Matchup Analysis #3 - Luigi

[LCC Son-in-Law]

LADIES, GENTLEMAN AND PEOPLE OF ALL GENDERS, WELCOME TO OUR THIRD LITTLE MAC MATCH-UP DISCUSSION.
IN THIS CORNER, ONCE KNOWN AS THE KING OF SECOND BANANAS, THE LITTLE BROTHER, PLAYER 2 AND GREEN MARIO BUT NOW HAVING GROWN OUT OF HIS BROTHER'S SHADOW AND INTO GLORY AND FAME OF HIS OWN, THIS FLAMBOYANT DAREDEVIL IN GREEN IS NOW KNOWN FOR HIS SINISTER EXPLOITS AS MR. L, HIS COURAGEOUS GHOSTBUSTING IN HIS OWN HOME, REVOLUTIONIZING YOUTUBE WITH HIS MOTHERHOOD AND EVEN AN ENTIRE YEAR OF TRIUMPH BEING DEDICATED TO HIM, STANDING TALLER THEN THE SHADOWS ONCE CAST UPON HIM, IT'S LUIGI!

CAN LITTLE MAC EMERGE VICTORIOUS IN THIS BATTLE OF THE UNDERDOGS TURNED CHAMPIONS? OR WILL LUIGI COLDLY STARE HIM DOWN AS HE BLASTS PAST HIM LIKE HE DID HIS BROTHER IN A KART RACE?

WEEGEE TIME! DISCUSS!

Opening post intro created by @TakeYourHeart. Thank you for creating another thread opening!
Discussion will end by August 26th.

 

[Splash Damage]

The main game plan as a Little Mac against Luigi surrounds a few factors:
1.Luigi has a very bad approach game.
There are almost no ways Luigi can reliably approach that will also land him a followup unless he gets a grab, of which he has no true combos into. Mac can easily, with the combination of D-tilt and Jab1(both moves which are positive on shield and create a close-range wall), prevent Luigi from getting a grab at almost all times in neutral, and even when he does manage to land one, Little Mac can escape the proceeding strings with up B until ~30% even without DI. The closest thing Luigi has to a combo into grab is the Fireball, which brings me to factor 2:
2.Little Mac can, with no commitment whatsoever, reliably and benefeitingly deal with any amount of fireball spacing.
Fireballs have very low priority and can be beaten out by absolutely any of Mac's moves(I mean barring aerials but that's neither here nor there). This includes both of his main walling tools, Dtilt and Jab1. Dtilting in a rhythm with the fireballs not only prevents Luigi from getting a grab due to the constant threat of Jab1 or Up B, but it also builds KO meter. Yes, clanking with projectiles, including Fireball, builds KO punch meter as though it connected with another fighter. This also means you can attempt to use facing-away U-tilts to wall him out as well as it builds more meter off of clanks, though it's best to go with D-tilt due to the increased speed. If you really want to build the meter and Luigi is at a safe distance, you can even opt to Fsmash through the Fireball, effectively building 3x the meter than you would have off of a clank, and putting a threatening hitbox in front of you that cannot be shieldgrabbed due to Luigi's traction. Which brings up 3:
3:Everything is more safe on Luigi's shield.
Luigi's high shield pushback makes Mac's biggest onstage weakness, being shields and the constant threat of a shieldgrab, much less prevalent and dangerous. You can be more daring with your punishes so long as they're well spaced and not perfect shielded, and don't have to respect his shield nearly as much as other characters. Fsmash, dFsmash, and to an extent Ftilt/Dsmash all give Luigi too much pushback to perform any legitimate punish OoS.

All of these considered, the general gameplan of Little Mac v. Luigi is as such:
-Wall him out with D-tilt and Jab1.
-When the fireball spacing starts, pick an option to safely deal with it. You can opt for clanking w/D-tilt or U-tilt(Dtilt is better due to lack of commitment and potentially staling it to enable more combos with it), or using Fsmash to SA through it and build more meter.

Spoiler

Math:
Dtilt:~7% out of 334% each clank-48 total clanks to fill the meter
Utilt:~8% out of 334% each clank-42 total clanks to fill the meter
Fsmash:7% out of 100% each SA-14 Fireballs to fill the meter

-When he gets a grab setup, especially at low %, DI away and attempt to Nair or Up B(Up B is better overall, especially for escaping combos, but Nair is also good to use due to the lower commitment enabling you to still be safe if he reads an escape option)
-When he adapts to no longer trying to approach head on and begins approaching w/aerials, SA through the aerial with Up Smash/Fsmash to build meter, then continue to convert with whatever you please, potentially even an Up B at later % to net a kill.
-Don't attempt to overcommit for kills. Luigi's shield is rather safe to hit, yes, but if he manages to perfect shield an overzealous up smash with rage, that's an easy d-throw>down B. Stay to the safe guaranteed kill combos such as D-tilt>Up-B.
With all this in mind, I believe Mac v Luigi is a fight that Mac wins. So long as you're overall smart with you recoveries and neutral, Luigi has a very hard time breaking through Mac's walls and overall neutral.

Extra little bit of info: Luigi's %s at which he falls victim to the BF jab reset setups:I didn't want to give these up
Dthrow-0%
uFsmash-12%
U-tilt-21%
D-tilt-62%
Up Air-77%

 

[jet56]

To be honest, i was curious on this matchup, but after mastering shield pressure with mac to a great extent (yeah you can shield pressure safely), i don't fear it nearly as much. being a bit of a M2k and a love for frame data, ill put up some of luigi's faster moves, i won't bother to list macs, there is a main thread for those who are interested.

Luigi:

jab: 3
D and Utilt: 9
Ftilt:10
neutral b: 6

thats it. those are the only moves 10 frames or under, and the priority on them and spacing is pretty bad. mac can outspace and outprioritize all these moves (except jab in some cases) with his ftilt alone, and thats not counting all his other under 10 frame moves. and since as splash said his shield pushback is greater, you can just pressure and pressure safely without too much fear. as long as he doesn't grab you, you will be just fine.

I will do a more detailed analysis on the matchup by the three phases (neutral, follow-up, recovery) if someone asks. for now i will just give a brief overview on how i view it.

neutral: as i said, mac dominates this, as luigi can only really space with fireballs (which got nerfed in cooldown) and go for grabs, and all his moves are easily punishable by mac.
Follow-up: luigi as fantastic follow-ups, and will rack on damage easy if he gets him in the air by grab or other means. little mac does have follow ups, dtilt to everything (jab, ftilt, sideb, upb, i could go on.) and utilt can start a juggle for mac as well.
recovery: mac can't kill luigi off stage too easily, since luigi has great offstage game. but he can still get it done if he reads a recovery option right and punishes with dsmash or usmash depending. upb works if he recovers super high, and luigis do that often for some reason. mac on the other hand just has to mix it up on recovery as he always does, because as we all know, its bad. like many other characters, luigi can abuse his aerial game and fireballs to gimp mac easily.

Overall: Mac wins neutral almost all the time. if luigi can't get in and start his combos, he is screwed. Splash covered most of the other stuff i was going to post. im just slow :/

 

[Laitome]

Question: How do you guys deal with Luigi's nair?

It interrupts rapid jab and gentleman and it frustrates me to no end.

 

[Splash Damage]

Just go for only Jab1 and shield the incoming Nair. Jab1 is active on frame 1 and as such is not possibly reactible, so you can just go for only Jab1 and shield instead of go for the gentleman or rapid. Out of that, your options area whatever you want them to be. Punish with shield grab, up smash OoS, Up B OoS, Dtilt OoS…The list goes on. if you want to really be that guy, Jab1>Read their nair>Counter is a pretty funny option, but not an optimal one. Unless, I guess, you value the freshness of your other moves that much.

 

[TriTails]

I'd rather throw my character out of the window rather than approaching Mac.

To be honest, i was curious on this matchup, but after mastering shield pressure with mac to a great extent (yeah you can shield pressure safely), i don't fear it nearly as much. being a bit of a M2k and a love for frame data, ill put up some of luigi's faster moves, i won't bother to list macs, there is a main thread for those who are interested.

Luigi:

jab: 3
D and Utilt: 9
Ftilt:10
neutral b: 6

thats it. those are the only moves 10 frames or under, and the priority on them and spacing is pretty bad. mac can outspace and outprioritize all these moves (except jab in some cases) with his ftilt alone, and thats not counting all his other under 10 frame moves. and since as splash said his shield pushback is greater, you can just pressure and pressure safely without too much fear. as long as he doesn't grab you, you will be just fine.

I will do a more detailed analysis on the matchup by the three phases (neutral, follow-up, recovery) if someone asks. for now i will just give a brief overview on how i view it.

neutral: as i said, mac dominates this, as luigi can only really space with fireballs (which got nerfed in cooldown) and go for grabs, and all his moves are easily punishable by mac.
Follow-up: luigi as fantastic follow-ups, and will rack on damage easy if he gets him in the air by grab or other means. little mac does have follow ups, dtilt to everything (jab, ftilt, sideb, upb, i could go on.) and utilt can start a juggle for mac as well.
recovery: mac can't kill luigi off stage too easily, since luigi has great offstage game. but he can still get it done if he reads a recovery option right and punishes with dsmash or usmash depending. upb works if he recovers super high, and luigis do that often for some reason. mac on the other hand just has to mix it up on recovery as he always does, because as we all know, its bad. like many other characters, luigi can abuse his aerial game and fireballs to gimp mac easily.

Overall: Mac wins neutral almost all the time. if luigi can't get in and start his combos, he is screwed. Splash covered most of the other stuff i was going to post. im just slow :/

If that's Luigi's frame data, it's horribly wrong through and through.

Also. I like on how people think Luigi is just a grab bot in this MU. B-air beats F-tilt BTW.

 

[jet56]

I'd rather throw my character out of the window rather than approaching Mac.


If that's Luigi's frame data, it's horribly wrong through and through.

Also. I like on how people think Luigi is just a grab bot in this MU. B-air beats F-tilt BTW.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/smash/Luigi/Frame_Data this is where i got it from. however, you may be right i was looking at another frame data sheet, which had different frames for luigi.

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8 this one has different frames for luigi, like his smashes, tilts, and others. my bad if i put up the wrong frames, its hard to discern which one is right or not.

i must apologize to all for posting the wrong frames for luigi, i choose the wrong site to look at -.-.

luigi's 10 frames and under moves are as follows:

Dtilt 5
Utilt 5
Ftilt 5
jab 2
Usmash 9
Dsmash 6
Fair 7
Nair 3
Bair 6
Uair 5
Dair 10
Grab 6
Dash Grab 8
pivot grab 9

and this does change my opinion on the matchup, while luigi still has a hard time approaching, he can punish mac quite easily after taking a second look. i will look more into it.

 

[TriTails]

N-air is F3.
F-air is frame 7.
Dash grab is F8.
Pivot is F9.

Luigi has the fastest attack speed in the game. Go figure.

BTW. I think this MU simply come down on who wins footsies. LM is a combo food (D-throw F-air to N-air) and is easily killed. However, LM has more powerful moves in his ground attacks and a lot of them are hard to punish (Smashes). Luigi has one of the best punish game (Whiff a laggy attack = FJP and you die at like 55%), and it's very brutal. Though, LM doesn't have much laggy attacks, and punish just about as hard.

Most of my vs LMs are pretty much 'Win footsies and win'. I don't really try to go for Fireballs much. Mac can't force Luigi to approach and so can't Luigi. This match basically comes down on who approaches first as approaching the opposition can be fatal if done badly.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong tho.

 

[jet56]

agreed. at first i thought luigi was a slower character who needed a grab or juggle to get started, but he has enough tools to punish and throw out safe moves, without having to approach. i find his nair ends up interuppting me when im in the middle of pressuring him, sometimes even when i go from my jab to D tilt.

p.s. i edited my previous post, using the frames you provided. i think i meant Fair 7 but put Nair 7 instead.

 

[Splash Damage]

Also. I like on how people think Luigi is just a grab bot in this MU. B-air beats F-tilt BTW.

Using B-air to beat out ftilt stales one of your best kill moves/moves to get Mac offstage, doesn't allow for conversions off of it, adds over a full bar to the KO meter, and runs the risk of instead getting hit by Fsmash as it is impossible to do Bair on reaction to Ftilt. Like I said above, if Luigi attempts to approach with an aerial, Mac can easily out-prioritize it with any of his smashes or simply P-pivot away into a D-tilt. Additionally, unless it's Nair at low %, Luigi's aerials often won't lead into a lengthy/dangerous conversion if Mac doesn't react in time due to Up B's invincibility.

BTW. I think this MU simply come down on who wins footsies. LM is a combo food (D-throw F-air to N-air) and is easily killed. However, LM has more powerful moves in his ground attacks and a lot of them are hard to punish (Smashes). Luigi has one of the best punish game (Whiff a laggy attack = FJP and you die at like 55%), and it's very brutal. Though, LM doesn't have much laggy attacks, and punish just about as hard.

I can agree with this, and it's essentially why I believe the MU is the way it is. Little mac is one of the few characters with contestable and/or superior grounded frame data to Luigi(On top of Mac having the range advantage), as well as vastly superior movement speed and his matching perfect pivot length to give him a much needed ability to fade in and out/bait out grabs. Mac is easily able to prevent any grab setup with the combination of Jab1 and D-tilt, and Luigi's grab combos are what make him so good. They're the core of his punish game. Pair Mac's close-range walling with Luigi's shield sliding making him virtually unable to shieldgrab against well-spaced smashes/ftilts, and you have a neutral that's really poor for Luigi's toolset. Sure he has high-priority aerials that can get some damage in, but those often either don't have guaranteed followups, won't beat out a SA smash attack, or can simply be shielded.

As an aside, Mac's F1 Jab will likely stop up B from connecting even if he whiffs something super bad, lest he hits a perfect shield…*shudder*

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

I'm going to extend the discussion period until Wednesday the 26th. Sorry for the change.