Master Core: The Shadow Fighter?!

[Deleted member]

Master Core, the final boss of Smash 4. Master Hand's "true form". An orb of mystical energy that surrounds itself with a mass of dark particles called the "Swarm" to become different....things.....of all sorts of shapes and sizes. No further introduction is necessary.

Now, I know what you're all thinking. "Golden, have you COMPLETELY lost your mind? You're seriously suggesting Master Core to be a playable fighter?!" Yes, yes I am. And here is why.

For those who are somehow unaware, one of Master Core's forms is "Master Shadow", which is a duplicate of the player character. "But wait, if Master Shadow is only just a copy of a playable fighter, why are you even suggesting this?", you might be asking.

The answer is simple; my idea is a Shadow Fighter.

Master Core would not have its own moveset. Rather, it would become a shadow copy of one of the other playable fighters in the game (excluding Miis) at the start of each match, and respawn as a copy of a different fighter each time it is KO'd.

This idea is somewhat similar in concept to Mokujin from the Tekken series and Charade from the Soul Calibur series, both of which are from Bandai Namco and were the inspiration for this idea.

Moreso Charade than Mokujin, as Charade forms fragments of its body around the eye (i.e. the core) to imitate the build of the fighter it copies.

The main difference between the playable fighter and the Master Core version (at least in the concept I've envisioned) is that Master Core doesn't imitate the fighter's Final Smash. Instead, Master Core has its own Final Smash that's uniform across all the copied forms.

The "Off Waves". Not as potent as the boss version of the attack, but that's because Master Core is holding back to avoid destroying itself this time. :V
After the attack is through, Master Core assumes the shadow form of another random fighter.

This sort of idea I had actually thought about in the past as a concept with the Shadow Bugs in Brawl's Subspace Emissary mode being able to assume the form of a fighter.....

.....but with The Subspace Emissary in general being irrelevant at this point outside some references and some of the enemies in the Smash Run mode and Master Core existing to be able to tie the idea to an actual character rather than a sentient mass of purple....stuff we'll never see again, I figure Master Core would be the better fit (though a purple coloration for the Swarm as a nod to the Shadow Bugs would be possible, I guess).

So what do you guys think? Is it an interesting concept? Are there any ways you can think of to improve on my idea? Discuss.​

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Master Core was one of the major highlights of the mixed bag that was SSB4, so I can easily entertain this idea... Support!

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Of all the crazy ideas people come up with sometimes, this doesn't actually seem that bad.

I support.

 

[Opossum]

Theoretically I wonder if this would have even been possible for the 3DS since, I assume, all character movesets would need to be loaded at once to draw from the pool for the next stock. In a three stock match it isn't as intensive, but higher stock matches or timed matches could lead to technical issues.

At least, if I understand the concept correctly. Definitely a neat idea though! I like it.

 

[ryuu seika]

Personally, while I do see Charade as an excellent thematic analogue to this potential character, I don't find the gameplay possibilities all that enticing if we copy that build.

Coupling that with the technical problems Opossum brings up, I think drawing inspiration from Skullgirls' Double and using a composite moveset (becomes a different character for each move) would be more fitting. Perhaps it could even be customized like an extreme version of the Miis.

 

[Deleted member]

Can't believe I forgot to reply to things.

Theoretically I wonder if this would have even been possible for the 3DS since, I assume, all character movesets would need to be loaded at once to draw from the pool for the next stock. In a three stock match it isn't as intensive, but higher stock matches or timed matches could lead to technical issues.

At least, if I understand the concept correctly. Definitely a neat idea though! I like it.

Yeah, I've reached the conclusion that the idea is pretty much impossible on the 3DS. But this idea wasn't made with the 3DS in mind to begin with since Smash 3DS/Wii U is technically old news.

Though Smash Tour's final battle shows that the Wii U is at the very least capable of something like my Master Core idea for four players, thus the Switch should be able to do it too.
....8 might be a different story, because we literally can't have 8 players with a set of characters to fight with to test.

At the same time, the maximum amount of characters a player could use in the fight is 10, so perhaps a limit may have to be done on how many fighters are loaded per Master Core.

Personally, while I do see Charade as an excellent thematic analogue to this potential character, I don't find the gameplay possibilities all that enticing if we copy that build.

Coupling that with the technical problems Opossum brings up, I think drawing inspiration from Skullgirls' Double and using a composite moveset (becomes a different character for each move) would be more fitting. Perhaps it could even be customized like an extreme version of the Miis.

That would arguably be more labor intensive as that would mean several character models would have to be made in the overall character file just for Master Core to quickly swap between them for a single attack without loading the data from the actual character it is mimicking.
Then there's also the question on what would the default state be and how it would function when it's not mimicking a fighter.

Which honestly defeats the entire purpose of my idea of having an easy addition that doesn't require much work to create and would hardly cut into development time for other characters due the assets being readily available. :/

 

[ryuu seika]

At the same time, the maximum amount of characters a player could use in the fight is 10, so perhaps a limit may have to be done on how many fighters are loaded per Master Core.

Why? 4 players times 10 characters is already 90+% of the roster. Might as well just load the rest too.

 

[Deleted member]

Why? 4 players times 10 characters is already 90+% of the roster. Might as well just load the rest too.

per Master Core.

 

[ryuu seika]

And your point is? When assessing the workload, you have to assume worst case scenario. In this case, 4 Master Core players with no duplicate character loads.

That would arguably be more labor intensive as that would mean several character models would have to be made in the overall character file just for Master Core to quickly swap between them for a single attack without loading the data from the actual character it is mimicking.
Then there's also the question on what would the default state be and how it would function when it's not mimicking a fighter.

Which honestly defeats the entire purpose of my idea of having an easy addition that doesn't require much work to create and would hardly cut into development time for other characters due the assets being readily available. :/

Except the dark characters were literally just retextures, meaning that it wouldn't be new models but model ports from the rest of the cast. Aside from a few specialised animations for movement, it would be all recycled assets.

 

[Deleted member]

And your point is? When assessing the workload, you have to assume worst case scenario. In this case, 4 Master Core players with no duplicate character loads.

Worst case scenario is 8 Master Cores. Duplicates do not matter aside from how quickly the game is able to load a character.
For example, if at least one Master Core is currently Shulk and a KO'd Master Core is becoming Shulk as well, it will be faster than if it were to become Wario while none of the other Master Cores are currently Wario. This is because the data for Shulk is readily available while the game would have to go "fish" for Wario's data.

This is because any character "swapping" involves loading characters through the disc/cartridge as of Brawl. Examples:
-Zelda/Sheik (Brawl)
-Pokémon Trainer
-Samus/Zero Suit Samus (Brawl)
-Bowser's/Wario's/Lucario's (Smash 4)/Little Mac's Final Smash
-Subspace Emissary
-Smash Tour's final battle
-Any other instance where one fighter is swapped with another mid-game.

The problem is not how many different characters have to be loaded at one time, because that's not how it works. The problem comes from having to constantly cycle through them.

So my point is that there is likely a reason why the limit of fighters you can have in Smash Tour is 10 each and any fighters obtained past the 10 replace ones you already have.

Except the dark characters were literally just retextures, meaning that it wouldn't be new models but model ports from the rest of the cast. Aside from a few specialised animations for movement, it would be all recycled assets.

You don't really seem to understand how Master Shadow works in Smash 4, so let me clarify.
Master Shadow literally loads the exact data of the fighter you're using but applies special in-game effects to it.
This is why my idea is what it is; it's loading the data directly from the other fighters and applying special in-game effects to make it the "Master Shadow" version.


Your idea is to make Master Core a character with its own moveset that, like Double, just happens to borrow all its attacks from other characters.
That means Master Core has to have some default state created for whenever it is not attacking.
Copies of models for all the characters that Master Core would amalgamate from would have to be made and altered accordingly to fit for Master Core.
Master Core would have to be programmed to switch between all these different models with different hitboxes and properties that don't really mesh together well, while on the fly. Just for single-use attacks that, if we're still using the Double comparison, would not even necessarily reflect the original attack 1:1.
.....and it would have to be tested and balanced like any other new character would.

Already way too much effort for the idea to really be worth it at that point, but then you add your idea of making Master Core's moves completely customizable like Emerl from Sonic Battle.

Do you really not see the problem?

 

[UserKev]

It is interesting.

I like the debt of the concept into play. I'm imagining it as I type this and its badass. His Final Smash actually being his own is brilliant, to.

 

[ryuu seika]

You don't really seem to understand how Master Shadow works in Smash 4, so let me clarify.
Master Shadow literally loads the exact data of the fighter you're using but applies special in-game effects to it.
This is why my idea is what it is; it's loading the data directly from the other fighters and applying special in-game effects to make it the "Master Shadow" version.

Your idea is to make Master Core a character with its own moveset that, like Double, just happens to borrow all its attacks from other characters.
That means Master Core has to have some default state created for whenever it is not attacking.
Copies of models for all the characters that Master Core would amalgamate from would have to be made and altered accordingly to fit for Master Core.
Master Core would have to be programmed to switch between all these different models with different hitboxes and properties that don't really mesh together well, while on the fly. Just for single-use attacks that, if we're still using the Double comparison, would not even necessarily reflect the original attack 1:1.
.....and it would have to be tested and balanced like any other new character would.

Already way too much effort for the idea to really be worth it at that point, but then you add your idea of making Master Core's moves completely customizable like Emerl from Sonic Battle.

Do you really not see the problem?

So if "Master Shadow" loads a model and adds an effect, why would models need editing to incorporate that effect for a playable Master Core? Porting models takes negligible effort.
Now, of course, we run into issues if the transition is more than just black smoke because then models have to be blended and the whole thing suddenly takes more effort than a regular character but let's take the simple route for the time being.

The "Default State" would take a little more effort but, given that Master Core is just a floating orb with swirling darkness around it, that hardly sounds complicated either and, if Double is anything to go by, the size and strength of this form would be the main balance point.

Customisability might be a bit much to ask but that does not seem so.

 

[Windstar]

These 21 seconds describe my feelings for this.

 

[Deleted member]

So if "Master Shadow" loads a model and adds an effect, why would models need editing to incorporate that effect for a playable Master Core? Porting models takes negligible effort.

But it loads MORE than just the model. It loads the entire character and simply applies the effects for Master Shadow.

This is where there's a huge difference between your idea and mine.
My idea utilizes pre-existing data just like the boss does; the only extra data that has to be made is anything that doesn't apply to the other characters as well as extra effects to correspond with the palette Master Core is using.
Your idea requires the playable Master Core file to be filled with model copies of every single fighter that Master Core takes a move from at the bare minimum. As well as animation files and effect files for the moves. And they have to be adapted specifically to fit Master Core. Literally just going "copy and paste" doesn't cut it.

Now, of course, we run into issues if the transition is more than just black smoke because then models have to be blended and the whole thing suddenly takes more effort than a regular character but let's take the simple route for the time being.

The "Default State" would take a little more effort but, given that Master Core is just a floating orb with swirling darkness around it, that hardly sounds complicated either and, if Double is anything to go by, the size and strength of this form would be the main balance point.

Customisability might be a bit much to ask but that does not seem so.

That's not quite how balance or character design works.

I really suggest you read up on some of the articles in this collection before continuing.
http://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/character-design-101/

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I say, a mimic character is a smashing concept. But when I contemplated the technical issue of character loading...well, y'all know how in Tekken 4 Combot assumes one fighter's move set for the whole match? It would be more practical for Master Core to follow that same behavior, eh wot?

Also, I'd suggest he have a static weight value of 105, regardless of who he imitates.

 

[Some Beedrill]

I think the idea is great! I personally would rather have Sandbag than Master Core in Smash, but I'm not the sort of person making a support thread every week because there is no support thread on a character that they want in Smash.
( I support )

 

[Deleted member]

I say, a mimic character is a smashing concept. But when I contemplated the technical issue of character loading...well, y'all know how in Tekken 4 Combot assumes one fighter's move set for the whole match? It would be more practical for Master Core to follow that same behavior, eh wot?

Also, I'd suggest he have a static weight value of 105, regardless of who he imitates.

While "practical", it also basically means the only real difference between Master Core and the Random button is the texture and the weight of 105, which can drastically change how a character works (as could being larger than the fighter it copied like in the boss fight, which is why I avoided that).

Worst case scenario, I guess Master Core can just simply do what he does in the boss fight and copy one of the fighters in the current match down to whatever palette/costume they're using (with the Master Shadow texture and swarm effects of course) as well as their custom moves and equipment (if applicable). And just switch between any of the other fighters in the match for ease of loading (meaning if there's only one fighter, it's a mirror match).
Though a potential issue comes from when Master Core is the only fighter in the match with that idea. How can Master Core copy a fighter if only another Master Core is present, for example? Should some sort of "saving" feature be used to where the last fighter data used by Master Core is kept in some sort of backlog in case there's a scenario where Master Core is loaded without any legitimate fighter present available to copy?

I think the idea is great! I personally would rather have Sandbag than Master Core in Smash, but I'm not the sort of person making a support thread every week because there is no support thread on a character that they want in Smash.
( I support )

If you want to make a support thread for a character you want when there's no thread for that character yet, go right ahead. Just make sure it follows the guidelines for how a thread is supposed to be structured and that you're willing to put in the effort in making it.

For all you know, that character may never get a thread if you're not the one to make it. I know Master Core wouldn't have. :V

 

[Windstar]

I think the idea is great! I personally would rather have Sandbag than Master Core in Smash, but I'm not the sort of person making a support thread every week because there is no support thread on a character that they want in Smash.
( I support )

Beedrill for Smash 5?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

While "practical", it also basically means the only real difference between Master Core and the Random button is the texture and the weight of 105, which can drastically change how a character works (as could being larger than the fighter it copied like in the boss fight, which is why I avoided that).

Worst case scenario, I guess Master Core can just simply do what he does in the boss fight and copy one of the fighters in the current match down to whatever palette/costume they're using (with the Master Shadow texture and swarm effects of course) as well as their custom moves and equipment (if applicable). And just switch between any of the other fighters in the match for ease of loading (meaning if there's only one fighter, it's a mirror match).
Though a potential issue comes from when Master Core is the only fighter in the match with that idea. How can Master Core copy a fighter if only another Master Core is present, for example? Should some sort of "saving" feature be used to where the last fighter data used by Master Core is kept in some sort of backlog in case there's a scenario where Master Core is loaded without any legitimate fighter present available to copy?



If you want to make a support thread for a character you want when there's no thread for that character yet, go right ahead. Just make sure it follows the guidelines for how a thread is supposed to be structured and that you're willing to put in the effort in making it.

For all you know, that character may never get a thread if you're not the one to make it. I know Master Core wouldn't have. :V

Maybe load Mario automatically if the game comes across an unforseen situation?

 

[Some Beedrill]

Beedrill for Smash 5?

YES

 

[Deleted member]

Please take any talk of characters that don't have to do with Master Core outside of the Master Core thread.

Maybe load Mario automatically if the game comes across an unforseen situation?

I mean more than just unforeseen situations, though.

I mean standard things like Master Core vs. Master Core (x 1-7), or Master Core in Home-Run Contest/Target Smash/etc.

 

[SEGAGameBoy]

I support this!