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I want to main Marth in 3.5 but I also have a decent Fox and I'm debating whether or not I should just main Fox depending on Marth's match up spread. I know Marth has mostly even match ups and Fox probably does too because while they both punish characters pretty hard they also can get punished hard themselves, so I'd like a break down of Marth's match ups vs the whole cast with a simple format like this:
Marth vs Fox: Even
Marth vs Wario: Advantage
Marth vs Mewtwo: Disadvantage
I know that's asking a little bit of effort but I'd appreciate it if somebody with knowledge could make a list like that of the whole cast.
Asking for such isn't as simple as that; MUs take time to decide on, and 3.5 only just came out recently, so many are bound to have changed. Alternatively, you could do some research of your own and read through Marth's and Fox's MU discussion threads for info on MUs from 3.02 and earlier.
It doesn't have to be so accurate that it's Marth's gospel I'm just looking for something generalized. To make it simpler, maybe we could make a list of match ups that are 60:40 advantage or disadvantage and greater. 50:50 to 55:45 is negligible imo considering so many of Marth's match ups fall into that category.
You'd still have to go off of 3.02 MU ratios, since 3.5 hasn't even been out for a month yet; there's not nearly enough tournies to base them off of. In case you didn't know as a non-PM player, most of the roster received huge nerfs this update, so many MUs are prone to lose/gain advantages...we just don't really know all of them yet.
tbh I really couldn't offer what you're looking for anyhow since I just keep Marth as a secondary for my bad MUs. But I can say that Marth was one of the few to mostly avoid the roster-wide 3.5 nerfs (others being Sheik, R.O.B., some others I don't remem), which indirectly buffs him. He already had mostly even-ish MUs before afaik, so...I may not be able to offer any numbers, but I'd say Marth could safely cover most of his PM MUs without too much worry.
IK Charizard and Ivysaur were pretty bad MUs in 3.02 because they could outrange him (he has trouble with Charizard's Nair, Ivysaur's D-tilt). Out of my mains from 3.02, I can tell you that:
40:60 in Melee, not sure in PM but still disadvantage.
(main difference is that her grab game isn't chains anymore, but she has D-throw/B-throw DI mixups that work in any MU well, so watch out for that. RAR is a Brawl tech that lets any character turnaround before jumping, so that they can B-air in the direction they were running towards. Sheik can really take advantage of this well to space B-airs more easily.)
advantage. idk the ratio, but it's pretty free for Marth.
R.O.B.'s aerials are all have a ton of startup lag besides F-air, but that only covers directly in front of him, so you can basically just juggle R.O.B.'s huge body all day without much worry. That, and you outrange his entire moveset (minus projectiles) by a lot, most of which has long-ish endlag that you can punish easily too; none of his approaches are safe without projectiles (F-tilt alone beats pretty much any approach he can come up with lol). He's super heavy, so you may have a hard time killing him (not uncommon for R.O.B.s to survive to 150-200% every few stocks), but he only gets three up/side-B boosts to recover. Even if you hit him away, he doesn't gain them back; grabbing the ledge gives him one more, but you're Marth so if you know what you're doing you should be able to catch that easily. If the R.O.B. shoots the gyro and picks it up, don't approach him unsafely while he's in shield or in the air. Shield/aerial Glide tossing is a Brawl tech that lets you throw items further/quicker by throwing it just as you roll/spot/air-dodge, and also moves the character further in whichever direction they traveled in. Just bait it out, shield or avoid it, and try get rid of it. Don't throw it back because chances are they'll catch it, and they know how to use it better than you. Beware R.O.B.'s godly side-up-B boosts to follow-up; if you're near the ceiling after getting hit away at high %, be prepared for him to travel above screen to U-air you. Or boost out and F-air/U-air/D-air you if you're recovering off stage. Or B-air/F-air when he's recovering. Or U-air you while he's under you and you're on a platform. There's a ton of jank things to look out for if you give him room to move, but as long as you're constantly pressuring him and not giving him distance to use projectiles or set up weird stuff off-stage, Marth can control the MU pretty solidly.
55:45 slight advantage to Marth
In 3.02, this was pretty tough on both sides. Zelda MUs generally revolved around how character's handled her zoning tool - Din's Fire (side-B) - approached her, and punished her laggy moves, but it's been mixed up a bit since the update. In 3.5, it's best to just ignore and avoid Din's, hit her if she's close enough and she's still stuck in the animation, and just watch out for if she "recalls" them (they can now be manually detonated and they travel back to her with a hitbox). The initial animation of teleport (up-B) takes a good...second? or so before she disappears, so if you're close enough, grab/hit her out of it (whether she's retreating on-stage, or if you're edge-guarding and she makes the mistake of teleporting within your jump out and F-air range). If you're not close enough, note the timing of the teleport and observe patterns to where she shows up (behind/in front of you, distances, how she attacks/retreats afterwards) and try anticipate where she'll show up to punish. Nayru's (neutral-B) used to be a good anti-pressure move, but it's range/invincibility/retreat-utility has been nerfed pretty bad; if they're throwing it out, just space it while the hitboxes are out, and punish it in the endlag. Zelda also sucks if you start juggling her. She has terrible anti-juggling options, excepting Nayru's tech she used to make her rise/fall away quickly out of hitstun, but 3.5 removed that. If you're pressuring/juggling her, all you should really have to worry about is her throwing out Lightning Kicks or a Nayru's, so just keep spacing properly if she's about to get out of hitstun. Same thing goes for approaching her while she's shielding - LKs and Nayrus are commonly used out of shield as well.
On another note, Fox is basically Melee Fox, but with a non-invincible shine, and much weaker (but still pretty ok) U-air and U-smash. He can handle every MU solidly, but just know that a quarter/third or so of the cast has 0-to-deaths on you if they know the MU better than you; that doesn't mean you still can't wreck them with usual Fox stuff though. Just think of those as new weird, jankier versions of Marth/Sheik MUs; equal-ish MUs where both punish each other to heck.
TL;DR: Marth is solid, Fox is solid. Whole cast got nerfed, but both of them are still strong; sorta got indirectly buffed by not getting nerfed nearly as bad, if at all. Both have to watch out for crazy jank in some MUs, but that's just PM and you'll learn them over time.
Thanks for all the info I really appreciate it! I was just getting into PM for real at the tail end of 3.02 and I've been playing melee since the game came out, so Marth and Fox are my most comfortable characters for sure. The main match ups I'm concerned about for Marth are Yoshi, Mewtwo, Lucario, Ike, Roy, and Sonic simply because I don't have much experience vs them.
Don't really know any of these MUs for Marth well besides Yoshi and Roy, but afaik:
Yoshi is basically Melee Yoshi, but now with actual OOS options. Still has a pretty terrible recovery, but side-B travels further now. Probably has a few buffs to KB/%s on most moves or something, but the MU feels pretty similar to Melee; edgeguards are super free and all. Advantage imo, haven't looked it up but I play it pretty often.
Mewtwo was probably terrible for Marth (idk; never played/watched it), but only cos M2 was 3.02 god tier and beat everyone. He's been nerfed a ton in 3.5, so it might be more doable. Definitely wouldn't go Fox in this one though, since at least before the update spacies were pretty free for him.
Lucario is the MU no one really knows; super underrated and underexplored character, but ton of potential. I guess you could just try outspace him because his range is tiny, but if he gets in (and I imagine if you face a good Lucario in bracket they'll know how to do so), you'll probably get screwed. Lucarios are scary. I'd go Fox, but only just cos I'm guessing Marth wouldn't be able to handle the pressure.
idk Ike vs Marth, but I'd imagine he may have an advantage. He has Marth-ish range on several of his quicker moves, and has much more diverse tools and means to approach. Think Falcon in terms of how well he can pressure/approaches/crazy distance edgeguards, but with a sword. He has great vertical and horizontal recovery, but he can't travel diagonally at all, so if you hit him out horizontally and low-ish (without the chance to charge his side-B enough), he's finished. Avoid stages with walls, since it lets him recover better. I would look up how it is for Fox in case it's better, but I may be wrong about Marth's MU with him too (just guessing based on how I play it as Sheik).
Roy is just a spacie Marth; it can be a close MU, but you beat him. Finally an MU with a vid ik of the top of my head lol; look up M2K (Marth) vs. Sethlon (Roy), not sure which tourney. You outrange him (minus his F-tilt), but he has spacie SHFFL speed. Play it like you're playing a hyper-aggressive Marth in a ditto; space better than him, and just be careful and punish. Keep in mind that he's Falcon-ish weight. Avoid getting SHFFL U-aired; Roy can juggle most characters to death with that...not sure how you'd get around that since I've never played the MU, but I'd def look that up before you might have to face one in tourney (it's Roy's bread and butter; if they're anything half-decent, you'll have to end up dealing with it). Moves that differ significantly from Marth's moveset that you should know about are B-air (less coverage range, but kills well), his side-B dance thing is stronger and the 4th one can turn around to hit behind him, and his neutral-B is a legit kill option (not just a janky mixup like Marth's).
Sonic has stupid combo game, but from what I've heard it isn't as free for him after 3.5 nerfs. His recovery was also nerfed into crap tier, so just hit him off and edgeguard semi-decently and the stock is yours. Again, no idea how neutral game or combo punishes work in this MU now; I'd just treat it the same way as the Lucario MU advice I gave above, although Marth can probably handle Sonic more easily now that he's been nerfed heavily.
I'd suggest taking a look at the Marth vids thread, and PM General Discussion board's best player by character thread for vid references; given the crazy MUs in PM, the best way to learn besides reading is just watching a ton of tourney play until you learn about any jank that could catch you off guard, and how to handle weird non-Melee stuff. That's basically PM meta in a nutshell - play your mains solidly, and just try maintain and adapt that good play against a diverse range of weird strats. Marth can do that well/easily given that he just needs to out space everything as usual; if you ever find yourself playing an MU you're lost in, I would just play super safe for the first few stocks of your match to observe their approaches, until you feel you have a good idea of their options.
That all sounds pretty solid and similar to what I had in mind. I have a pretty good dash dance/grab game with Marth as well as dtilt spacing out of movement, so I could always fall back on that when I'm not sure. I think I'd definitely go Marth in match ups I'm not sure about because everybody is probably well versed in the Fox match up and I don't want to lose the first match of a set because I wasn't aware of janky stuff on him. I also have a decent MK and Pit as well, but I don't want to include them too much for consistency's sake.
MK is pretty solid, Pit idk about after the 3.5 nerfs. Keep in mind that a lot of the advice I gave may not be completely credible; I don't hang around the PM Marth boards much so idk how most Marths feel about MUs, and was just basing everything off of experience and the occasional thread I skimmed months ago. If someone else gives advice here that conflicts, I'd take their word over mine. Good luck with starting PM lol.
As a marth main in melee, marth tends to struggle against fast characters that can punish easily marth's laggy moves. Not just fox, sheik, also falcon, even a good pikachu is a bad matchup for marth. Also good crouch cancelers can give you a hard time if you don't know how to deal with it (Peach, Samus, Yoshi)
Maybe in PM, chars I would think of..
-All of the above (specially sheik and PM falcon)
-Squirtle, really small and fast with Side B
-Sonic, good speed.
-ZSS, speed and also can space as well as marth.
-Maybe Tlink? speed + projectiles, but then he is kinda easy to edgeguard, plus on mid range he is screwed against marth.
For a secondary, Sheik and Fox can take out almost anybody, and don't have any real hard matchups. I think they are gonna be the next mew2/pit in 3.5
I went to a local today and got 7th out of 32. I lost to Fox and Roy (flare blade is the most noob move in the game). With Fox I only beat noobs but vs better players I did much better with Marth and Pit. People know the Fox MU too well to just have a pocket Fox.
Does anybody have any tips on beating Ganondorf in the neutral game? I had to fight a Ganondorf in a tournament and had to be incredibly campy because I was terrified of getting hit and dying super early. Stage counter-picks I tried were large stages, however this players had multiple mains (Ganon, Link, Pit) who made things hard if I picked large stage. I solo main Marth, so I don't have access to these counter-pick options.
The first thing is don't jump for any reason unless you have the advantage with aerial pressure. The rule of thumb vs any character is you should only be swinging your sword if you have a good reason. Just the threat of Marth's range is good enough to not need to be throwing out hitboxes all the time. Dash dancing and d tilts are the safest options vs pretty much the entire cast.
For Ganon specifically, I'd say dash dance at a safe distance to gauge how he's going to try to get in on you, and then bait out whatever his move(s) of choice are and grab him. Fthrow into fair strings are pretty solid or uthrow to a platform for pressure. I would say fthrow is better because once Ganon is offstage he shouldn't be recovering for any reason vs Marth. He also has awesome grab combos vs Marth but your grab range is much better, so play it safe until you get a grab and then keep pressuring him until he's in an edge guard position.
Does anybody have any tips on beating Ganondorf in the neutral game? I had to fight a Ganondorf in a tournament and had to be incredibly campy because I was terrified of getting hit and dying super early. Stage counter-picks I tried were large stages, however this players had multiple mains (Ganon, Link, Pit) who made things hard if I picked large stage. I solo main Marth, so I don't have access to these counter-pick options.
Ganon thrives on players taking initiative and reading their approaches. If played patiently, Marth destroys Ganon in the neutral game, since none of Ganon's work unless Marth is caught in the endlag of a move/bad approach. Therefore, Ganon is sorta restricted to defensive plays like Arty Vortex (I think that's what it's called) until you throw out something unsafe and he punishes it. Arty Vortex is just throwing out SHFFL'ed F-airs in a similar manner to how Marth can SHFFL F-airs defensively - this works really effectively because of its deceivingly long range and strong lingering hitboxes. Not sure if this is written about either, but almost every Ganon I've ever played loves to fake an approach on shielding opponents, double jump, and then punish with their F-air/D-air if they drop their shield (since they were anticipating a hit and punishing straight after). Also, don't try attacking to interrupt his many slow-startup moves unless you're confident yours will hit first; it's not much different from how Ness mains don't mind opponents jumping out to punish PK Thunder, only to mistime it and get hit by PK Thunder 2. His slow aerials can also give you a false security when he's edgeguarding you; if you can, up-B'ing early to hit him before a F-air catches you is sometimes your best option. If he stays on stage while you're recovering, remember to sweetspot or he'll D-tilt > F-air. Even if you are going for sweetspots, be prepared to SDI+tech a run-off D-air. In contrast to his slow aerials, his jabs come out quickly and at awkward intervals, so if he's jabbing to shield pressure, don't shield grab, jump out, or drop shield unless you're confident you timed it correctly (if you get jabbed on shield, I would get ready to immediately grab/roll away/jump as soon as the second jab hits).
TL;DR - I'd just play a bit safer than normal by keeping Ganon's deceiving ranges in mind, the fact that double-jump fake-outs are common, how his slow-startup aerials can throw you off (don't drop sheild early), and not falling for his weirdly timed jab shield pressure.
What do you guys think about the kirby matchup? I'm on the other side as a kirby main and I feel like its in marth's favor big time. D-throw, d-throw, tipper seems free to me and kills on maps like wario ware at 0%. I have a hard time combo'ing because marth can just spam fair.
What do you guys think the ratio is for marth vs kirby?
if kirby doesn't fold to run up > shield > wait > grab then it's pretty even. if you don't know how to WD away on dash then it's probably pretty hard. if marth doesnt know he can dashgrab kirby's crouch it's probably pretty hard for marth instead.
Ganon thrives on players taking initiative and reading their approaches. If played patiently, Marth destroys Ganon in the neutral game, since none of Ganon's work unless Marth is caught in the endlag of a move/bad approach. Therefore, Ganon is sorta restricted to defensive plays like Arty Vortex (I think that's what it's called) until you throw out something unsafe and he punishes it. Arty Vortex is just throwing out SHFFL'ed F-airs in a similar manner to how Marth can SHFFL F-airs defensively - this works really effectively because of its deceivingly long range and strong lingering hitboxes. Not sure if this is written about either, but almost every Ganon I've ever played loves to fake an approach on shielding opponents, double jump, and then punish with their F-air/D-air if they drop their shield (since they were anticipating a hit and punishing straight after). Also, don't try attacking to interrupt his many slow-startup moves unless you're confident yours will hit first; it's not much different from how Ness mains don't mind opponents jumping out to punish PK Thunder, only to mistime it and get hit by PK Thunder 2. His slow aerials can also give you a false security when he's edgeguarding you; if you can, up-B'ing early to hit him before a F-air catches you is sometimes your best option. If he stays on stage while you're recovering, remember to sweetspot or he'll D-tilt > F-air. Even if you are going for sweetspots, be prepared to SDI+tech a run-off D-air. In contrast to his slow aerials, his jabs come out quickly and at awkward intervals, so if he's jabbing to shield pressure, don't shield grab, jump out, or drop shield unless you're confident you timed it correctly (if you get jabbed on shield, I would get ready to immediately grab/roll away/jump as soon as the second jab hits).
TL;DR - I'd just play a bit safer than normal by keeping Ganon's deceiving ranges in mind, the fact that double-jump fake-outs are common, how his slow-startup aerials can throw you off (don't drop sheild early), and not falling for his weirdly timed jab shield pressure.
I was wondering if there is any good way to play against him on short stages. The Ganon I played against I could win against, but only if I took him to a large map and played the waiting game by just dash dancing all day and waiting for him to do something unsafe. The biggest problem I see with this matchup is that for the most part both characters are played the same way; waiting for the opponent to make a mistake. I feel like spacing myself well outside of his fair / bair range and punishing fairs and bairs with fairs (capitalizing on extending his hurtboxes out) could be useful. Against most characters, if the opponent jumps into the air, they're usually in a good spot against Marth, since they've made a commitment. I feel like I'm going to have to experiment with a lot of different playstyles in this matchup. I particularly need to learn how to beat Ganon on small stages (Yoshi's Story, Warioware, etc...) which is a big struggle because Ganon is a scary guy and one fair on that stage can mean death a lot of the time (Marth easily dies at 30 to Ganon on Yoshi's). The double jump fakeout is really good to know though. I know a lot about that from extensive practice against Captain Falcon, who likes to bait out a grab or anything that puts my shield grab by double jumping while above me and hitting me with stomp/knee.
I'd also like to know, are Ganon's aerials safe on Marth's shield, I'm thinking specifically bairs, fairs and dairs. I think that they are, as I have difficulty punishing Captain Falcon's aerials on shield due to the sheer amount of push back and shield stun they have (specifically stomp/knee).
Marth's MU against Fox is definitely NOT even. Marth is often known to counter Fox and is often used as such. The chain grabs on spacies that marth has is way too prominent in that MU that even chain grabs alone is enough to warrant Marth having an edge over spacies. Fthrow can chain into itself often and ofc up throw can chain forever and link into Utilts and Uairs which further link into Dair spikes and Tippered Fsmashes. This is why M2K goes marth all the time against Foxes.
40:60 in Melee, not sure in PM but still disadvantage.
