taking my edgeguard chances. The MU feels a lot fairer.

Run back B-reverse shurikens are an excellent way to outcamp Diddy and are hard to punish. This was true prepatch, I don't think Diddy ever creamed Greninja like he did to a lot of characters, it's just the punishes he did at get from a throw at kill % were devastating. That's no longer the case.

You don't have to believe me, it's just my two pennies worth. Greninja has been doing a lot better vs tourney level Diddies in Japan particularly, our worst MU is now widely considered to be Sheik by a long shot whereas Diddy was almost as bad before.

Hm...that's interesting coming from a Greninja player. I've met a couple decent Greninja's but have been playing the MU the same pre-patch albeit a bit safer since punishes start to build up. It might just be that I'm better than the Greninja players I know or they're not adapting well. If there is a change, I wouldn't call it one as big as the Diddy vs Sheik or Diddy vs Luigi matchup.

 

[Diddy Kong]

All matchups have changes because of our now appearant "struggle" to get kills in. Matches will be longer most likely because of it, and it means we're getting hit more often by stuff. I still think Luigi is one of our biggest treats indeed, but it's a good thing we can still actually kill him with U Air still around 120% or so. Same with Fox, and Pikachu. So in the end, I think our worst match up might still be Sheik.

EDIT: Lol even Ness mains are saying right now their matchup is 55-45 for Diddy. We really got to show all these chums that Diddy is sitll not to be messed with.

 

[bc1910]

Oh yeah for sure. I think some of Diddy's MUs have evened out but for my own part I still wouldn't say Greninja beats Diddy, I think the MU is probably dead even at 5-5 or maybe 55-45 Diddy's favour (but before it was probably 6-4 Diddy so that's still a major improvement).

I don't play Ness but I can't imagine he beats Diddy all of a sudden if he lost prepatch, in fairness I'm not sure how he did prepatch but I doubt MUs would swing from Diddy's favour to disadvantage for Diddy. The nerfs just weren't that harsh. I think it's more likely to see a few MUs swing from Diddy's favour to even, and a few to swing from even to slightly disadvantageous. The patch definitely made a difference (purely from a numbers point of view, his killing aerials are flat out worse) but it's far too optimistic to think you're gonna beat Diddy all of a sudden if you did badly prepatch haha.

It's definitely not wise to sleep on Diddy and assume that he was trashed, he's still an extremely good character who's probably top 5. He just takes more effort to get kills with now, which is probably fair.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Exactly! The nerfs aren't so bad. People are claiming now Diddy only can kill with "hard reads with F Smash" like he's Ganon / Ike all of a sudden. I agree with you as well that no matchup will have significant changes for Diddy, just some are more evened out. Pre-patch, Ness was probably at a disadvantage ranging from 45 to 40, and I simply cannot see how that would suddenly jump to 50 ~ 55 for Ness (which Ness mains are claiming).

Seriously, it's like I read in the competitive character analysis thread: no accurate match up data can be found on character boards. I really like to avoid this kind of superiority complex, especially considering the negative stigma Diddy, and Diddy players, already have. I blame the stupid bangwagonists who abused D Throw U Air to for doing this, it's a good ridiance they jumped off after the nerfs.

I'd like it if people like you, @ bc1910 came around here more often, providing match up analysises from the other character's perspective. This creates much healthier discussion, and actual progress in getting to understand matchups.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Ness vs Diddy really didn't change that much. The gameplan is to throw them off stage and gimp them early as usual.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ness vs Diddy really didn't change that much. The gameplan is to throw them off stage and gimp them early as usual.

Peanuts also do really well against Ness, and other floaty characters off stage. If you manage to hit them with it, it sets up really good for a D Air, F Air, or even Side B (grab or kick) to finish them off real quick.

 

[bc1910]

I totally agree, character boards really can't be trusted to give fair ratios for their characters. They are usually much too generous with their MU ratios. On the Greninja board we try really hard not to over or undersell him on ratios (and it is easy to undersell him after his original nerfs) but honestly I barely give ratios any more, there's just so much discrepancy over what the numbers actually mean. Like, some people think 55:45 is a soft counter while others think it's barely different from even. I think measured discussion and MU analysis is way more valuable than just slapping a ratio on something and calling it a day. I usually just stick to saying that I feel a MU is slightly advantageous or around even or whatever.

Thanks, I'm perfectly happy to provide analysis from a Greninja main's point of view and I'm glad you find it helpful. I think it's really important to get players of different characters speaking to each other about MUs, otherwise you usually wind up with people being a little biased toward their own character.

(Although I must say it's nice to see most people in the Smash community clearly believe in their character's potential and give them good MU ratios to reflect that. I've played games before where people just downplay their mains non-stop and it's a lot more negative overall while still being inaccurate).

 

[t!MmY]

From a Kirby player's perspective:

Pre-patch, Diddy was a hard match-up for Kirby simply because of the launching power of Diddy's aerials. Kirby's aerial attacks are easy to beat out in general, so Diddy could safely throw out whatever he wanted whereas Kirby had to be very precise in putting an attack out.

Post-patch, the general game play and strategies really haven't changed. Diddy has air superiority and long-range options and Kirby is still Kirby. The nerfs to the damage/knockback of Diddy's U-air and F-air help Kirby in a roundabout kind of way: he can take more hits before being KO'd but Diddy doesn't necessarily struggle to get those hits.

An important change to note is how the 'Hoo Hah' works on Kirby in regards to a direct KO. Pre-patch when Kirby was around 80%, or so, a Throw could lead directly to a U-air/F-air and finish Kirby off pretty quickly. With the reduction of damage on the U-air/F-air, Diddy has to get Kirby to higher percents which no longer coincides with the Hoo Hah. In other words, the Hoo Hah doesn't necessarily lead to quick KOs, making for a less lopsided match-up.

I think what these changes affect is that Diddy has to play a little less wrecklessly than before to counteract the differences in KO percents from then to now. Since Kirby is theoretically surviving to higher percents he can become more threatening due to Rage. So, while the match-up can still be said to be in Diddy's favor, the 'easy factor' got toned down noticeably which at least gives Kirby more of a chance.

 

[busken]

The MU has changed alot. Diddy lost a kill confirm(Hoo Hah) which means that he can't kill of a grab anymore, unless the opponent is at a high percent and back thrown at the ledge. This loss of kill confirm is really detrimental to Diddy's Neutral because this game rewards characters that can kill the fastest. In a meta where a stock down and having low kill confirm means that diddy's kill power is now lackluster compared to high tiers like Luigi and Ness. The Sheik MU has also changed because Sheik has poor kill confirm, but no longer has to worry about dying of HOO HAH. Meaning it might be in Shiek favor since her lagless normals make her neutral game so good; ultimately meaning that Sheik can win neutral and might now be a stock down.
TLDR: Diddy's lost of Kill Confirm off grab means he has a harder time killing first; something this meta rewards.

 

[Pazx]

I think you guys are criminally underestimating just how good uthrow uair was pre-patch. That's one of the stupidest kill confirms in Smash history and I can say without doubt that pre-patch Diddy beat every single character. If we did an experiment where Halberd and Delfino were the only legal stages I think pre-patch Diddy would have several genuine 8-2 or worse matchups.

"Diddy's matchups are similar, just slightly more difficult because he's more or less the same character" is an incorrect statement about Diddy's post-patch matchup spread. If he had a guaranteed setup from a throw that killed between 100% and 150% then this would be the case despite all the other nerfs (effectively turning a few 7:3s into 6:4s and 6:4s into 5:5s). He still has bananas which are incredible, the nerfed fair can still wall out certain characters, his grab combos and aerial game in general are both still strong but now he has a lot more to worry about. Pre-patch consistently ending stocks at 80% or lower meant you could afford to be outplayed a little in neutral. Now Diddy has to work harder to build percentage on his opponent (due to damage reductions), a percentage which he has to get higher than he did to kill people pre-patch, and the window for getting a guaranteed kill off of a grab is much smaller, almost negligible on some stage and character combinations. Once your opponent is outside that % range they just need to respect bananas far more and killing with Diddy becomes far more of a chore. It also means Diddy has to deal with opponents who have rage far more often. Pre-patch you could never shield against Diddy, post-patch once you're at higher percentages it becomes safe (aside from bthrow).

All matchups need to be re-evaluated because our earlier discussion carried with it a lot of "we're the best character in the game, therefore we win easily" when a lot of characters (that now probably have 5:5 or 6:4 matchups in their favour against us) actually have quite good tools for dealing with Diddy. Luigi and Ness seem like prime candidates to (re)discuss as both of them beat us at the one thing the lesser Diddy players relied on pre-patch: killing from throws. I'd also like to rediscuss Ness personally because it's a matchup I've had far more difficulty with post-patch (worst dual main ever, right guys). I think he gimps us like no tomorrow, PKT can eat my ass.

To everyone reading this I highly recommend joining the Diddy Kong Skype group. I also recommend we post anything we discuss that's important on Skype to these boards but that doesn't happen too much.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I wish I could join the Skype group, but I don't use Skype, neither do I have a webcam to be using it effectively, and being on a shared pc also is a disadvantage but I like the analysis you gave here.

Yes, killing with Diddy is far more of a chore now. He had no problems killing off earlier, obviously, but now he's around Sheik or Pikachu level in getting KOs, which sucks. D Air is still a lovely gimping move, so trying to get these would be rewarding, but Diddy isn't so great off-stage because of his nerfed recovery. If he only would be able to edgeguard effectively like he did in Brawl, he could capitalise on that, like DK has been doing in all the games since Melee.

I doubt the matchups have changed that much. And I honestly also doubt Diddy had 80-20 matchups pre-patch. But I can see your point still. Shielding against Diddy isn't a good thing to do, as a throw combo will still hurt, and the command grab from Side B deals with shields easily. Diddy is still a character with most of his strenghts in tact, but the extra time he needs to take care of certain characters can sometimes hurt him due to how precise he has to be in his constant 'flow'.

Diddy, more than any character so far, is reliant on constant movement which makes his neutral game one of the best. Two viable projectiles also work for this, as well as his movement speed and quick aerials. He will still rack up damage extremely quickly, which is not something to take lightly. And banana needs to be respected indeed at higher %s, as it links good into a F Smash.

Luigi and Ness might be worse now, but definitely not in their advantage. If anything 50-50 at worst. Luigi can still be killed relatively early from the top, even with the nerfed U Air. Around ~120%-ish. Definitely earlier than most others. So Luigi actually isn't much of a big deal, especially since he hates projectiles and lacks mobility.