Marth vs. Falcon

[FrankDaTank]

Like many other Marths here, I STRUGGLE hard with this matchup, it seems. I can get the punishes, throw tech chases, and combo Falcon to really good percents (mid-high 80s) but I honestly find it extremely hard because of how ridiculously Falcon just auto combos Marth off of grabs to death because of the damn knee.

Also, neutral air to grab ****s me up so hard because I get absolutely destroyed when Falcon grabs me. Good lord, it sucks when I get grabbed.

As an example, I was playing with a friend earlier who is a Falcon main. I up throw tipper him at about 64%. He DIs it properly and starts coming back to the stage. He Up-B's really high and I keep hitting him away with non tippered forward smashes, but he messes up my timing with a fastfall, grabs ledge, ledge stalls, hits me with an up air, gets a tech chase off of it, grabs me, down throws me, I miss the DI ever so slightly, and get kneed and die at 94% or so.

UGHHHHH.

That is beyond frustrating for me because I can destroy Falcon to dumb percents but can't get the KO or edgeguard and then I miss the DI on one up air or down throw or up throw and get absolutely destroyed for it.

Also, Falcon's up air to knee seems so guaranteed that there's nothing I can do about it. How do I DI the up airs?

This matchup is just killing me. I don't get why I have so much trouble with Falcon, even if I play Sheik. Maybe it's just because my friend knows how I play and stuff, but just playing against Falcon seems so much harder than it should be, whether I play Marth or Sheik. He's like my Achilles Heel or something.

pls halp

 

[AirFair]

You need to learn how to sdi nair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO7YD9KqNhY

Besides that, you need better positioning when covering the ledge. If he's going to recover high, you can often wd back and catch it with fair. If he is high enough that he can reach the stage above you, dash back and bair/uair. If he tries to fall to the ledge then you can use dtilt

DI Falcon's aerials away, because his combos on Marth are very bad and will usually end in a kill if you don't.

Non specific tips:
1. Do not commit so much (general, but very true against Falcon) You don't need to swing to see how he will approach you, since he does not have many tools in that regard. Dashdance well here.
2. Jump only when he jumps or in the corner when spacing a nair or when edgeguarding of course. This is because Falcon will usually beat you in the air, unless you put him there.
3. If he's getting too comfortable with dashdancing after you change spacing, use dtilt to make him do things. Dtilt is a great poke that gives you information on what they might do after the poke, and is pretty good on shield too.

 

[ridemyboat]

Are falcon's down throw knees and up throw knee's as free as they look? Bladewise made a video about how peach can airdodge out. What percents can marth do the same, if at all?

For DI on falcon's upair, I try to DI down and away, and SDI down. I think it helps because it puts you lower and mixes up your DI.

You can crouch cancel falcon's second hit of the nair if your percent is less than or equal to 25% with only ASDI down, and if you're really crouching if your percentage is less than or equal to 84%. These percentages are for before the hit. From here, it's usually best to grab because it's guaranteed if you don't mess up.

For edgeguarding, watch how dart does it. He likes to do a late fair on falcon to catch the up b, and then follow it up with an fsmash. It's safer, does a lot more damage, unstales your attacks, and gets falcon further away.

Marth can gimp falcon really easy. You can do downthrow, wavedash back off the ledge and fair him if he's going for double jump sweetspots. There's a lot of discussion on Marth's down throw gimps elsewhere. I've seen arguments from people saying that you shouldn't do it because it's a 50 / 50 or whatever, but it doesn't matter if it's a 50 / 50 because it puts fear into your opponent. You can get them to stop sweet spotting, which is falcon's best option at the ledge.

To follow up on airfair's tip 3, work very hard to not be predictable with dtilt. Falcon makes one read at 50 percent or so and gets a stomp, then knees you and thinks he's good because you called his spacing wrong because he expected your dtilt, and then you die.

 

[FrankDaTank]

You need to learn how to sdi nair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO7YD9KqNhY

Besides that, you need better positioning when covering the ledge. If he's going to recover high, you can often wd back and catch it with fair. If he is high enough that he can reach the stage above you, dash back and bair/uair. If he tries to fall to the ledge then you can use dtilt

DI Falcon's aerials away, because his combos on Marth are very bad and will usually end in a kill if you don't.

Non specific tips:
1. Do not commit so much (general, but very true against Falcon) You don't need to swing to see how he will approach you, since he does not have many tools in that regard. Dashdance well here.
2. Jump only when he jumps or in the corner when spacing a nair or when edgeguarding of course. This is because Falcon will usually beat you in the air, unless you put him there.
3. If he's getting too comfortable with dashdancing after you change spacing, use dtilt to make him do things. Dtilt is a great poke that gives you information on what they might do after the poke, and is pretty good on shield too.

I know how to SDI, it's just really hard to do because I basically have to react to Falcon's nair and I have to get that idea into my head that I have to Smash DI it. It's hard for me, I guess.

One of my biggest problems is Falcon recovering. Because he's so heavy, he can often get back onstage just by using Up B and then going as far into the stage as possible, and on some stages just by landing on the top platform. Then I can only get something like an up or back air in and he takes like 15 percent and is on the ground again. What good is that to me? I can't seem to keep him offstage at low percents or even at higher percents sometimes because of Marth syndrome not letting me get a tipper or something else really strong in.

Also, I forgot to mention this, but what do I do about Falcon's Raptor Boost? My friend always uses it right when I'm jumping or something and catches me with it to get a free combo in and it bugs me so much to get hit by it.

 

[FrankDaTank]

Are falcon's down throw knees and up throw knee's as free as they look? Bladewise made a video about how peach can airdodge out. What percents can marth do the same, if at all?

For DI on falcon's upair, I try to DI down and away, and SDI down. I think it helps because it puts you lower and mixes up your DI.

You can crouch cancel falcon's second hit of the nair if your percent is less than or equal to 25% with only ASDI down, and if you're really crouching if your percentage is less than or equal to 84%. These percentages are for before the hit. From here, it's usually best to grab because it's guaranteed if you don't mess up.

For edgeguarding, watch how dart does it. He likes to do a late fair on falcon to catch the up b, and then follow it up with an fsmash. It's safer, does a lot more damage, unstales your attacks, and gets falcon further away.

Marth can gimp falcon really easy. You can do downthrow, wavedash back off the ledge and fair him if he's going for double jump sweetspots. There's a lot of discussion on Marth's down throw gimps elsewhere. I've seen arguments from people saying that you shouldn't do it because it's a 50 / 50 or whatever, but it doesn't matter if it's a 50 / 50 because it puts fear into your opponent. You can get them to stop sweet spotting, which is falcon's best option at the ledge.

To follow up on airfair's tip 3, work very hard to not be predictable with dtilt. Falcon makes one read at 50 percent or so and gets a stomp, then knees you and thinks he's good because you called his spacing wrong because he expected your dtilt, and then you die.

As far as I know, up throw knee is free no matter the DI around 90%. Same for Sheik, it seems.

Down throw doesn't combo into knee if properly Di'd down and away, but it's hard to react to or predict it. So it's not free, but its hard to get out of it.

I guess I need to stay grounded more, because I find myself getting ****ed over by nair so much against Falcon;s I hate it with a passion. That stupid nair is the bane of my existence against Falcon.

The down throw thing is something I've tried, and it works sometimes, but my friend sometimes tries hitting me with an up air or knee if I toss him off at low percents. He's also started sweetspotting extremely well with Falcon, so it makes it hard for me to hit him with an attack while he's recovering. Grabbing edge doesn't do much for me because all it does it force him onstage and then what? I can't really do anything except down throw him off again or something. can I?

 

[ridemyboat]

As far as I know, up throw knee is free no matter the DI around 90%. Same for Sheik, it seems.

Down throw doesn't combo into knee if properly Di'd down and away, but it's hard to react to or predict it. So it's not free, but its hard to get out of it.

I guess I need to stay grounded more, because I find myself getting ****ed over by nair so much against Falcon;s I hate it with a passion. That stupid nair is the bane of my existence against Falcon.

The down throw thing is something I've tried, and it works sometimes, but my friend sometimes tries hitting me with an up air or knee if I toss him off at low percents. He's also started sweetspotting extremely well with Falcon, so it makes it hard for me to hit him with an attack while he's recovering. Grabbing edge doesn't do much for me because all it does it force him onstage and then what? I can't really do anything except down throw him off again or something. can I?

You can use counter if he tries to hit you, it's really funny.

 

[FrankDaTank]

You can use counter if he tries to hit you, it's really funny.

Yeah, but the problem is that if he decides to just go to the ledge instead, I end up eating a knee or something which sucks :/

 

[-ACE-]

Only the top of Falcons uair combos into knee, but you can often SDI out of that combo by slamming away when he hits you. The front part of the uair is easier to DI, even up and away DI can work.

Abuse your fair but don't spam it. Whenever you can, use tipper uair to start a juggle combo, where you can grab, or use SHFFL non-tipper uairs to juggle.

To end the juggle just use non-tipper fair to carry him offstage. You can fair into fsmash on a platform, Ken combo, fair into side-b, or keep fairing.

 

[Signia]

I guess I need to stay grounded more, because I find myself getting ****ed over by nair so much against Falcon;s I hate it with a passion. That stupid nair is the bane of my existence against Falcon.

The down throw thing is something I've tried, and it works sometimes, but my friend sometimes tries hitting me with an up air or knee if I toss him off at low percents. He's also started sweetspotting extremely well with Falcon, so it makes it hard for me to hit him with an attack while he's recovering. Grabbing edge doesn't do much for me because all it does it force him onstage and then what? I can't really do anything except down throw him off again or something. can I?

Against nair, a big improvement in that matchup for me was to recognize where Falcon's dash SH nair covers. He can reach very far away from where he jumps so dashing away from it and whiff punishing probably won't work. However, Marth can slip under a long range nair he dashes toward him so that the character overlap near the apex of Falcon's SH. The spacing you need to be at to do this is also a spacing where you won't be able to run away from nair. So, run toward the nair to cross under and don't forget to quickly dash back and get the grab punish. It's actually very difficult for Falcon to hit you if you dash dance around the border where his momentum-SH covers and where his shield-stop SH covers.

Also, you can crouch cancel his nair if you're not busy dash dancing around. If you're in a bad position where you can't avoid a nair, Falcon will probably want to nair... that's when you CC it and grab. Do note: when CC grabbing you have to get out of crouch first and the easiest way to do this is to shield and press to grab.

Now for dthrowing Falcon off the ledge. If the opponent predictably double jumps and hits you, down-B counter them and they will just die due to the high base knockback and the lack of a jump. This is risky, though, and I believe the standard post dthrow strategy is to mixup between two options:

1. WD back and whiff punish them if they try to double jump aerial you or air dodge, or

2. run off and fair them if they try to double jump to the ledge.