Marth vs. Falco...I just can't win.

[FrankDaTank]

I realize that has been asked 1001 times on here but in all seriousness, I just feel lost as to what to do against Falco. I get stuck in my shield because of his dumb lazors which I know is an absolutely horrible thing in any matchup, but I really just can't powershield them, maybe because of a lack of practice or something.

In addition to this, everything else I've learned in playing against Falco doesn't seem to work. Dash attacking gets shielded or whiffed and then I get shined or down aired, full hopping ends up with me in a bad position because I'm Marth and I just get down aired or neutral aired or something else, and even when he lasers right in my face and I try to forward air him out of shield, nine times out of ten it just ends up trading with whatever move they decided to toss out. Maybe I'm just not attacking him early enough?

It seems like even when I try my best to Smash DI or even just DI his shine, I always eat 40 or more percent from it, which is very, very frustrating, especially against laser happy Falcos because I just feel like I can barely do anything. It really feels like I just have to keep grabbing him which doesn't always work because they'll start spot dodging or something/

There's this one Falco in particular I play who really just shoots lasers at you and forces an approach or until he feels like approaching with a neutral air or shine or whatever, and when he gets a stock or even a percent lead, he will happily just sit on the top platform and wait for me to come up at which point I'm already in a bad position because I have to jump up at him to even try to hit him, which is made worse by the fact that it's Falco's down air. He particularly enjoys doing this on Dreamland.

I just need some serious guidance here. Do I just have horrible timing with what's supposed to work against Falco? I'm really starting to think I may just suck horribly against him, which is pretty demoralizing since so many people play him.

 

[Kopaka]

Grabbing, dash attacking, full hopping, Smash DI, power shielding are all ways you can beat Falco, but you listed them as ways you're losing the matchup. Look at all those options and start *THINKING* about why they didn't work. There are tons of factors you're not seeing yet. Your grab was spot dodged? Ok, did you just run in and grab out of neutral? Your dash attack was shielded...Ok, he was obviously expecting it so don't be as predictable. Got hit by a shine, relax it's not the end of the world because chances are you're playing against a Falco that won't end your stock because of it. He sits on the top platform...OK, wait for him to come down and put yourself in a position that can threaten him. Etc.

Chances are you don't have "terrible timing". Honestly it has nothing to do with that. There are clear tools that your character *can* use against Falco, you just need to understand what tool is appropriate for what situation.

Here's something to stop demoralizing you. Every single time you play a Falco, get excited about it. Because every single time you play a Falco, that's your chance to learn. Don't go in thinking "sigh...I just suck horribly against this character...time to lose again...ugh nothing I do is working..."

and finally, I used to be someone who had very similar problems. There was a time where I said out loud after losing to someone's Falco.."See? Everyone can beat me with Falco." I've been there. Now it's one of my favorite matchups! You can do it too. Just keep playing.

 

[A_Reverie]

Falco is such a jarring matchup for Marth because he can stagger your movement more effectively than any other with his lasers.

Think about how you play Marth in any other matchup. You're probably used to dash dancing and moving rather freely, but when Falco's your foe, you end up getting poked with laser beams every second. This is one of Falco's biggest strengths, one you have to respect and work around. It's true for any character going up against Falco.

Falco's laser serve a distinct purpose. They are his way of exerting control on your movement from afar and at a constant rate, forcing you to play by his rules in the neutral game. As a result you end up behaving differently versus Falco. Here are some tips I try to keep in mind when I play against him:

Face Forward
Face toward them as often as possible. This is more of a general rule, but fighting Falco emphasizes it more. Anticipate lasers and make sure you're facing forward and have a way to mitgate it. Shielding is the standard protocol, but you can't just shield every time you see a laser. If you throw up your shield and Falco jumps in with an aerial, he can begin shield pressuring you and that's a position you want to stay out of as much as you can. Making sure you're facing toward them is critical to the next point.

Spacing
It's another fundamental concept but the way you think about it changes a bit against Falco. Your freedom of movement is restricted by projectiles, so you have to think of your movement opportunities in increments. Your goal is to stay at a range where you're too far away for Falco to jump in on you with D-air or N-air, but close enough for you to make him respond to your sword. The product of this is an imaginary "donut" around Falco. You want to be in that sweet zone as often as possible. Doing so will give you a lot more control, as you can respond to his actions with more threat. At this range it's risky for him to jump in because you could wavedash backwards out of shield and punish. You can also short hop forward out of shield and hit him if he tries to laser you at this range. Your gameplan should be to threaten Falco enough to gain stage control, score a grab, or both. Without stage Falco can't freely shoot at you, and getting a grab on him with Marth is a potential stock.

Acting Deliberately
Swing your sword only when you need to. Again, a general rule of Marth that's emphasized by fighting Falco. Especially on FD where there's no platforms, you want to bring your errant swinging to a minimum. A missed swing followed by getting hit with a laser is not something you want to have happen repeatedly. It's how you take damage, lose momentum, have your movement staggered, and above all else, seem less threatening. If you establish your threat by making sure every one of your swings results in a loss for them in some manner, they'll respect your sword a lot more and it will change the way they behave. If they see you swinging wildly and missing, they'll be much less inclined to consider you dangerous and will exert much more punishment onto you. This doesn't mean you should have 100% accuracy. D-tilt is the best example here. Make it known to them that unless they're careful, they'll get stabbed.

Responding to Lasers
You need to get accustomed to playing from your shield, the crouched position, short hops, and platforms (if available) to respond to lasers. You want to use a healthy mix of these options as they can't really cover them all at once. Practice wavedashing out of shield. You can also short-hop over low lasers and land normally or waveland after fastfalling. Even if you get hit with a laser while you're in the air, you can still throw out an attack before you land if you input correctly. You can D-tilt out of landings or OOS options to punish them landing in the wrong spot. If you hold down you can soak up an attack of theirs. While Falco's D-air cannot be crouch canceled, you should try to be spaced so that it won't reach you immediately anyway, and it's still advisable to hold down in between your actions so you can crouch cancel everything else. Practice reacting to a successful crouch cancel. Did they dash attack you? Dash behind them then flip around and grab them while they're still in the animation. Landing on you with N-air? Buffer a roll to escape the shine by holding the C-stick left or right while pressing shield.

Repeating lasers requires Falco to jump again, which you can punish if positioned properly. Retreating and advancing F-airs are a quick way to make them check their spacing, but remember only to swing if your sword will end up inside the imaginary "donut." N-air in place is a good move for if you think they'll jump in on you. Try to use this when you have stage control and anticipate them trying to take some back.

Responding to Shield Pressure
Do not attempt shield grabs. If you find yourself getting shield pressured, find a way to diffuse it. Good players specifically time their aerials to remove the risk of shield grabs by shining you or otherwise if you go for it. You can buffer roll or spotdodge out of your shield like I mentioned before. Try not to repeat the same option too often, they'll begin to read it and extend their punish. If you do find yourself beginning to get hit, pretend like you're trying to dash away from them as they touch you. This will cause you to SDI and make it harder for them to combo you, or if they miss you'll actually dash away. Even if you're in the air, SDI will make their combos significantly harder to pull off.

Punish!
Make sure to train your punish game versus Falco so you can get the most out of your openings. Get some practice in on every stage. Marth has bread and butter stuff that makes Falco hate life, so make sure you get that down. You want to have your punish in mind as you earn your opening, so that means learning what you get at different percentage ranges out of grabs, knockdowns, etc. You can never be too good at this.

Thanks for giving me something to write on. I should go to sleep now, but I hope this helps. And remember, you have basically an infinite time ahead of you to practice and improve. This Falco you're struggling with is only the beginning, and it's an obstacle you will overcome. Time will prove it.

 

[iFLuX]

You've got some good answers here, so I'll instead offer a byte from an article I quite enjoyed.
"My biggest problem with falco is that he's designed in a way that at the lower level of play he’s so goddamned easy that any documentary-jerking, top-player mimicking Falco main can spend a weekend practicing lasers and shine combos and then immediately show up to their dead-ass local and get top 3 just because of how amazing this character is against ****ty players"

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I'm kinda experienced in this MU from both sides, since i play both characters.
First off, try Grabbing out of shield instead of Fair when they do bad lasers right in front of you. When the Falco is performing shield pressure, don't get "greedy" and try to throw out something & just end up getting hit by his pressure. Rolling is good. UpB OOS is a pretty underrated move and I think that it might be a good option, I haven't implemented into my game really. It comes out on frame 5.
Running Dtilt isn't as useful as in other MU's because Falco can just laser you out of it. Wavedash Dtilt works better in this MU.
Falco's neutral might be painful for you to deal with but remember that you have a strong Punish game on him. Also just a random tip for exploiting low level players; If you get a dthrow near the ledge, Low-level falcos tend to always use their DJ immediately out of panic. Dtilt them for a free edgeguard.

I'm kinda mediocre at combo DI personally but I think that Upwards & towards offstage is a good idea.

 

[Kopaka]

You've got some good answers here, so I'll instead offer a byte from an article I quite enjoyed.
"My biggest problem with falco is that he's designed in a way that at the lower level of play he’s so goddamned easy that any documentary-jerking, top-player mimicking Falco main can spend a weekend practicing lasers and shine combos and then immediately show up to their dead-*** local and get top 3 just because of how amazing this character is against ****ty players"

I've always believed Falco does unusually well against newer players because of the amount of more advanced tech that you need to have under your belt to beat him (power shielding).

 

[Tablesalt]

In short, you need to grab Falco, and get him above you so he can't lazer you. Down air can't reach you because Marth's up tilt is huge. Then you just go on from there. Or, you can get them by the ledge and get them off stage and ledge guard.

 

[A_Reverie]

First off, try Grabbing out of shield instead of Fair when they do bad lasers right in front of you.

The only issue with this is Falco can shine immediately after landing with lasers, so if they're in grab range and they do this you get shined.

In short, you need to grab Falco, and get him above you so he can't lazer you. Down air can't reach you because Marth's up tilt is huge. Then you just go on from there. Or, you can get them by the ledge and get them off stage and ledge guard.

While this is correct in a general sense, Fox and Falco are the best characters at getting back down after Marth puts them above him. Only a true juggle on a stage like FD can guarantee that they won't get down, otherwise you're looking at dealing with their platform shenanigans.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It has less to do with advanced tech and more to do with the minds of the players. The "documentary-jerking, top-player mimicking Falco main" who is getting top 3 is winning because his opponents can't find answers to his play as a whole, not because they simply can't powershield.

 

[Klemes]

I see you've listed yourself as a shiek main. Is it still the case ? If so, I can assure you shiek can be excrutiating to play against as Falco. I'm convinced Falco is best vs Marth while Fox is best vs Shiek. I wouldn't say she wins the MU, but she can definitely make Falco's life a living hell, camping needles, staying pretty safe in her huge shield + great OoS options, easy punishes, regrab for days, back-throw into edgeguard at 0% etc. She's easily my least favorite MU as Falco (after ICs, but that's no game).

I do think Falco can make marth look bad, and not only at "lower level" as some have stated earlier. But it's not at all one-sided though. If you keep going, you'll get better vs him for sure, as you get better vs everyone. There's some great advice on this thread already, here's some defensive stuff : so the basic braindead overwhelming bs Falco has is laser laser > shield pressure/grab or something.

PS is great, but not the only answer.
Buffer roll away (be wary of roll in, it's super easy to catch), shield-grab when he lands right out of his own grab range, immediate SH fair can be good too as you said.
WD OoS, seriously, it's the most useful OoS option for any character.
Take the laser into immediate dash back / dtilt / jab / side-b. Don't be afraid of taking a few lasers, it's only a problem when it leads into bigger hits for Falco.
Counter OoS. I'm serious. Counter OoS when he lands right on you after his laser : If he goes for shield pressure you can get him off guard then techchase him, if he grabs, it's a Falco grab : so not THAT bad if you're ready to DI.
F-smash. yes, it comes out faster than his SH laser, so if he starts spamming laser right in your tipper range (he may think he's safe outside of you grab range), take one laser and spam c-stick to make him understand VERY clearly he can't do that.
There's the dash attack under laser, but I don't think it's a great option, as you said it's a free punish on whiff.

Be very focused and deliberate about your answers to his laser approach / spam. When you mix it up efficiently the Falco will quickly realise he can't do whatever he wants, and you'll get his respect (which is nice) so the MU gets more doable for you, and more interesting for everyone.

 

[FrankDaTank]

I see you've listed yourself as a shiek main. Is it still the case ? If so, I can assure you shiek can be excrutiating to play against as Falco. I'm convinced Falco is best vs Marth while Fox is best vs Shiek. I wouldn't say she wins the MU, but she can definitely make Falco's life a living hell, camping needles, staying pretty safe in her huge shield + great OoS options, easy punishes, regrab for days, back-throw into edgeguard at 0% etc. She's easily my least favorite MU as Falco (after ICs, but that's no game).

I do think Falco can make marth look bad, and not only at "lower level" as some have stated earlier. But it's not at all one-sided though. If you keep going, you'll get better vs him for sure, as you get better vs everyone. There's some great advice on this thread already, here's some defensive stuff : so the basic braindead overwhelming bs Falco has is laser laser > shield pressure/grab or something.

PS is great, but not the only answer.
Buffer roll away (be wary of roll in, it's super easy to catch), shield-grab when he lands right out of his own grab range, immediate SH fair can be good too as you said.
WD OoS, seriously, it's the most useful OoS option for any character.
Take the laser into immediate dash back / dtilt / jab / side-b. Don't be afraid of taking a few lasers, it's only a problem when it leads into bigger hits for Falco.
Counter OoS. I'm serious. Counter OoS when he lands right on you after his laser : If he goes for shield pressure you can get him off guard then techchase him, if he grabs, it's a Falco grab : so not THAT bad if you're ready to DI.
F-smash. yes, it comes out faster than his SH laser, so if he starts spamming laser right in your tipper range (he may think he's safe outside of you grab range), take one laser and spam c-stick to make him understand VERY clearly he can't do that.
There's the dash attack under laser, but I don't think it's a great option, as you said it's a free punish on whiff.

Be very focused and deliberate about your answers to his laser approach / spam. When you mix it up efficiently the Falco will quickly realise he can't do whatever he wants, and you'll get his respect (which is nice) so the MU gets more doable for you, and more interesting for everyone.

Thanks for the tips. I've always been a dual Marth/Sheik main. I have an easier time with it as Sheik because of dthrow tech chasing and needles destroying Falco in general, but I want to learn it as Marth. I like playing all matchups as both my characters for the sake of experience.

I'm still having trouble against Falco just because of his ridiculous laser approaches but maybe I'll learn to move better with time. It seems like I have problems wavedashing OoS after getting hit by a laser and then the usual dair shine nonsense begins. I would honestly say he is the character I have the most trouble with because I hate not being able to move around so fluidly like I can in any other matchup.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Pay close attention to laser spacing. While WD OoS should be the go to option pretty much, if you run out of room, or can't get back stage position after multiple exchanges resulting from this, or if you just want to be more proactive, you'll have to do something else.

If Falco lands close with a laser, well first, you shouldn't let him land close, you should hit him before it happens. But if he doesn't, he will probably do a tilt, a shine, a grab, a jab, or an fsmash (the counter to this one will be the same as any other smash attack). I'll start this with, you can shield grab before most of these come out, more often than not, and in the case of the jab, you can generally just mash grab and hold down. The tilts and Smashes, you can grab after with appropriate DI always. Shine? Shield DI out and hope for the best, though he needs to be closer for this one than any other.

Of course, you're better off just not letting him land next to use with a laser in neutral. If he lasers from farther and immediately jumps in, an immediate nair OoS will generally come out on top, and you can adjust drift vs grounded options to hit him before they come out or have a hitbox to reach you, or drift out if you're less confident in hitting. Similarly, these kind of nair can be used to counter fade-back aerial -> stuff, and given Falco's ground speed, crossing him up in neutral with nair is something that can be relied on more than vs other top tiers. Vs. a particularly early aerial, you can also wd forward -> punish. WD OoS fsmash will win vs most forms of Falco pressing buttons, in fact.

Of course, it's best to either be too close for Falco jumping doing Falco things to be punishable, or too far for Falco doing Falco things to have any kind of follow up, or be a credible threat.

You can also just opt not to shield the lasers. You can dash after getting hit, use platforms (unless it's FD), and if conscientious of height, dash under high lasers and jump over low ones.

Always be on the lookout for CC.

In short: WD OoS is top tier, as it not shielding lasers, Falco automatic multiple jumps or laser -> some attack not involving standing next to you lose to various types of nair (or fair) OoS with appropriate drift, or no one gets hit. Hit Falco if he jumps to land near you, or starts a jump near you that isn't coming towards you, Nair and fair OoS can also deal with fadeback pressure, and you can punish early aerials with WD forward -> stuff. Shield DI in -> grab beats most ground stuff, Shield DI stops Falco's mixup game. If you can powershield, that's also great; it's easier out of dashes, and particularly easy if the laser goes over you.