Match-Up Thread Export: Toon Link

[SpeedyJ]

Toon Link

DIFFICULTY: 45:55 – Slight Disadvantage​

Summary

• Old Match-Up Thread
  
• Toon Link completely outcamps G&W with his projectiles.
  
• Toon Link has a hard time killing G&W (with Bucket Braking and playing the MU correctly).
  
• G&W can kill Toon Link with whatever he wants to and can do it at low percents too!
  
• Like in other G&W MUs, platforms must be abused and help in getting around projectiles.
  
• Neither character should be gimping one another. Toon Link has safe qualities for getting back on stage.
  
• G&W gets shut down relatively easily in this match-up so excellent spacing, baiting and logical thinking are crucial if Toon Link is to be beaten!
  

Tips

• When you D-Throw past 50% or so, Toon Link can stand up safely without worrying about D-Smash. We have two fantastic options here. We can either charge U-Smash or do jab -> grab if the Tink insists on standing up.
  
• Avoid Toon Link’s “up” moves at all times! We are super light so U-Air, U-Smash, and U-Tilt are his favourite ways to kill us (harder to Bucket Brake these). When launched, try to D-Air (not N-Air + Bucket). D-Air will save you 3-4% longer against Snake’s U-Tilt so it’s probably the same with Tink’s U-Tilt, U-Smash.
  
• His B-Air is extremely annoying and can be a great killer when fresh so allowing them to get stale can help you a lot – especially putting your mind at just a little bit more ease.
  

Mindset

• G&W has a hard time approaching Toon Link and this is made even harder when Toon Link is staying low. Keep this in mind so you can correct your game if it gets to a point like you're playing into a trap. Once he locks you down like this on the first stock, you’ve essentially lost. Try to mix-up your approaches to make it harder. Full hop “smart” air-dodges and keeping high e.g. double jump Up-B may help.
  
• Z-Air and use of projectiles can force G&W to the ground. Avoid the ground because we can’t really use it against Toon Link. Space very cautiously and do not make reckless actions (like spamming Up-B). Every method of approach should have reasoning behind it e.g. air-dodge into Bombs to catch them, not just because you feel like air-dodging.
  
• Toon Link is probably going to never stop throwing crap at you. Do not lose your patience. Lack of patience leads to recklessness which causes impulsive decisions which brings makes G&W get camped and punished and killed even harder.
  

Strategies

Above and Below

• Believe it or now G&W gets most of his damage on TL when he is under TL. G&W punishes Toon Link for landing on top of him; N-Air and U-Smash come to mind. Hyphen U-Smash may serve useful as well depending on the distance and the situation.
  
• A lot of “what beats what” is based on timing. Tink’s U-Air (almost always) will beat key especially if angled (and timed) correctly so spamming D-Air is not advisable. Maybe surprise him a few times but don’t use it often enough to the point he will be expecting it. His U-Smash (if timed correctly) can beat Key as well. Although if timed correctly our U-Smash can beat his.

Spacing

• Toon Link’s aerials especially B-Air can shut down G&W for the most part. Toon Link can also U-Smash G&W during a poorly spaced B-Air. You can just try to space better and mix up your moves so he has trouble anticipating your next move and deciding on a counter attack.
  
• Z-Air out ranges everything in G&W’s toolbox. You can Up-B to hit him out of Z-Air or bait on with an air-dodge and proceed to punish it with whatever depending on the situation.

Controlling the Space

• Unfortunately we cannot completely thrash him offstage. Z-edge-snap and projectiles stink. Some options could be to anticipate the Z-Air recovery and D-Tilt it to push him back away. Maybe a surprise F-Air offstage while he is doing something e.g. about to throw a Boomerang or while pulling out a bomb. When he is far from the stage, running off and Up-B into blast line COULD work. This is ridiculously good against many characters.
  
• Toon Link has a stronger ground game thanks to Z-Air, B-Air and F-Tilt in particular. The same applies for getting around these. Just don’t be predictable, don’t be reckless, don’t be stupid, don’t lose distance.
  
• Apart from the aerial spacing battle, he can get out of being juggled way better than other characters through the use of projectiles, small size and decent mobility. When he escapes, try to get underneath him and follow up with an U-Smash or whatever suits the fashion of the day!

Those Darn Projectiles!

• There is no solid way for G&W to completely deal with his projectiles. We have no reflector and cannot bucket them. All that can really be done is (as been repeated over 9000 times) make mix-ups, power-shield, and have good reactions. Try to see if the Tink gets into habits and do your best to punish him for them. Maybe he’s restricted himself to short hop double arrow for the majority of the time so approach from high?
  
• U-Air and Up-B can be used to avoid bombs. D-Tilt stops arrows and B-Air, F-Air, D-Tilt, F-Tilt pop Boomerangs.

Stages
Toon Link is an extremely campy character so it goes without saying, avoid flat and big stages! Platforms are good, not only because it helps you get around the projectiles but G&W takes advantage of them quite nicely in this match-up. Platforms aside, moving stages or those with transformations also work great in this match-up because they mess up the camping and G&W is just so good at manoeuvring all over the place.

Play on:

• Battlefield
• Yoshi's Island
• Lylat Cruise
• Delfino Plaza
• Halberd
• Frigate Orpheon
• Green Greens
• Rainbow Cruise

Avoid:

• Final Destination
• Smashville
• Pictochat
• Pokemon Stadium 1

Mumbo Jumbo

Frame Data

Spoiler

Neutral B: 18
Side B: 27
Up B: 11-53
Down B: N/A
Fsmash: 15, 27
Dsmash: 9 (front), 17 (back)
Usmash: 11
Ftilt: 10
Dtilt: 9
Utilt: 8
Nair: 6 (front), 13 (back)
Fair: 14
Bair: 6
Uair: 11
Dair: 12
Jab: 6, 12, 18
Dash Attack: 9
Standing Grab: 12 (lasts 5 frames)
Dash Grab: 14 (lasts 5 frames)
Pivot Grab: 15 (lasts 5 frames)
Zair: 11
* Variable input times

Videos
I got these from the Toon Link boards. If someone has better ones, please share.

• Utdzac vs Jerm
• Hylian vs MJG

Conclusion
After reading the export, it probably seems as if the match-up is hopeless for G&W. It is not! On paper it appears very difficult, and while incredibly challenging, it is still winnable and may actually seem a lot easier than you thought in practice.

Remember that Toon Link is a character that takes a lot of endurance to use so even though he never stops throwing crap at you, it may actually be more tiring for the Tink to maintain the lead, than it is for you to hold down shield. Try to get an early lead and let them tire out. Take every opportunity you can to punish, especially with F-Air (never ever short hop this ever by the way).

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to mix up your approaches. Being unpredictable combined with G&W’s funky nature will probably get you into a lot of nice positions where you can do some serious damage. Don’t forget you have stages with platforms at your disposal!

Lastly, don’t forget to bait! This leads to great punishes and increased spacing options! Baiting is especially important in this match-up!

Many thanks to the G&W boards and Toon Link boards for their support and contributions!


Notes

Spoiler

• The ratio used was taken from the Toon Link match-up thread.
• Visit the old match-up thread for more - possibly better? information.

Useful Quotes

Toon Link Boards

Spoiler

Mr. Game and Watch: 55:45 TL.
Things to keep in mind:
-Keep GnW away from you at all times. If you get above Gnw the air, just be careful and don't try to land on top of him. GnW gets most of his damage on TL when he is under TL.
-Keep throwing projectiles.
-Teching in this MU can be useful but TL doesn't necessarily need to tech. Past 50% or so, TL can just stand up without being down smashed. The problem with this though is that the opponent can just charge an Up Smash or do Jab to Grab if they see that the TL user keeps on standing up.
-All of TLs Aerials REALLY shut down GnW for the most part (especially bair).
-TL can Up Smash GnW during GnW's bair when GnW doesn't space his bair well.
-Zair out ranges everything GnW has.
-Up Air will beat GnWs down air if you angle it correctly.

Useful Moves:
Bombs, Zair, Bair, Nair, Uair, Boomerang.

Useful Kill Moves
Uair, Fair, Up smash, Up Tilt, Bair (depends on the staleness of this move)

Stages:
FD, PS1, SV

Ban:
Halberd, Green Greens, Yoshi's Island, BF

Videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qAyHeNl5yU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3ZvMkOCoQ

Makke

Spoiler

Toon Links uair beat G&Ws dair

Close range option OoS: utilt (Fast and can hit 2-3 times at low %s) upB (Trap spotdodgers)

If Toon Link is in the air with a Bomb, just uair him and ur safe from the bomb and sometimes the dair (Hes diar have sick priority, like hes uair)

When Toon Link have u in the air (Above you) he will go for the uair most of the time (My exp) and just wait for the dair, the duration of TLs uair is so long and allow him to hit you after a airdodge. (Tip: Land close the ledge)

Dont SH you aerials, u will get grabbed of the hookshot if u are to happy with them.

Ruuku

Spoiler

Anyway, dtilt and crouch->dtilt helps a great deal in this match up. Both against approaches and projectiles.

Splice

Spoiler

The only reason i can see this MU being in GaWs favour is coz TL cant actually kill.
At all.

TL outcamps GaW and basically puts up a wall of projectiles and set-ups using the different projectiles.
Abuse of platforms helps GaW a lot though here

You shouldnt really be able to gimp a Toon Link lol.
Toon Link definitely has the qualities to safely return to the stage

GaW doesnt get gimped either of course.

Zair and use of projectiles can lock down GaW and force him to use ground game which consists of... not a lot.

Toon link outcamps GaW (Projectiles)
Doesnt get ***** offstage (Z-edge-snap, Projectiles)
Doesnt get ***** on the ground (Zair, Bair, Ftilt)
And can outspace a GaW player with ease (Zair)
And he can get out of being juggled way better than other characters (use of projectiles and small size with decent mobility)

GaW cant approach TL very well at all if TL stays low
And TL doesnt need to approach for the most part

But then
Toon Link can really only kill with Uair and Usmash
GaW can kill with whatever you think fits the fashion of the day
and he can do it at low percents and pretty damn easily

but apart from that i think GaW gets shutdown quite heavily
He still has alright juggles and when TL has no projectiles GaW can get in there
GaW defs has a few redeeming capabilities buuut... not as much as TL has in dis MU

defs not in our favour
id say 60:40 myself
but not 65:35

could be 55:45 or 60:40 i guess...
its not 50:50 and its not our favour lol.

im pretty sure that's still winning.

The UpB goes past the Dair, hitting Toon Link, Toon Link takes damage, GaW doesnt.

I consider that to be UpB winning lol.

A2ZOMG

Spoiler

Stuff about Toon Link, well if he lands a B-air at low percents, he can usually combo into footstool D-air for some early damage (don't let this happen near the edge. Just keep that in mind). Z-air is annoying and sets up fairly well into Bomb toss, N-air, and U-smash if you're not careful. I think crouching ideally should be helpful in making it easier to powershield.

You can't edgeguard him the same way you can edgeguard most characters. Against most of the cast if they recover low, even Metaknight and Marth, you practically never have to worry about them challenging your D-air edgeguard. A TL that knows how to recover, you don't want to challenge his U-air with reckless D-airs. Not a good trade, since it will usually kill you a good deal earlier than your D-air will kill him. Also his projectiles are something you have to kinda think about a bit. Individually none of them are a problem, but they have to be countered differently. Bombs are best caught. His other projectiles if you wish you may simply blast through them with hitboxes. Obviously this also applies somewhat onstage, though you have a Z-air to respect onstage as well. As far as I can tell, the best tactic for stopping TL from recovering safely is invincible ledgedropped aerials, which shouldn't be hard to pull off on him given how slow his Up-B is.

From 0-7 you can definitely D-throw D-smash him, but the combo fails at higher percents, so stick to techchasing him with F-air out of D-throw. At high percents he can be a bit annoying to juggle if he pulls a lot of bombs and isn't stupid about when he throws out his D-air.

If you have balls, I'm pretty sure you can spotdodge his grab after B-airing or N-airing his shield. Obviously don't rely on it, but I am pretty sure it's technically an option.

 

[SpeedyJ]

*post reserved for topic starter*

Please note that a lot of what I say may be incorrect but please realize that there was hardly any input - especially in comparison to the Snake discussion, so I tried filling in the blanks with my own prior knowledge, even though the last time I played Brawl was who knows when and last time I played this match-up was even longer ago. Just politely correct me if you find anything wrong.

Anyone who knows they can do a better job is more than welcome to do so! ^_^

Just note that I don't use smashboards anymore but still respond to PMs. Just wanted to get the last export, long overdue out of the way.

Happy Smashing everybody!

 

[overgamer]

Thank you JMoney, I really appreciate your work for reviving MU threads. Unfortunately I don't have much experience with this MU, so I cannot help you correct things. But keep the spirit! =3

 

[Makke]

....................

 

[UTDZac]

Excellent work. I would recommend removing some of the bolded words/phrases. There are quite a few and it's distracting from what really should be bolded.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Thanks for all the support guys.

And unbolded a lot of stuff Zac, got a bit carried away there.

 

[Splice]

No quotes this time? I remember having a discussion about the Toon Link MU, surely there was something useful?

UTD sum the MU up in one sentence kgo

Good on you for making a contribution to these boards JMoney

 

[SpeedyJ]

Thanks Splice. I really appreciate it. ^_^

I got lazy this time but there weren't nearly as many quotes as the Snake board. I'll have a look later tonight and add the good ones. :D

Edit: I just realized Splice, you main Falco!? *stares at character icon* lol

 

[Splice]

Good Job adding the quotes

I have Falco in my avatar because I main Falco in Melee and I think it looks good the way they face different directions so I have both set to Falco. Melee is the game I care about more now anyway, as I'm getting bored of Brawl and falling out slowly.

The thing is though, everytime I see a new GaW AT or a new video of top GaW mains to watch, or if I just play a bit with a friend and I get good ideas or really smooth control and strings, It makes me want to play Brawl again. I just love Game and Watch lol, better than the rest of the game combined for me xD
So I'll probably always play Brawl if you guys keep pumping out stuff haha
But yeah, my icons will stay Falco because it looks madt.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Where is this extra 5 coming from. Is that Zair? What gives him that slight edge?

It's so even

 

[SpeedyJ]

Where is this extra 5 coming from. Is that Zair? What gives him that slight edge?

It's so even

We lose on the ground
We are outcamped and HAVE to approach
We have a good chance at losing in the air

To be honest, I sometimes wouldn't understand why its so close.

 

[Splice]

Where is this extra 5 coming from. Is that Zair? What gives him that slight edge?

It's so even

Oh you

 

[SFA Smiley]

Whatever then =/

I'm wrong.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Haha all good.

If you guys are keen to start the next discussion, we can sort it out in the other thread.

 

[-Ominous-]

Whatever then =/

I'm wrong.

Nah, I feel that's it's 50/50 too. But I guess it partially depends on the player.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Nah, I feel that's it's 50/50 too. But I guess it partially depends on the player.

Everyone has their own opinion of any match-up. There isn't a 100% surefire exactly correct ratio but this is the most widely agreed upon conclusion by Toon Link and G&W players - as well as most backed up by the science? (<--- can't think of the right word) behind Brawl i.e. range, ground game, etc.

Just because it says we're at a slight disadvantage, you don't have to feel at a disadvantage if you know the match-up well and smash all the Tinks in your area.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Tink's advantage to me is one of those that is apparent on paper but in reality shows something different, thats all

but it's whatever, there's matchups of characters who are actually hard, to discuss anyway