Marth Upthrow

[Sur Fartsalot]

I am having a bit of difficulty chaining upthrows on foxes. It seems like I can't really pivot grab well after upthrowing, nor starting the dash at the same time. Any advice? Also, is there any advice for getting out of this chain grab other than DI as fox?
Sorry if this is already posted somewhere :/

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I am having a bit of difficulty chaining upthrows on foxes. It seems like I can't really pivot grab well after upthrowing, nor starting the dash at the same time. Any advice? Also, is there any advice for getting out of this chain grab other than DI as fox?
Sorry if this is already posted somewhere :/

If you can't do the chain grab just use mix ups, U-tilt, Ftilt, Fsmash, etc. No not really, it's super hard to get out of and you basically can't until a certain percent unless the marth effs up.

 

[AirFair]

up till about 16% you can do regular regrabs. On neutral DI after, you have to pivot grab. You just have to research it, and lab it out. You can start utilting at 30% and at 60% uthrow tipper.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Grab, pummel, hold down on c-stick to buffer dthrow, tech-chase, possibly wavedashing after the throw if you can't get the earlier regrabs. You can also tipper or reverse dolphin to punish when they tech nearer to a ledge and begin an edgeguard. Also, practice shffl uair, it can help to continue the combo on certain DI (be sure to sweetspot).

 

[AirFair]

Honestly, I would not advise pummeling till higher percents because it can be mashed out of at lower percents.

 

[dRevan64]

Honestly, I would not advise pummeling till higher percents because it can be mashed out of at lower percents.

as numbers man up above said, you can buffer the throw through a pummel and guarantee it even with perfect mashing

 

[dreamhouse]

Honestly, I would not advise pummeling till higher percents because it can be mashed out of at lower percents.

I disagree. In theory yes, but in practice nobody seems to be able to mash out of one pummel grab when done with tight timing. Not pummeling means you have to be twice as good at the chaingrab just to avoid something that isn't even a real threat.

To OP:

To practice chain grab I recommend downloading 20XX. Press Y and up to set the max % to whatever player 2's % is currently so you can freeze at a certain percent and practice each part of the chaingrab over and over. To practice vs no di just make it a human instead of CPU.

 

[Rlagkrud]

I disagree. In theory yes, but in practice nobody seems to be able to mash out of one pummel grab when done with tight timing. Not pummeling means you have to be twice as good at the chaingrab just to avoid something that isn't even a real threat.

I disagree with your disagreement.
Assuming you play lower level players, yes what you say is true.
However, higher level players will notice your habit of pummeling at low percent and easily mash out.
Starting the mash before you get grabbed (which is you do because you're assuming you'll get regrabbed) is pretty reliable way of getting out of the grab.
That's why M2k never pummels at lower percent.
However, what you can do is get a grab, wait half a second to prepare, and throw. This will make it a lot easier than instant throwing.

 

[dreamhouse]

I disagree with your disagreement.
Assuming you play lower level players, yes what you say is true.
However, higher level players will notice your habit of pummeling at low percent and easily mash out.
Starting the mash before you get grabbed (which is you do because you're assuming you'll get regrabbed) is pretty reliable way of getting out of the grab.
That's why M2k never pummels at lower percent.
However, what you can do is get a grab, wait half a second to prepare, and throw. This will make it a lot easier than instant throwing.

I'm specifically drawing from watching high level players when I said this, and what I said is more or less a paraphrase of what PP has said about pummeling before. Can you post some examples of people mashing out of PP's chaingrab in high level matches?

I think the don't pummel advice is outdated common sense that doesn't really mesh with reality.

 

[tauKhan]

Whý would you risk pummeling when the regrab is guaranteed anyway? And I just tested this in practice with my training partner, it's very easy to mash out below 15%. I even had hard time getting uthrow after just one pummel at 37%, and my opponent has NEVER practiced mashing before.

as numbers man up above said, you can buffer the throw through a pummel and guarantee it even with perfect mashing

1. At low% you can get out regardless, even with very imperfect mashing.
2. You can't even buffer uthrow

 

[dRevan64]

1. At low% you can get out regardless, even with very imperfect mashing.
2. You can't even buffer uthrow

Is that so? I was repeating what I was told elsewhere by a better player than me, if that's the case never mind.

 

[tauKhan]

I haven't calculated the mashing stuff myself, but I trust the information I've got from I think @ Kadano , @Strong Bad and @Fly_Amanita

And in real life testing it felt really hard to get pummel in even at 30%.

 

[Kadano]

I haven't calculated the mashing stuff myself, but I trust the information I've got from I think @ Kadano , @Strong Bad and @Fly_Amanita

And in real life testing it felt really hard to get pummel in even at 30%.

If you pummel and uthrow on the first possible frames, you can start pummeling from 20% on. For every frame you are late, the percentage increases by 8.125. So if you are one frame late on both, which is probably the most likely value you can easily get consistent at, pummeling is guaranteed from 36% on.

 

[AirFair]

Yeah against lower level players who probably wouldn't know, pummeling is fine. It's just that I prefer the guaranteed things. No harm in it.

 

[Saint Shaden 009]

Here's what I've been using for my CG general percentages and what to do.

MIGHT NOT BE 100% ACCURATE THOUGH

1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper

 

[tonic]

Isn't that straight off Beat's chaingrab breakdown? I would credit him for that.

Also, that's for the PAL version where fox is slightly lighter. The percentages differ slightly in NTSC. What they are exactly I don't know for certain.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If you pummel and uthrow on the first possible frames, you can start pummeling from 20% on. For every frame you are late, the percentage increases by 8.125. So if you are one frame late on both, which is probably the most likely value you can easily get consistent at, pummeling is guaranteed from 36% on.

You have any information about mashing out in regards to mashing buttons? I believe if someone truly trying to mash out they would be involving the control stick which means they would not be DI'ing correctly. Which means you sort of get easier CG's or get to avoid the number of regrabs by throwing in pummels and get out of tech heavy areas like at 19% on Fox with having to pivot grab to cover no DI.

 

[Thor]

Quick clarification for the guy who never really understood *exactly* what people were talking about by pivot regrabs...

When people say pivot regrab, is that "turn around and hit Z", or "dash forward, hit back, grab [what is called a "perfect pivot" when discussed in Smash 4]", or "dash forward, hit back, JC grab" [what I'd think would be a dashdance JC grab]?

Without all the junk, is it really a pivot [ala PewPewU vs Hbox Apex 2015], a turnaround, or a DD JC grab [or even a dash grab??? I know Peach's CG is with a dash grab, thought Marth was supposed to JC them but...?]?

Also, is there some percent where Fox can shine out with slight DI, or is that only assuming one doesn't pivot grab?

 

[Saint Shaden 009]

Isn't that straight off Beat's chaingrab breakdown? I would credit him for that.

Also, that's for the PAL version where fox is slightly lighter. The percentages differ slightly in NTSC. What they are exactly I don't know for certain.

I can't remember who wrote it since I just copied it to a file some time ago, but if that's him than credit all day.

It might be PAL, but it's worked for me rather well, tbh.

 

[tonic]

When people say pivot regrab, is that "turn around and hit Z", or "dash forward, hit back, grab [what is called a "perfect pivot" when discussed in Smash 4]", or "dash forward, hit back, JC grab" [what I'd think would be a dashdance JC grab]?

Without all the junk, is it really a pivot [ala PewPewU vs Hbox Apex 2015], a turnaround, or a DD JC grab [or even a dash grab??? I know Peach's CG is with a dash grab, thought Marth was supposed to JC them but...?]?

"turn around and hit Z" is a turnaround regrab.
"dash forward, hit back, JC grab" is referred to as a pivot grab. More on this in a sec.
A "True" Pivot grab refers to your second statement. A true pivot can use a JC grab or standing grab, it doesn't really matter although the JC grab is 1 frame slower at best.

The true pivot is a pivot. A turnaround grab simply uses a turnaround. The "normal" pivot grab is simply a glorified DD JC grab (the term pivot is misleading as you do not actually need to pivot), although as I mentioned earlier you can still pivot -> JC grab. The distinguishing factor between a "true" pivot and just a normal pivot grab is if you input your action on the frame after the pivot frame, or actually perform an empty pivot.

 

[Thor]

"turn around and hit Z" is a turnaround regrab.
"dash forward, hit back, JC grab" is referred to as a pivot grab. More on this in a sec.
A "True" Pivot grab refers to your second statement. A true pivot can use a JC grab or standing grab, it doesn't really matter although the JC grab is 1 frame slower at best.

The true pivot is a pivot. A turnaround grab simply uses a turnaround. The "normal" pivot grab is simply a glorified DD JC grab (the term pivot is misleading as you do not actually need to pivot), although as I mentioned earlier you can still pivot -> JC grab. The distinguishing factor between a "true" pivot and just a normal pivot grab is if you input your action on the frame after the pivot frame, or actually perform an empty pivot.

So... I DON'T need to be using a "True" ["Perfect"] Pivot for this? That is, when people say you need to start using pivot grabs, they mean you need to DD JC grab? [Obviously "True" Pivot grab works, but that's trickier and I'm curious exactly how technical I need to be with this.]

This is what I took from your explanation but I don't want to be doing things that just don't work.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

There are two ways as mentioned.

Dash -> turn -> grab. But this grab has to occur on the singular frame. Very tight timing.
Dash -> dash back -> jump -> grab. This achieves effectively the same result and is much easier to execute for many people.

The reason you have to do it for fox is there is a moment where you literally cannot grab fox on his no DI with marth from either standing & grabbing or trying to turn around & grab. The grab box literally cannot get fox in a percentage range (which I always forget). Therefore, the only way to continue the chaingrab on no DI is to do the pivot grab using one of the aforementioned two methods.

 

[tonic]

So... I DON'T need to be using a "True" ["Perfect"] Pivot for this? That is, when people say you need to start using pivot grabs, they mean you need to DD JC grab? [Obviously "True" Pivot grab works, but that's trickier and I'm curious exactly how technical I need to be with this.]

This is what I took from your explanation but I don't want to be doing things that just don't work.

Yes, that's correct. It needs to be a tight DD though, or the spacie can shine out. Either way, you can still go for the true pivot (with JC grab). If you get it all is good. If you don't, you end up doing a DD grab anyways. So it's an option select.

 

[Thor]

There are two ways as mentioned.

Dash -> turn -> grab. But this grab has to occur on the singular frame. Very tight timing.
Dash -> dash back -> jump -> grab. This achieves effectively the same result and is much easier to execute for many people.

The reason you have to do it for fox is there is a moment where you literally cannot grab fox on his no DI with marth from either standing & grabbing or trying to turn around & grab. The grab box literally cannot get fox in a percentage range (which I always forget). Therefore, the only way to continue the chaingrab on no DI is to do the pivot grab using one of the aforementioned two methods.

For what it's worth, the number I'm used to hearing for that range is 20 to 23% [post throw? pre throw? Not sure on that part...], which is why I often see pummels in that range.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

A little late, but I was referring to buffering dthrow because that knocks down at 0. If you're not feeling confident in getting regrabs from uthrow at 0, this is simply an alternative.

 

[Signia]

"turn around and hit Z" is a turnaround regrab.
"dash forward, hit back, JC grab" is referred to as a pivot grab. More on this in a sec.
A "True" Pivot grab refers to your second statement. A true pivot can use a JC grab or standing grab, it doesn't really matter although the JC grab is 1 frame slower at best.

The true pivot is a pivot. A turnaround grab simply uses a turnaround. The "normal" pivot grab is simply a glorified DD JC grab (the term pivot is misleading as you do not actually need to pivot), although as I mentioned earlier you can still pivot -> JC grab. The distinguishing factor between a "true" pivot and just a normal pivot grab is if you input your action on the frame after the pivot frame, or actually perform an empty pivot.

There's just pivot grab, no "true" or "normal" or "perfect." DD JC grab is just that.

For what it's worth, the number I'm used to hearing for that range is 20 to 23% [post throw? pre throw? Not sure on that part...], which is why I often see pummels in that range.

Some say it's 16% some say it's 18%, some say it's 20%. I suspect the discrepancy has to do with port priority. Higher port means one less inactionable frame, as discovered a few months ago. P4 for life.

If you do it right, you only have to do two, maybe three pivot grabs, only pummelling once before each throw.

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

Anyone else have a hard time with hard-DI behind at these stages? Especially at 50-65%, it's really hard to uair if they DI behind and even then still hard to follow that with a regrab, or just regrab at the lower end of that scale. This is where I tend to drop the combo. For Falco especially (I know the percents are differently) it feels like there's a sour spot where toward DI makes it both hard to regrab and hard to continue the combo predictably in another way.

Would an auto-cancel fair to regrab fare better than an uair, since uair has a lot of landing lag, or would they just be able to DI away to escape a followup?

 

[Thor]

There's just pivot grab, no "true" or "normal" or "perfect." DD JC grab is just that.

There actually is a difference. At least in the inputs, if not in the end result if executed properly.

Pivot grabs in Brawl/Smash 4 are where you are a run and hit back and Z and grab backwards out of a run, no jump cancel or DD needs to occur. Pivot grabbing in Melee requires DDing and JCing (at least for the CG). You can also omit the JC if you are frame perfect, because if you dash forward and hit back for one frame, you'll enter a standing animation and not move forward and thus standing grab. This is what a "pivot grab" would be if you took the words on their own [doing a pivot (people call it a perfect pivot in Smash 4 because... reasons :\) and then grabbing], but this is not what the pivot grab people are discussing above actually is.

Incidentally, the truly fastest option for the regrab is the one where you omit the JC, because JCing slows it down and you also spent frames dashing the other way [whereas if you dash forward a short enough time period, you'll still be in range for the grab]. However, this is not required, and he was clarifying for me that a pivot grab is usually meant as a DD JC grab unless otherwise specified, not actually forcing me to do a pivot. He also clarified all this because I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong.

 

[tonic]

Yep, it's really more an issue of semantics/execution than what actually happens on the screen. I've been researching pivots for a while now and I'm pretty sure my post clearly covers the exact differences between the types of "pivot grabs".

 

[Signia]

There actually is a difference. At least in the inputs, if not in the end result if executed properly.

Pivot grabs in Brawl/Smash 4 are where you are a run and hit back and Z and grab backwards out of a run, no jump cancel or DD needs to occur. Pivot grabbing in Melee requires DDing and JCing (at least for the CG). You can also omit the JC if you are frame perfect, because if you dash forward and hit back for one frame, you'll enter a standing animation and not move forward and thus standing grab. This is what a "pivot grab" would be if you took the words on their own [doing a pivot (people call it a perfect pivot in Smash 4 because... reasons :\) and then grabbing], but this is not what the pivot grab people are discussing above actually is.

Yeah, the Smash 4 and Brawl usage of "pivot grab" is completely different, but their "pivot grab" doesn't exist in Melee. It was stupid of them to name the special grab that you can do out of turning around, which you can't do in Melee, a "pivot grab," because "pivot grab" already existed as a conjunction of "pivot," turning around during an initial dash, and grab. Now that turning around during an initial dash is possible and more usable they need to use a special name for it (perfect pivot), and so "pivot" lost all meaning on it's own.

But Melee players don't need to care about that. We don't need any unclear definition of "pivot." It's turning around during an initial dash and going into a the wait state. "pivot x" is doing an attack after going through dash->wait transition.

"Pivot grabbing in Melee requires DDing and JCing (at least for the CG)." WRONG

@ T tonic

he was clarifying for me that a pivot grab is usually meant as a DD JC grab unless otherwise specified, not actually forcing me to do a pivot.

Yeah, and I'm saying that's wrong. Nobody means "pivot grab" to be DD JC grab. They mean pivot into a grab. If they say "pivot grab" and mean "DD JC Grab," they're just wrong.

These words have very clear definitions to avoid this kind of confusion.

 

[tonic]

@ T tonic

Yeah, and I'm saying that's wrong. Nobody means "pivot grab" to be DD JC grab. They mean pivot into a grab. If they say "pivot grab" and mean "DD JC Grab," they're just wrong.

These words have very clear definitions to avoid this kind of confusion.

A lot of people, when referring to the chaingrab on spacies, say that you need to pivot grab to get a regrab. This is not true. You can alternatively, simply DD JC Grab. The confusion is that most people are not doing true pivot grabs, but doing DD JC Grabs, yet colloquially refer to their DD JC Grab as pivot grabs.

I agree that the term "pivot grab" should only be used to describe a pivot into a grab, but unfortunately this isn't the case.