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Marth's Angled Up-B

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Sycorax, Aug 6, 2015.

  1. Sycorax

    Sycorax
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    Smash Ace

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    Introduction:
    Marth's up-b can be angled, not just horizontally like we all know, but also vertically. The general method for controlling it is described here. Doctor Mario and Mario can also similarly control the angle of their up-b as described by Schmooblidon here. It turns out that Marth's control of the angle of his up-b is slightly different. Here are the specifics I discovered while playing with it in Magus's physics mod.

    Whether Marth does a regular or reverse dolphin slash is decided by the position of the analog stick on frame 5 of his up-b. The angling of his up-b is decided by some combination of the positions of the analog stick on the frames before that. It does not act like Doc's or Mario's up-b, which depend on the position of the analog stick on a certain frame (as described in Schmooblidon's post.)

    Methods:
    To do my tests, I recorded the X-Y position of Marth on frame 22 of his up-b from the ground with various analog inputs before frame 5. The directions North, West, East, NW, WNW, and NNW were held on frames 1 through 4 (with Marth facing right, i.e. east). On frame 5, the stick was returned to neutral position. WNW is as close to 17 degrees above horizontal as I could get on a controller. NNW is as close to 17 degrees to the left of up that I could get. I did not test aerial up-b because I do not know a way to get a consistent aerial location to measure positions from. I chose frame 22 because that is the frame before which Marth will grab the ledge from his up-b (usually).

    Results:
    +-----+----------+----------+
    | ... | X(22) .. | Y(22) .. |
    +-----+----------+----------+
    | . N | 10.40299 | 47.22958 |
    | . W | 14.98440 | 46.84405 |
    | . E | 26.12216 | 41.91854 |
    | .NW | 09.66135 | 47.77207 |
    | WNW | 12.32334 | 47.48393 |
    | NNW | 09.46704 | 47.76539 |
    +-----+----------+----------+


    Discussion:
    The farthest upward distance was achieved by holding the stick up and back before frame 5. Holding all the way back actually increased horizontal distance and lowered vertical distance covered. Holding WNW or NNW seemed to only achieve fractional results of holding up and back. Mixing directions, for example holding WNW for a frame or two then moving to NNW for the subsequent frames, also gave fractional results. It seemed to be more effective to hold one direction for one or all of the frames before frame 5.

    Let it be noted that the height gained by this technique is only about .54 Mm. That is about the width of Marth's sword. It's about one third of the distance Marth slides when he pivots. Because of this, I do not think the technique is worth learning. The distance is so small to rarely be useful, and one risks doing a reverse up-b.

    Another interesting phenomenon is that when Marth angles his up-b regularly, he grabs the ledge after frame 22. If he angles it horizontally, he can grab the ledge 1 frame sooner, that is, after frame 21. If he angles his up-b upwards with the technique described here, he grabs the ledge one frame later, after frame 23. The difference in height between frame 22 and 23 of the NW angled up-b is less than one hundredth of a Mm.

    One final thing to note: a fully side angled up-b increases the horizontal distance covered by a factor of 2.5.
     
    #1 Sycorax, Aug 6, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  2. Wafflesaurus

    Wafflesaurus
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    Does the extra frame give Marth extra air time, meaning it could help him stay in the air longer, therefore making roll from the ledge not as effective? Or does he start falling at the same time he normally does but isn't able to grab the ledge until later?
    I mean, it still wouldn't make much of a difference but it'd be something.
     
  3. Sycorax

    Sycorax
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    Smash Ace

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    I did a janky test that may or may not be exact, but my conclusion is that the extended up-b would keep you in the air for one frame longer regardless of whether you end with the grabbox covering the ledge or do the up-b high then fall into the ledge. Even though the test wasn't thorough, I trust the result.
     
    Wafflesaurus likes this.
  4. FE_Hector

    FE_Hector
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    This is pretty interesting info for the grounded Dolphin Slash, but... @Kadano have you done any research into directional alterations on the aerial Dolphin Slash? I feel like the input would have a bigger difference in the air, but I don't know for sure.
     
  5. Kadano

    Kadano
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    Magical Express

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    @#SplitsOnTrees did you record the X/Y values for an unangled up-B as well? Would be interesting to compare in the table.

    @ajp_anton has created two diagrams on up-Bs. Iirc he did that by writing a script that automatically did all angles in Dolphin, saved as screenshots and analyzed the positions from that with some of his wizardry. I think this was the Marth one:
    He also has this one, which I think is for the Marios:
    But I don’t really understand them. When the stick is at neutral, Marth doesn’t go straight up after all, but in the diagram the default slope is exactly between forward and backward (even though I’d expect it to be slightly more upward / forward).
     
    #5 Kadano, Aug 7, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  6. FE_Hector

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    I think I might sorta understand them. If we let 100 represent full right on the control stick and -100 be full left it makes some sense, but it doesn't look like the graph accounts for how high Marth goes overall, just sorta tells you the deltaX has no change if the stick is pressed less than 40% of the way or more than 80%, and has a linear increase in between those two spots...? The graphs seem vague
     
    Sycorax likes this.
  7. Sycorax

    Sycorax
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    @Kadano , I didn't record the control stick inputs :( My methods were a little imprecise because I just use Magus's mod on a Wii with a CRT. I know I can read the analog coordinates in Magus's mod, but each trial is slightly different and it's hard to be sure exactly where I'm holding the stick when I advance the frame.

    I think @FE_Hector's interpretation is correct. The graph graphs horizontal direction of the analog stick against horizontal movement of Marth's/Mario's up-b.
     
  8. Kadano

    Kadano
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    Magical Express

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    You can use Prv Directi to see the value you input on the last frame.
     

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