Marth's tools for moving forward and reliably getting stage control?

[L33thal]

I feel like Marth doesn't have really solid tools for moving forward and claiming stage position, compared to the other top tiers.

D-tilt is good for poking on the ground, but your opponent can place good aerials to counter that. The hitboxes of aerials also outrange run up grab or dash dance grab.

Nair/double fair in place put out hitboxes but you usually have to deal with your opponent rushing you after you do them and Marths tend to dash back after doing those. Same goes for retreating double fair.

It feels like the only reliable tools besides d-tilt are to do late fair into dash forward (which imo is easy to mis-space), weird rising fairs (rewardable if you place them well and if your opponent can't CC at higher percents), or to dash past/under your opponent. Otherwise, it seems like Marth has to rely a lot on baiting and making use of his long dash and grab range to capitalize on when your opponent moves forward when you move backwards. But if your opponent's character has really good stage control, then you find yourself with less and less room to run.

This might seem really obvious or even completely wrong and dumb but any thoughts on this?

 

[ridemyboat]

It's hard, but you need to try not to whiff. Use dtilt if you think they'll try to move forward without shielding, grabs for when you think they'll shield, and aerials to stuff them when you think they'll jump. If you predict they'll wavedash back, you can beat it by walking forward.

 

[FrisoDubach]

"D-tilt is good for poking on the ground, but your opponent can place good aerials to counter that"

if you see them reacting with aerials you counter with fair, as soon as they are in the air you fair

 

[Malcolm Pickering]

i empathize with this post

 

[A_Reverie]

Saw this late. I've been doing some brainstorming and practice on this very topic lately...

Marth is actually amazing at taking control of the stage. It may be a bit more nuanced that for a character like Fox, but that's Marth for ya. Regarding tools, Marth has threat from his movement, but to make that movement a threat you have to know how to do the following:

• Cover the ground with D-tilt -- D-tilt is amazing. You need to show your opponent you know how to hit with it, that way they will respect your ground coverage. You can crouch into one out of a run, or pop one out from a wavedash. It's interruptible on frame 20, so tighten up the timing for acting out of it as much as you can. Make sure you develop some ideas for what to do if it connects, both with center hits and tippers. Common follow-ups are grab to secure a punish, or dash back to resume controlling a portion of the stage.

• Respond to your opponent's aerials -- With good ground coverage, one of the things your foe will be tempted to do is jump to try and push through you with an aerial attack. There are several ways to defeat aerials. One option that a lot of players neglect is crouch cancel. You should be holding down during situations where you think you might be punished for whiffing before you get a chance to shield or dash away from the threat. Characters like Fox will want to jump in with their N-air in order to bite you for spacing too close, or whiffing a D-tilt. You can beat this simply by crouching after certain actions, like after a D-tilt, after coming down with your own aerial, or even out of a run or wavedash. This can lead to grabs, D-tilt, F-smash, or cross-ups that put your opponent out of position. Other ways Marth can beat aerials include walling them out with F-air, making it whiff by moving away and whiff punishing, or simply pressing into them with shield or grab. Keep in mind that moveing backward will give up stage, but you can earn a big reward by making a cornered enemy overextend into space they don't control.

• Jump carefully -- Jumping with Marth compared to other characters is sort of slow. It's risky to jump when fighting characters that can cover the ground quickly and get underneath you (Fox, Sheik) or against characters with projectiles that can stun you in mid-air (Falco, Sheik, and Peach to a lesser extent.) Put as much time as you can into learning when it's safe to jump. A bad jump can cost you stage control quickly. A skilled opponent can bust through you in the air if you're not coming down with F-air/N-air at the right time. To be more specific, jumping forward into another players' space is risky. You want to be descending with fast fall by the time you interact with them. You can jump back or in place with double F-air to block aerial attempts, but this is more reactive and doesn't proactively push or gain you stage. Jumping forward with double F-air should be done sparingly, as whiffing or spacing poorly can get you punished. Aim your jump so that you're coming down into their space with your hitbox.

• Know what/where the reward is -- Stage control positions you to earn reward. Your gameplan should involve knowing what sort of punish you're working toward and when. Forcing your opponent into controlling less stage takes away certain options that they could have, and reward you by putting you in the place to respond to their limited capability. Much of this is matchup specfic. Grabs are a common high reward outcome, as they can lead to big death combos or edge guard situations. You can even get big rewards from pushing them so much that they can D-tilted offstage, or by their attempt to push through you getting stuffed out by a combo starter. Keep in mind that after you earn your reward, you need to know when to withdraw momentarily to retain your stage control. A big punish is meaningless if you fall victim to a reversal and end up getting shined off stage, for example. On the flipside, you can risk losing stage by retreating as bait for a grab, which can turn into your own reversal with D-throw.

Practicing Stage Control in 20XX 4.05

1. Practice standard movement regularly. Having good command of your movement is the most important part of all this. Make sure your dash dance is fluid, wavedash timing is tight, and be sure you can execute common options consistently, like D-tilt out of wavedashes/run. Shield stop aerials.
   
   
2. Place an idle, invincible CPU (X + D-pad Up) in a certain area of the stage (left, center, right, corner) and practice putting out threats out of your dash dance that connect. SHFFL F-air/N-air, various D-tilt options (wavedash forward, in place, backward, after an aerial.) Try and get a feel for the rate at which you can threaten different spaces from different positions. There are a huge amount of instances to practice here so put some time into it every day.
   
   
3. Vs. a 20XX Fox AI, imagine a line going straight up from each character. Play as you would normally, but try and imagine keeping these lines from crossing while putting as much stage behind yours as you can. Incorporate the techniques you practiced in #2 and see which situations each option gains you stage. The new 20XX AI is pretty good for practicing stage control, since their TAS-esque movement really challenges you to push forward.
   
   
4. Filter out options that you overuse. Be careful not to use the same thing repeatedly. What may work on a CPU may not work on a human if you're predictable. Practice for a while without using grabs, focusing on using pokes or crossups to net you stage control. Practice some without using SHFFLd aerials. A varied toolkit will go a long way in keeping your opponent on their toes.
   
   
5. Challenge yourself to keep center stage for as long as you can. Keep a count of how many times you prevent the AI from pushing through in a row until you fail, then start again. You can use save states (Right on D-pad to save, Left on D-pad to load) to reset positions. I like to use Training Mode here to toggle Attack/Stand when I'm ready to restart this drill.

Okay so this ended up being a lot longer than I thought, but I hope this helps and that I explained things well enough.

 

[JackSSB]

If they counter your d tilt with an aeiral, you can CC it and short hop nair or fair depending on the opponents percent and/or character. Or if you are not in CC percent you could opt to nair/fair OOS. As a third option you could spot dodge after the d tilt, but that is easily punishable and not very optimal.

 

[Tablesalt]

A really good thing to do is dash dance and wait for your opponent to do stupid, unsafe **** and then just run past and possibly grab, d-tilt, pivot f smash, etc.