Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Meta Knight

[---]

General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Don't get DA or grabbed at 20% the best advice I can give. Also, learn how to SDI shuttle loop, because that is a thing apparently, ZeRo uses it to survive.

 

[Chiroz]

Don't get DA or grabbed at 20% the best advice I can give. Also, learn how to SDI shuttle loop, because that is a thing apparently, ZeRo uses it to survive.

Where did you see/hear that? I've never seen anyone escape a correctly spaced Shuttle Loop that does not land with the sweetspot.



General MK tips:

Play by the ledge before 50%.

Don't get Grabbed before 30% period. Some MKs actually know how to do the death combo out of a grab.

Don't get Dash Attacked between 30-50%

After 50% you can start playing more effectively.

%s go down if MK has rage on him.



Mewtwo is like the 4th easiest char to land the combo on. We all know this is a bad matchup. MK is small, combos easily, has a 0 to death and is fast and rushdown oriented. All things Mewtwo hates.

I might give a more detailed analysis later on, which is needed as this post doesn't really give any new information. Sorry about that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Where did you see/hear that? I've never seen anyone escape a correctly spaced Shuttle Loop that does not land with the sweetspot.



General MK tips:

Play by the ledge before 50%.

Don't get Grabbed before 30% period. Some MKs actually know how to do the death combo out of a grab.

Don't get Dash Attacked between 30-50%

After 50% you can start playing more effectively.

%s go down if MK has rage on him.



Mewtwo is like the 4th easiest char to land the combo on. We all know this is a bad matchup. MK is small, combos easily, has a 0 to death and is fast and rushdown oriented. All things Mewtwo hates.

I might give a more detailed analysis later on, which is needed as this post doesn't really give any new information. Sorry about that.

I tried to find it but couldn't. He only mentions it once and he has ALOT of interviews... I believe it was Up and In SDI. Sorry I can't help more...

 

[Browny]

Mewtwo is like the 4th easiest char to land the combo on. We all know this is a bad matchup. MK is small, combos easily, has a 0 to death and is fast and rushdown oriented. All things Mewtwo hates.

I might give a more detailed analysis later on, which is needed as this post doesn't really give any new information. Sorry about that.

That's a poor way of looking at it.

Yes, Mewtwo by character size is probably the 4th easiest character to continue the combo on once it begins. But that says nothing about how difficult it is to actually initiate the combo which is actually a really big deal!

With dtilt/jab/phasing/shadowball/landing mixups Mewtwo can play a ridiculously strong keep away game, possibly better than anyone except sheik. MK loves to get the dash attack either from neutral, or when trapping landings. Theres kind of no excuse for getting your landing caught by dash attack as Mewtwo, youve got the mobility, mixups and nair to cover yourself from this and more to the point you can easily just float around to the ledges, you are never forced to land in the centre of the stage.

Getting dash attacked in neutral at low %'s is again, almost entirely Mewtwos fault for not spacing with tilts and shadowball properly.

There is a VERY VERY big distinction to make between how difficult the combo is to start and how easy the character is to finish it off on.

For example, you might say that Olimar is really difficult to do the uair chain on, but he has no mixups on landings and a very punishable neutral game if he tries to stuff an approach.

Metaknight in general has a poor and punishable neutral game, Mewtwo absolutely smacks him in this regard. He can get some obnoxious KO's on Mewtwo and edgeguard fairly well to cover teleport but his 0 (or 30) -death ladder combo should not entirely be a problem because really, it is 100% the mewtwo players fault if they get caught in early %'s in the centre of the stage and get hit by dash attack. Many characters wish they could wall MK out and land as safely as Mewtwo to the point that I would say MK's ladder combo is not overly effective on Mewtwo because of how difficult it is to actually get it started.

 

[Chiroz]

That's a poor way of looking at it.

Yes, Mewtwo by character size is probably the 4th easiest character to continue the combo on once it begins. But that says nothing about how difficult it is to actually initiate the combo which is actually a really big deal!

With dtilt/jab/phasing/shadowball/landing mixups Mewtwo can play a ridiculously strong keep away game, possibly better than anyone except sheik. MK loves to get the dash attack either from neutral, or when trapping landings. Theres kind of no excuse for getting your landing caught by dash attack as Mewtwo, youve got the mobility, mixups and nair to cover yourself from this and more to the point you can easily just float around to the ledges, you are never forced to land in the centre of the stage.

Getting dash attacked in neutral at low %'s is again, almost entirely Mewtwos fault for not spacing with tilts and shadowball properly.

There is a VERY VERY big distinction to make between how difficult the combo is to start and how easy the character is to finish it off on.

For example, you might say that Olimar is really difficult to do the uair chain on, but he has no mixups on landings and a very punishable neutral game if he tries to stuff an approach.

Metaknight in general has a poor and punishable neutral game, Mewtwo absolutely smacks him in this regard. He can get some obnoxious KO's on Mewtwo and edgeguard fairly well to cover teleport but his 0 (or 30) -death ladder combo should not entirely be a problem because really, it is 100% the mewtwo players fault if they get caught in early %'s in the centre of the stage and get hit by dash attack. Many characters wish they could wall MK out and land as safely as Mewtwo to the point that I would say MK's ladder combo is not overly effective on Mewtwo because of how difficult it is to actually get it started.

You are right, my wording was poor. What I meant was: Mewtwo is the 4th easiest char to not drop the combo once it's already started. Since once you're in the combo you're basically praying for MK to drop it.

Size isn't everything, I am basing the number 4 on a friend of mine who is a pro MK PR #1 where he plays and he said Mewtwo is probably the 4th easiest after Rosa, Olimar and someone else I can't remember.

 

[Metros]

We have a MK main here. Not sure if he's maining him anymore considering Bayonetta and Corrin are out. He's currently tbe best in the state and has been for a long time. I'm tempted to say Aus as he won a major, but that's kinda pushing it. Anyway, we have a guy here who struggles constantly to beat him. For the past 5 or so months every tournament has come down to these two playing each other in grand finals and the same story each set, this other guy (currently 2nd best in the state) losing to this guys MK. It's sad to see. Even more so it's the SAME thing each time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhafwHlvzQg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoM2KDSzLyM

I played this guys MK last week or so with Mewtwo. It's no easy task for sure, but surprisingly I won. Even after.... about 6 months of not playing this guy. The 2nd best player in our state hasn't won once vs him in grand finals. Or at least, I have yet to see.

MK in a pain, but Mewtwo can pull it off if you play the match up right.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I see the MK MU a bit differently. I believe that Mewtwo has to play flawless if he wants to be able to win. The uair strings are a legit threat therefore you have to play around that. Even if you get to percentages where they no longer work he can still confirm into deatj combos from DA dtilt and ftilt 1. Fthrow is also a set up. Bair and fair kill power is tremendous ledge trump bair is a nightmare.

Also I believe that playing the ledge only works of you have the lead. It's not a viable strategy is you're losing. The fact that we have to give up stage control in an attempt to avoid Mks BS is huge. Of course this true for almost every character that just shows the threat level of MK. Play tight and play patient otherwise MK is going to have a field day on you.

Stages to avoid I'm nkt really sure maybe t&c because of the low ceiling. CP should probably be FD. It's tough to say because MK is strong on every stage.

 

[Swoops]

I haven't played a MK yet that was proficient enough to land the ladder on me. Usually between the 2f airdodge and aerial speed I get out pretty easy. I've played top players using him as a side character, and intermediate MK mains, so I can't really speak to ladder's effectiveness on us until I play a really good dedicated main yet.

However, outside of that I think we do really well in the match up. His offstage presence can kill us at 70-100 depending on rage, but the threat is limited to where his body is due to stubby range, so I find avoiding those threats pretty easy with M2's movement. Gimping doesn't really come into play much either because of our recovery.

I find if played correctly M2 can pretty much shut a lot of MK's options down in neutral anyways. Obviously if you make a mistake that's a different story, but if played correctly DTilt and SB should effectively shut down pretty much all of MK's approaches and net you good damage in the process. I mean what is MK going to do, SH aerial approach? Jump bait? Tornado or drill? You don't really even need to challenge any of those if you don't feel comfortable with it.

TL;DR Sit back, establish spacing with SB and DTilt. Play patient and punish any bad approaches. Net your damage, uthrow. Make sure to avoid ladder and at the very least mix up DI if you do get caught in it. Obviously the threat of ladder is ever present, but at least it's a jank early kill on a character we do pretty well vs in neutral, unlike Cloud or Corrin :/

 

[Aninymouse]

I can't find any high level video of this match-up.

I don't consider myself a high level player, so I'm hesitant to just go off of my own experience on For Glory without any frame of reference by better players. What few matches I did find online were pretty bad, with Mewtwo's spamming roll left and right and Meta Knight not approaching...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I can't find any high level video of this match-up.

I don't consider myself a high level player, so I'm hesitant to just go off of my own experience on For Glory without any frame of reference by better players. What few matches I did find online were pretty bad, with Mewtwo's spamming roll left and right and Meta Knight not approaching...

Na FG stuff isn't appropriate here. If you had some anther ladder matches or played the MU offline or something. That'd be more appropriate.

 

[Aninymouse]

Na FG stuff isn't appropriate here. If you had some anther ladder matches or played the MU offline or something. That'd be more appropriate.

Right.

There are more Meta Knight and Mewtwo top players now than ever. It won't be long until we see this match-up play out on a grander stage. Once I'm able to analyze video, study DI, combos, traps, etc., I'll have something to add.

 

[Drippy]

Just to address a few things I've read. I'm 99% certain getting the Up Air combo out of grab only works if you don't DI it appropriately and also Battlefield is probably your best stage versus Metaknight. Platforms can **** up the combo + higher ceiling and in general Battlefield is a stage that Mewtwo likes.

 

[Chiroz]

Just to address a few things I've read. I'm 99% certain getting the Up Air combo out of grab only works if you don't DI it appropriately and also Battlefield is probably your best stage versus Metaknight. Platforms can **** up the combo + higher ceiling and in general Battlefield is a stage that Mewtwo likes.

I agree that BF is a very good stage for this matchup.

Grab does not true combo into U-Air but at very low %s it does true combo into Dash Attack.

I have been 0-Deathed by MK by the following:

Grab->Throw->DA->FF B-Air (Didn't tech)->D-Tilt (Jab Lock)->D-Tilt->Dash Attack->U-Air x 4->Up-B

Obviously that is all a true combo that cares not for DI, the only way to avoid it is to tech or to not get grabbed between 0-20%.

As I said: Avoid Grabs and Dash Attacks before 40-50% and you're golden. Also play by the ledge, Mk has 0 followups out of grab at the ledge and if he Dash Attacks you and you DI outwards (away from the stage), MK cannot get an Up-B without SDing.

 

[Drippy]

I agree that BF is a very good stage for this matchup.

Grab does not true combo into U-Air but at very low %s it does true combo into Dash Attack.

I have been 0-Deathed by MK by the following:

Grab->Throw->DA->FF B-Air (Didn't tech)->D-Tilt (Jab Lock)->D-Tilt->Dash Attack->U-Air x 4->Up-B

Obviously that is all a true combo that cares not for DI, the only way to avoid it is to tech or to not get grabbed between 0-20%.

As I said: Avoid Grabs and Dash Attacks before 40-50% and you're golden. Also play by the ledge, Mk has 0 followups out of grab at the ledge and if he Dash Attacks you and you DI outwards (away from the stage), MK cannot get an Up-B without SDing.

EDIT: Weird my post got messed up, wait for edit

I'm aware of that zero-to-death but not sure how it works on Mewtwo. I know different characters he can get out of a B-Throw or D-Throw and also it should be able to be avoided by DI-ing up or away for some characters as well if I recall correctly.

Another thing to add is that the first hit of the FF B-Air is easy to tech but if the MK does it right then the first two hits of B-Air gives a tighter window to tech.

 

[Chiroz]

EDIT: Weird my post got messed up, wait for edit

I'm aware of that zero-to-death but not sure how it works on Mewtwo. I know different characters he can get out of a B-Throw or D-Throw and also it should be able to be avoided by DI-ing up or away for some characters as well if I recall correctly.

Another thing to add is that the first hit of the FF B-Air is easy to tech but if the MK does it right then the first two hits of B-Air gives a tighter window to tech.

The Throw to Dash Attack is a true combo at very low %s, we are too tall to DI away unfortunately. It stops being a true combo really fast though, so we don't have to be afraid of it after we get hit 2 or 3 times.

I know I failed to tech the combo, but it's really hard to tech that.

 

[LRodC]

So post MK nerf... What are everyone's thoughts on the MU now?

 

[Browny]

Don't anyone underestimate just how big the nerf was.

I'd be confident in saying Mewtwo wins now. He outranges, outspeeds, outcamps, outkills and outswags Metaknight. Upb oos or from a dash attack is still a decent kill set up, but Mewtwos neutral is SO MUCH better than MK and has explosive damage output, Metaknight is going to have to deal with the fact he needs to win neutral more often versus a character who comprehensively outranges and outspeeds him.

-edit-

MK boards say Mewtwo wins +1 vs MK now.

 

[Quantumpen]

I think it's even now. Meta Knight still has better frame data and we still have problems with rush down. Give the MK board time to learn how to take advantage of his fair buff and find new combos/mourn the loss of the u-air cheese kill.

The matchup definitely got a lot better for us. That damn u-air kill combo was so easy to do on M2 even scrubby metaknights could pull it off very consistently.

 

[gustavokbsk]

Hello all.
I have a couple of sets of me playing versus a pretty good MK main from my region (Curitiba in Brazil).
I would like you to watch it and provide any feedback you want, I think there were a lot of representations of the classical issues of this match-up for Mewtwo.
Thank you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQcgZegzKwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWGqCNUAoCc