Master at Arms: Pit and Dark Pit's Side Specials

[EnGarde]

This is a basic listing of general stats and techs for Pit and Dark Pit’s side special moves. All of these work exactly the same for both Pit and Dark Pit. Special thanks to @LoreLes for helping with the recordings. All gfycats were recorded with patch 1.0.6.

1. Frame Data

This is extrapolated from the frame data collected by @bluecrow 's Pit Frame Data Thread and Dark Pit Frame Data Thread and by @Thinkaman 's hitbox and frame data master thread.

Grounded

Note that the arms blink and dim after the super armor wears off.

(unknown substate 0x250 in Thinkaman’s datasheet)
Startup: 16 Frames (Super Armor Active starting frame 11)
Travel with super armor active: 22 Frames
Travel with super armor inactive: 8 Frames
Cool Down: Currently Unknown

Aerial

It is harder to tell with this version, but the arms blink and dim after the super armor wears off here too.

(unknown substate 0x258 in Thinkaman’s datasheet):
Startup: 19 Frames (Super Armor Active starting frame 11)
Travel with super armor active: 19 Frames
Travel with super armor inactive: 8 Frames
Cool Down: Currently Unknown
Landing Lag: Currently Unknown

2. Ledge Snap and Ledge Cancel

When spaced properly, Pit/DP’s side special will auto-snap to the ledge. This does not depend on horizontal distance away from the ledge, only vertical height relative to the ledge. At the highest auto-snap spacing, if your opponent is too close to the edge of the stage, the 2nd hitbox will come out and hit your opponent before you auto-snap to the ledge. Because you auto-snap to the ledge, it is still safe on shield. This is a good way to deter edgeguards, however you also need space the super armor properly against characters with fast disjoint dtilts, like Marth.

If you are slightly too low, you’ll auto-snap to the ledge without having the 2nd hitbox activate. So long as you space the super armor correctly, this is difficult to punish.

If you are too high, however, you will not auto-snap to the ledge, and can be punished by disjointed or fast dtilts. However, this is still risky for many characters, as the 2nd hitbox for Pit/DP’s side special can still activate.

3. Landing Cancel (Gimmick)

This tech is heavily limited because Pit/DP’s side special has 2 layers of endlag, cool down and landing lag. It is possible to cancel the cool down on the 2nd upperdash hitbox by landing, however you’ll still have landing lag. Because of this, it is not safe to hit on shield.

Also, the effectiveness for this is dependent on your OPPONENT’S spacing. Therefore, if your opponent is properly spaced further in on the stage, Pit/DP will shout, signifying that the 2nd hitbox is supposed to activate, but the 2nd hitbox will not come out at all, and will instead be cancelled, leaving you in punishable landing lag.

It is still possible to space slightly lower, so that the cool down of the 2nd hit is not cancelled, thereby hitting the edgeguarding opponent. However, don’t do this at low percents, as many top tier characters like Sheik, Diddy, and Captain Falcon will exit hitstun fast enough to punish you on hit with a fast aerial. This is no longer a problem at higher percents, where your opponent is knocked far enough away to prevent followups. This is not safe on shield, but depending on your spacing, can be difficult to punish if you fade back during the cool down of the 2nd hitbox.

Using Pit/DP’s side special from higher spacings is not recommended unless your opponent is actively pursuing you offstage, as the higher you are, the easier it is to punish this move, and the more endlag you’re likely be trapped in.

4. Slide Onstage

What happens if you use this spacing when your opponent is not in range to activate the 2nd hitbox? Pit/DP will slide onstage, skipping the cool down phase and transitioning directly into landing lag. This is interesting because momentum from the side special attack will be maintained, and Pit will slide onstage. This is can be a good way to quickly regain stage control.

5. Grounded Autocancel

@Kiram made a good video tutorial to explain this tech. This works with Quickdash and Quickshock Arms (Custom #3) with different spacing, but does not work with Interception and Electrocut Arms (Custom #2), as these do not give any forward momentum when used.

6. Slope Dash

wingedkoopa67 created a good video demonstration of this tech. This works with all of the Pit/DP’s custom side specials, but they travel a shorter distance than the default version, with Interception and Electrocut Arms (Custom #2) traveling slightly farther than Quickdash and Quickshock Arms (Custom #3).

A Note on Custom Side Special #3: Quickdash and Quickshock Arms

Spoiler

I also have footage of most of these techs recorded for quickdash/quickshock arm, however, my computer is currently facing technical difficulties, so I haven’t been able to process it for gfycats yet. I should be able to do so in the near future. I’ll update the thread when I can. The raw footage of me derping around with the moves (all 9+ minutes of it lol) is available on Lore's youtube channel in the meantime.

Thanks for reading! Comments and feedback is appreciated.

 

[Dr. Snakes]

Nice little compilation of all things SideB. Didn't know you could sweetspot the ledge with SideB's armor still active. Gonna go practice that now.

Also, thanks for posting the other 2 techs that people have found. Been meaning to rewatch those videos again.

 

[Neo Zero]

Very nicely made. I'll update the directory right away.

Also @ EnGarde would you be ok if I made a redirect link in Dark Pit for this as well?

 

[EnGarde]

Thanks, guys. Glad you liked it.

Very nicely made. I'll update the directory right away.

Also @ EnGarde would you be ok if I made a redirect link in Dark Pit for this as well?

That sounds great.

If I learn anything new, I'll add it in. If there's any previously known tech that I've forgotten, let me know.

 

[EnGarde]

Apologies for the double post, but I've learned something new. :D

I originally hypothesized that landing cancel would only work near the edge, and if your opponent was properly spaced further in on the stage, you'd get landing cancel with no hitbox, which is like, the worst possible case for punishable landing lag.

This is not the case. It looks like the required height for landing cancel is very slightly a hair above the stage, and might not require you to be near the ledge. I'm still labbing it. Once I have a better idea of how it works, I'll edit the OP. It still looks to be punishable on shield, but I can now dream of comboing landing cancel side b into uair or upsmash or some such nonsense. In the meantime, here, have a gfycat. :3

 

[LancerStaff]

Okay, I've found a consistent way to test the ground-cancelled Arm. Should work in SSB3D in theory, but I haven't tried.

Anyway, go to Omega Flat Zone against Bowser (big hitbox). Set the speed to 1/4. Dash forward, jump on the blue line in between the bricks below the G, rock between down-right and down to fastfall on the earliest frame and keep holding right, then Sspecial when Pit's foot is in the ground. If you did it right his foot won't be in the ground when you dash over to Bowser. Too late, and you'll either do a ground attack or an aerial one where the attack is cancelled. You'll know if it's the later if his foot is in the ground in the dash.

This is hard to describe... Ever hear of a phenomena called "sub pixel movement?" In old games such as the NES Metroid or Kid Icarus you can move distances less then a pixel and the game keeps track even though it's not visable. Certain obscure jumps either will or won't work depending on your sub-pixel placement, although certain things such as Metroid's elevators would put you in a certain sub-pixel and then moving in an exact way will get you your jump. It's likely a similar thing is happening here.

So maybe we can't get this off of certain jumps. We need to deduce what ways to set up a GCA attack. Thankfully just landing is enough to reset our "sub-pixel" to perform my set up.

But now there's a few snags... My set up is in all likelyhood two frame-perfect tricks in one. The fastfall (which I believe cannot be buffered) and the attack (which could actually be buffered, if not here then in another set up). Actually, I'm not even sure I'm fastfalling on the first possible frame when I get it which complicates things even more. And the other... Adjusting the speed rather likely alters the "sub-pixels" we can use imputs on, so any set ups we discover in 1/4 may or may not work in 1/1.

We just have to try things. Jumping then double jumping, jumping off of ledges, falling off ledges then double jumping, and toss in fastfalls in those too. And holding down will prevent you from grabbing the ledge, even during auto-snap specials. This is yet another potential way to set up the GCA, since you'll "float" over the ledge if you're at the right hight. Should you get this in a match save the freaking replay. If you managed it without enemy interaction then you just discovered a usable set up.

Personally, unless we find a crazy-reliable set up (such as jump > buffered airdodge > buffered double jump > well-timed Arm) I'm not going to continue testing this. It just won't be worth it...

 

[EnGarde]

I don't have time right now for a long reply, and I only glanced at your post (I'll give a better reply this evening), but landing cancel upperdash is easy to do consistently without being on 1/4th speed just by regular falling, I can do that part very consistently (I'll produce video proof this evening when I have time, if necessary). Though JCLC is difficult right now to the point I'm not consistent on it, I believe that it's fully possible to be able to master the technique and use it on demand in real match situations. Regular landing cancel It's about as difficult as learning how to space a Marth tipper fsmash: once you know the spacing, you just know the spacing. JCLC will probably be more difficult to master, but not impossible (I'm not giving up on it yet).

I don't really think the partial knowledge I have collected currently is ready to be released yet (still in the early testing stages; I'm currently switching from my old wii u pro controller to gcc controller, so that's why my consistency is currently quite low), but considering people are drawing unexpected conclusions, I'd rather make sure the correct (as far as I know it lol) info is out there. :-/

(edited for clarity)

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, this is the conclusion I've come to. It's just feels impossible depending on how you jump. Hm... Maybe it's the stage effecting things. I don't know. Maybe I was subconsciously frustrated... But to me it feels like something is up when I can't seem to find the right frame at 1/4 speed.

Even if you've found a simple way to perform this technique, searching for other ways to do it would both give us more ways to use and experiment with it.

 

[LancerStaff]

So, aerial Arm attacks off the ground aren't much safer then grounded. Lemme explain...

I was experimenting the other day, and remembered that Dair ACs early on and you can act out of an aerial Arm hit as long as you don't aim for a higher platform. Put 'em together and you get a significant lag reduction right? Nope. It's actually impossible. At first I thought it was RCO lag or something, but a programming error like that usually will give you phantom lag if you grab the ledge and make a landing later. What's apparently happening is that something was specifically put in to give us the same lag on a landing no matter how many or which actions we take. There's workarounds though.

Offstage, aim for the ledge after a hit. Easy. Onstage, do a slide cancel. You have more then enough horizontal movement to get it on either side without jumps. Not sure if it actually helps in the long run lag wise, but at least you have a chance to get away.

 

[LancerStaff]

Discovered a new technique. Yaknow how if you press backwards right after a special you'll turn around and use it? This combined with the step back from a grounded Sspecial means you'll dash further. About two Pits further to be exact.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ EnGarde Still there? Got survivable offstage Arm distances for most stages.

Spoiler

Note that ledge level means your feet are above the main platform, and edge level means you're where you'd be after dropping off a ledge hang and immediately using your Fspecial. No omegas yet, and the transformations are incomplete, but there's more then enough to post.

Mushroom Kingdom U: Acorn Plains (Well above the leftmost bush), Rock Candy Mountain (Highest maximum tilt), Merigue Clouds (Less then the plains bush), Castle (Upper platform at max height)

Wrecking Crew (Completely above a bomb, not the fuse)

Skyloft: Default platform and alterations (Just above the main platform)

Ledge level: Luigi's Mansion, Delfino (Default platform and alterations), Gamer, Town and City, Smashville, Duck Hunt, Windy Hill Zone (Right side), Suzaku Castle

Just below ledge level: Final Destination, Jungle Hijinks (Left ledge and right platform in the foreground, well above the floor of the hidden bonus room in the background.), Yoshi's Island (Don't aim away from the stage when not on it, you'll fly off the side), Kalos Pokemon League, Wily Castle

Just above edge level: Big Battlefield, Lylat (Default tilt, can go off the side with lower tilts), Pokemon Stadium 2 (During flying transformation you can survive as long as you're above the bottom of the screen), Skyworld (Left side), Peach's Castle 64 (Moving platform)

Edge level: Battlefield, Mario Kart 8 (Default platform), Halbird (Just above edge level on the flying platform), Castle Siege (Left side on top is ledge level, can't die off of tilting platform)

Below edge level: Temple 64 (Slightly lower), Miiverse (Head above bottom blocks of the main platform), Garden of Hope (On the ledge of one tin lift down, left side), Pilotwings (Head above back wing on red in fixed camera), Wuhu Island (head above the bottom of default platform, for every flying platform), Dreamland 64 (Just below the stage is recoverable), Kongo 64 (Face level with the bottom of cannon, requires cannon to survive. Feet level with the top can reach the ledge with jumps and Uspecial.)