Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Sonic

[---]

General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.

 

[Sensane]

This is possibly one of Mewtwo's worst MUs. Sonic is all about rushing down the opponent and Mewtwo can't really handle it veh well. Plus Sonic can combo light characters better than most people, and Mewtwo is tall, light, and floaty.

However, Mewtwo can stop our spin dashes with shadow ball and his recovery can be pretty unpredictable. I'm not going to score this since this is mostly out of theory and with little experience, but I'm using a Mewtwo secondary, so I feel that I could contribute to this with viable info.

 

[ShadowKing]

These might be mewtwos worst mu but he has some cons
first of all his jab can be held down stopping his side b oh and a fully charge shadow ball as well

his tail can be a use to spacing sonic and his d-tilt can lead into a u-air or f-air

Plus sonic can die to a d-smash(if predicted)

and as Sensane said his up-b is unpredictable

 

[Sensane]

Unpredictable indeed. For some reason if I use it too close to the ledge on battlefield I go in the opposite direction and fall to my death.

 

[cstonic]

I don't think this too bad as long we keep Sonic out of our face

We are pretty decent at stopping Sonic's approaches (dash, mix ups, etc)
Shadow ball is pretty big in this match up, as it stops spin dash (outside of the invincibility during side special's hop)
Here are some notes / things to remember about Sonic (I play both characters, but Sonic is my main)
- Spin dash loses to everything. We can grab him out of it, aerial him out of it, etc

- Punish hard (like every mu) every nair you get, get as much as you can off of it. Same with dtilt, fair, other stuff

- Spin shot doesnt auto snap to ledge, its a free punish if you're close enough

- If the Sonic becomes predictable with their spin dash shield cancels (SDSC) don't be afraid to grab them

- Punish Sonic's landings HARD
Sonic's landings are his biggest weakness, this is something you have to exploit if you expect to win
After Spring, Sonic can only aerial and air dodge, all of his falling aerials are unsafe on shield. Down aerial autocancels from full jump + spring height
If Sonic does a spin dash jump > spring on your shield
Hold shield then chase Sonic in the air

- Mix up your recovery all the time

Overall, the match up needs to be played patient and waiting for Sonic approach us then punishing it
I can see it being 55 45 or 60 40

 

[meleebrawler]

Sonic isn't really a hard rushdown, his moves aren't quite safe enough for that. Aggressive Sonics rely more on mixups than overwhelming the opponent. But whether they be aggressive or campy, Sonics WILL punish carelessly thrown out moves.

As cstonic says you must be very patient to get Sonic without giving him opportunities. Don't chase him much unless he's just used Spring Jump or missed a Homing Attack and suffering landing lag. Mewtwo may be fast but Sonic is still faster.

It's nothing new for either character when it comes to Sonic matchups. Just that Mewtwo can't make quite as many mistakes as Sonic and can't really expect to gimp him easily, so it is a bit uphill for the Pokemon.

 

[Nobie]

Down Smash, Confusion, and Shadow Ball are important in this matchup. None of them are a sure-fire answer, but just having them around affects how Sonic can approach.

Down Smash is transcendent and quick to recover, so it can prevent Sonic from being able to spin through (no clanking). Sonic can try to bait out D-Smash or try to go over it with a spin jump, but it is there to challenge him if he wants to make a beeline for you.

Confusion beats dash shield, and is just a good way to catch limbs, but of course its recovery isn't great so don't spam it.

Have a decently charged Shadow Ball at least whenever you can. It puts a hamper on Sonic's ability to both advance and retreat, and is good for catching his landings.

Two important things to remember:

1) DO NOT GET FOOLED BY HIM SLAMMING INTO THE GROUND. Often when fighting other characters, seeming them hit the ground with an attack is a signal to try and catch their landing. Sonic, if he slams into the ground while spinning, can often attack directly out of it.

2) DON'T ROLL. I don't mean literally never roll, but it's the worst possible option when fighting Sonic. Mewtwo's roll has relatively few invincibility frames, and is really only good for creating sheer distance. Sonic's speed completely renders that function useless. If you try to roll to retreat, Sonic can just catch up. If you try to roll in to exploit an f-smash or something, your invincibility runs out and you get hit by his elbow. DON'T DO IT.

 

[meleebrawler]

Jab with it's trample properties can be a faster way to beat Spin Dash.

 

[Aninymouse]

Jab with it's trample properties can be a faster way to beat Spin Dash.

Does it reach far enough vertically downward to hit him in the ball state? I've never tried this.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

While I was snowed in by a blizzard, I played some Mewtwo v. Sonic. From what I was able to experiment with, M2's N-air takes priority over most of Sonic's aerials, though I could be mistaken. Shadow Ball ruins almost all attempts at Spin Dashes - if Sonic doesn't take damage he winds up clanking with the move anywho.

Though I think the MU is more in Sonic's favor, strong defensive play should be able to even the odds a bit.

 

[meleebrawler]

While I was snowed in by a blizzard, I played some Mewtwo v. Sonic. From what I was able to experiment with, M2's N-air takes priority over most of Sonic's aerials, though I could be mistaken. Shadow Ball ruins almost all attempts at Spin Dashes - if Sonic doesn't take damage he winds up clanking with the move anywho.

Though I think the MU is more in Sonic's favor, strong defensive play should be able to even the odds a bit.

There's no such thing as priority in aerial contests. More likely the Sonic was just timing his aerials wrong.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

There's no such thing as priority in aerial contests. More likely the Sonic was just timing his aerials wrong.

Welp, I tried, aha. Perhaps I'm using 'priority' wrong - often when I followed Sonic into the air, he'd start an aerial attack and I'd respond with N-Air, which almost negated most of his attacks. I'll lab some more in the coming weekend, if you'd like, but as you are a Mewtwo main, I'll take your word for it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Welp, I tried, aha. Perhaps I'm using 'priority' wrong - often when I followed Sonic into the air, he'd start an aerial attack and I'd respond with N-Air, which almost negated most of his attacks. I'll lab some more in the coming weekend, if you'd like, but as you are a Mewtwo main, I'll take your word for it.

Priority tends to be used somewhat liberally in smash discussions, but in truth it only really refers to whether moves clank or go through. Aerials don't clank with anything other than projectiles, so priority doesn't really apply in an air contest. What really matters is speed, or outranging.

 

[Aninymouse]

So, I never did a search for video reference.

I'll edit in some videos as I'm able to find them. I have a feeling that this is a much less common match-up than Mewtwo X Sheik.

Mew² vs Kurry, pre-patch:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_gzjlvCziD8

Mew² vs Tags, pre-patch
http://youtube.com/watch?v=B64jVS4_t-8
Not the best example, considering the Mario/Sonic player rage quits... Mew² gets a sick kill combo, though...

 

[Ax^2]

Watch out for sonic's throw choices at your current percent. At 40~90% sonic can perfect combo you from up throw to spring aerial which can be very dangerous, especially if he can somehow land a back air (its very hard but I've done it before). Down throw can lead to several other down throws if you choose a bad get up option if you miss your tech. Sonic can exploit mewtwo's big size to combo the crap outta him when up in his face. Your best bet it using confusion and shadow ball. You have an advantage in the air since mewtwo's aerials out range sonic or at the very least trade. Punish sonic's aerials before he has time to act again.

Also note that almost all of sonic's viable moves besides spin moves have start up and/or end lag that can be taken advantage of, like back air, nair, fair, up smash and fwd smash AND ESPECIALLY DOWN AIR (punish this with a smash.... please...). Punish with a quick move like a tilt into a combo or a grab.

 

[Aninymouse]

Watch out for sonic's throw choices at your current percent. At 40~90% sonic can perfect combo you from up throw to spring aerial which can be very dangerous, especially if he can somehow land a back air (its very hard but I've done it before). Down throw can lead to several other down throws if you choose a bad get up option if you miss your tech. Sonic can exploit mewtwo's big size to combo the crap outta him when up in his face. Your best bet it using confusion and shadow ball. You have an advantage in the air since mewtwo's aerials out range sonic or at the very least clank. Punish sonic's aerials before he has time to act again.

Also note that almost all of sonic's viable moves besides spin moves have start up and/or end lag that can be taken advantage of, like back air, nair, fair, up smash and fwd smash AND ESPECIALLY DOWN AIR (punish this with a smash.... please...). Punish with a quick move like a tilt into a combo or a grab.

Seems like decent advice, but I'll just point out one thing: when two aerials collide, they never clank; they will always trade.

 

[Ax^2]

Seems like decent advice, but I'll just point out one thing: when two aerials collide, they never clank; they will always trade.

My lack of knowledge of terminology kills me.... *sobs in corner*

But yeah what I meant was they'll at least trade if not outrange.

 

[Rucent]

The Sonic Match Up Thread is currently discussing vs (And )! We would love it if you gave us your input on the match up!

Click here to go to Sonic MU Thread

Thank you! :D

 

[MachoCheeze]

Guys what's the gameplan against increadibly campy, noncommittal Wrath-style Sonic?

I just played one for like an hour and it was hell on earth. I felt literally helpless.