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Marth Neutral

Live4Chaos

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
9
Location
Richmond, VA
Hey guys I'v been trying to refine my game a lot recently and am hitting a wall when trying to get better at the neutral game as Marth. I wanted to try to get some opinions on what Marth should be doing in neutral and what my options are to try to find my personal issue. Also some opinions on the issues I know of would be fantastic!

The first issue that is a critical flaw in my game is my dash dancing. I'm not implementing it efficiently enough to break through to the next level of player. I feel like I am dash dancing because I have trouble discerning what option I should be selecting in neutral, like when to run up downtilt, grab, wavedash downtilt, rising fair, what have you. What are some options for mix ups in neutral?

I also feel that my dash dancing is too predictable or the pattern in which I do it in is. And tend to end up giving up a lot of stage hoping they commit to a move and getting hit with an overshot aerial and being put in a bad position. Conversely, I feel I have an issue taking stage with dash dancing and either making good use of it or overcommiting in a chase.

I suppose this is what I'm trying to work on right at this moment. I hope this makes sense because it came out more as a flow of consciousness.
 

A_Reverie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
175
I also feel that my dash dancing is too predictable or the pattern in which I do it in is. And tend to end up giving up a lot of stage hoping they commit to a move and getting hit with an overshot aerial and being put in a bad position. Conversely, I feel I have an issue taking stage with dash dancing and either making good use of it or overcommiting in a chase.
Runaway Marth is probably the easiest habit to fall into. I was in the same situation not long ago. There's a whole local maxima concept on Marth's grab. Marth's punishes off of grab are so powerful that it's tempting to fall into a patterned strategy where you try to get as many grabs as possible, but that's only scratching the surface of what Marth is capable of.

Your issue with movement is that it lacks purpose. Movement isn't something you're supposed to do while you're idle thinking about your next move. Movement IS your next move in the sense that you want to use it to position yourself to exert pressure on your opponent. This is a huge, deeply complex concept that you'll gain more mastery of the longer you play. It's a layered concept that builds from spacing mostly for D-tilt and F-air. Grab is a punish move used when you have the position to do so, and that position is earned through purposeful movement. If your opponent sees you know how to space a move like D-tilt, he will respect your movement and play by your rules. Maintaining that space, and in turn, that force of will over your opponent will net you the gain of punish.

I hope this makes sense because it came out more as a flow of consciousness.
Namaste.
 

Live4Chaos

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
9
Location
Richmond, VA
Your issue with movement is that it lacks purpose. Movement isn't something you're supposed to do while you're idle thinking about your next move. Movement IS your next move in the sense that you want to use it to position yourself to exert pressure on your opponent.
This speaks volumes to me and is exactly what I needed to hear I think. To further drive home the point can you give me a theoretical scenario between yourself and an opponent in neutral and the things you would be thinking about in your movement?

Also how exactly do I space for the D-tilt and F-air. What would be your thought process and what would you be looking for as your signal to move from movement to D-tilt/F-air aside from a whiff punish?

I think you really hit the nail on the head. Thanks so much.
 

A_Reverie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
175
This speaks volumes to me and is exactly what I needed to hear I think. To further drive home the point can you give me a theoretical scenario between yourself and an opponent in neutral and the things you would be thinking about in your movement?

Also how exactly do I space for the D-tilt and F-air. What would be your thought process and what would you be looking for as your signal to move from movement to D-tilt/F-air aside from a whiff punish?

I think you really hit the nail on the head. Thanks so much.
Your followup questions go pretty deep, but I'll try my best.

The fundamental concept of stage control is a building block for your decision making as a whole. There are a staggering amount of examples that could be given (probably infinite) but there are rules you can follow to help you zero in on the choices you should be looking at versus the ones that are niche or unviable. The way I like to think about things is the amount of stage you control is directly proportionate to the amount of choices you have available to you. This is where the concept of stage advantage comes from, but there's more to it than just "stage advantage=winning."

With more choices available to you as a whole, there are also more wrong decisions that can be made. Ones that cause you to overextend, lose stage, etc. This, I believe, is what separates the top players from the rest in that they are aware of more of these decisions, thanks to their years of experience and exposure to decision making. So regardless of being aware of this concept, a player like myself cannot truly take advantage of it simply due to my lack of exposure. Understanding the fundamental concept is essential to growth, however, but I'll still try to detail a more specific situation like you've asked.

Marth vs. Sheik - Battlefield
Imagine you, the Marth player, have center stage while Sheik is underneath the right side platform. While the current interaction is neutral, you have stage control and are, in effect, in an advantageous position. You have a variety of options, Sheik has fewer. Knowing this, you can examine the matchup and determine which strengths you can use to form a gameplan and put the opponent at a further disadvantage. You can tier this gameplan into a series of strategies that you choose from in response to certain situations, sort of like a hand of cards in a card game like Hearthstone. Difference is the decision made here is very fast! One of your best "cards" in this situation is D-tilt, as Sheik is cornered and has less stage to actively space away and avoid getting hit by it.

Each choice you make carries an amount of risk/reward, which you can think of as a ratio. The D-tilt in this case has a good ratio, as its relatively low risk can poke Sheik for damage and force them off stage, which is a rather high reward. It carries a less common point of failure, which is what occurs when your choice loses to theirs. There are other choices you can make, like dashing in for a grab, that carry much higher rewards, but more risk and in turn more common points of failure. This is only taking in consideration the fact that YOU initiated the interaction while Sheik was the responding player. It can go the other way around if Sheik chooses to push through you with something like a dash attack, or AC F-air. If you bundle all of this up (each player's decision, the resulting actions, and the final result) you end up with a complete interaction. The entire crux of my explanation is that if you were to go back to the start of all of this and realize exactly what the interaction built from, you'd see it was built from movement.

Movement and positioning are what each player uses as the base of their decisions. Both players move and position as a neutral from of interaction, the very base layer of which interactions that involve attacks, shields, jumps, rolls, nice back airs, and everything else are built from. Your goal in neutral is to move and position in a manner that gains you control of the stage and power of the number of choices that can be made between the two players.

Vs. Fox, removing their choice of running shine by covering the ground with WD back D-tilt.
Vs. Falco, removing their choice to laser by remaining at a critical range to respond to laser attempts with attacks.
Vs. Sheik, adding risk to their choice to bait you for a grab by advancing and taking stage instead of committing.
Vs. Sheik, removing their choice of crossing you up via platform by neglecting to pursue them while they are underneath it.
Vs. Marth, earning the choice to pressure with aerials by pushing the opposing Marth out of center, giving them less room to avoid.
Vs. Falcon adding risk to their decision to jump in with an aerial by remaining grounded, free to choose.

The examples are infinite, but hopefully this helps you build a fundamental understanding of what to think about when moving, and when you're at a certain position. All of these choices and interactions occur at a blinding speed, but as you gain more experience, it'll be like DBZ where you're the guy that can see the two people fighting and know what's happening on a deeper level. Within your own play, however, it'll be a long journey of learning. Mental space is limited, but as you improve through your time with the game, things like tech skill and other execution based things will take up less mental space, which allows you more space to focus and think on these complex concepts.

EDIT: I probably missed some things here, but I think there's still enough to think and learn from. Feel free to respond and ask more specific questions.

EDIT2: As for specific times to D-tilt/F-air it depends on spacing. You want to occupy a zone that gives you enough room to WD forward into D-tilt, which is your maximum range choice for that move. In the same zone you can choose to running D-tilt, wavedash in place D-tilt, or dash forward as bait to WD back D-tilt. F-air depends on if you're choosing rising or SHFFL. Rising F-air is more of a reactive move that can punish them entering your space (jumping forward), or to guard against them entering yours (jumping backward) both of which can be followed by another F-air. SHFFL F-air can be thought of as a way to enter a zone. Imagine when you're coming down with it that you're posting yourself into the ground and into that zone as a result. Can be followed up with D-tilt, dashing to reposition, and even crouch cancel. Aerial maneuvers carry more vulnerability, though.
 
Last edited:

Live4Chaos

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
9
Location
Richmond, VA
Your followup questions go pretty deep, but I'll try my best.

The fundamental concept of stage control is a building block for your decision making as a whole. There are a staggering amount of examples that could be given (probably infinite) but there are rules you can follow to help you zero in on the choices you should be looking at versus the ones that are niche or unviable. The way I like to think about things is the amount of stage you control is directly proportionate to the amount of choices you have available to you. This is where the concept of stage advantage comes from, but there's more to it than just "stage advantage=winning."

With more choices available to you as a whole, there are also more wrong decisions that can be made. Ones that cause you to overextend, lose stage, etc. This, I believe, is what separates the top players from the rest in that they are aware of more of these decisions, thanks to their years of experience and exposure to decision making. So regardless of being aware of this concept, a player like myself cannot truly take advantage of it simply due to my lack of exposure. Understanding the fundamental concept is essential to growth, however, but I'll still try to detail a more specific situation like you've asked.

Marth vs. Sheik - Battlefield
Imagine you, the Marth player, have center stage while Sheik is underneath the right side platform. While the current interaction is neutral, you have stage control and are, in effect, in an advantageous position. You have a variety of options, Sheik has fewer. Knowing this, you can examine the matchup and determine which strengths you can use to form a gameplan and put the opponent at a further disadvantage. You can tier this gameplan into a series of strategies that you choose from in response to certain situations, sort of like a hand of cards in a card game like Hearthstone. Difference is the decision made here is very fast! One of your best "cards" in this situation is D-tilt, as Sheik is cornered and has less stage to actively space away and avoid getting hit by it.

Each choice you make carries an amount of risk/reward, which you can think of as a ratio. The D-tilt in this case has a good ratio, as its relatively low risk can poke Sheik for damage and force them off stage, which is a rather high reward. It carries a less common point of failure, which is what occurs when your choice loses to theirs. There are other choices you can make, like dashing in for a grab, that carry much higher rewards, but more risk and in turn more common points of failure. This is only taking in consideration the fact that YOU initiated the interaction while Sheik was the responding player. It can go the other way around if Sheik chooses to push through you with something like a dash attack, or AC F-air. If you bundle all of this up (each player's decision, the resulting actions, and the final result) you end up with a complete interaction. The entire crux of my explanation is that if you were to go back to the start of all of this and realize exactly what the interaction built from, you'd see it was built from movement.

Movement and positioning are what each player uses as the base of their decisions. Both players move and position as a neutral from of interaction, the very base layer of which interactions that involve attacks, shields, jumps, rolls, nice back airs, and everything else are built from. Your goal in neutral is to move and position in a manner that gains you control of the stage and power of the number of choices that can be made between the two players.

Vs. Fox, removing their choice of running shine by covering the ground with WD back D-tilt.
Vs. Falco, removing their choice to laser by remaining at a critical range to respond to laser attempts with attacks.
Vs. Sheik, adding risk to their choice to bait you for a grab by advancing and taking stage instead of committing.
Vs. Sheik, removing their choice of crossing you up via platform by neglecting to pursue them while they are underneath it.
Vs. Marth, earning the choice to pressure with aerials by pushing the opposing Marth out of center, giving them less room to avoid.
Vs. Falcon adding risk to their decision to jump in with an aerial by remaining grounded, free to choose.

The examples are infinite, but hopefully this helps you build a fundamental understanding of what to think about when moving, and when you're at a certain position. All of these choices and interactions occur at a blinding speed, but as you gain more experience, it'll be like DBZ where you're the guy that can see the two people fighting and know what's happening on a deeper level. Within your own play, however, it'll be a long journey of learning. Mental space is limited, but as you improve through your time with the game, things like tech skill and other execution based things will take up less mental space, which allows you more space to focus and think on these complex concepts.

EDIT: I probably missed some things here, but I think there's still enough to think and learn from. Feel free to respond and ask more specific questions.

EDIT2: As for specific times to D-tilt/F-air it depends on spacing. You want to occupy a zone that gives you enough room to WD forward into D-tilt, which is your maximum range choice for that move. In the same zone you can choose to running D-tilt, wavedash in place D-tilt, or dash forward as bait to WD back D-tilt. F-air depends on if you're choosing rising or SHFFL. Rising F-air is more of a reactive move that can punish them entering your space (jumping forward), or to guard against them entering yours (jumping backward) both of which can be followed by another F-air. SHFFL F-air can be thought of as a way to enter a zone. Imagine when you're coming down with it that you're posting yourself into the ground and into that zone as a result. Can be followed up with D-tilt, dashing to reposition, and even crouch cancel. Aerial maneuvers carry more vulnerability, though.
This was very insightful and has really helped me open my eyes to what is happening on a greater scale with smaller interactions. You also helped answer some questions I hadn't even asked yet so thank you again. I feel I will be referring back to this often.
 

A_Reverie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
175
This was very insightful and has really helped me open my eyes to what is happening on a greater scale with smaller interactions. You also helped answer some questions I hadn't even asked yet so thank you again. I feel I will be referring back to this often.
I encourage you to go watch some pro sets and try to apply some of this. Setting the speed to x0.5 can help. Good luck!
 

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Houston, Texas
Dashdancing is a really good way of noticing what your opponent's intentions are. You want to be very patient when you dashdance, and weave according to where in their space you want to be, so you can observe any reactions. When you do decide to go in for a dtilt, it should be when you either notice that they are not going to come in or if you want to observe what they do after. For instance, if I were to approach with a dash or wd forward and notice their shield, then I could use dtilt to poke and observe their response. If it's just the two of you dashdancing, then you want to use ambiguous movement to fake approaches. Remember that you DO NOT have to commit, and it is much better to use dash and dtilt to zone than to always be attacking.
 

Live4Chaos

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
9
Location
Richmond, VA
Dashdancing is a really good way of noticing what your opponent's intentions are. You want to be very patient when you dashdance, and weave according to where in their space you want to be, so you can observe any reactions. When you do decide to go in for a dtilt, it should be when you either notice that they are not going to come in or if you want to observe what they do after. For instance, if I were to approach with a dash or wd forward and notice their shield, then I could use dtilt to poke and observe their response. If it's just the two of you dashdancing, then you want to use ambiguous movement to fake approaches. Remember that you DO NOT have to commit, and it is much better to use dash and dtilt to zone than to always be attacking.
What's a good way to either take space or at minimum not give up space while both people are dash dancing in neutral. Say the opponent is a fox.
 

1000g2g3g4g800999

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Messages
368
Location
Earth
Before I say anything about attacks, let's talk movement. Some simple rules to remember for dash dancing:
1. Don't assume you'll avoid a hit with your DD, be ready to take other appropriate measures to avoid taking damage.
2. Vary dash dance length, and position. I'm not the biggest fan of mixups for the sake of being mixups, but this is important for not giving the opponent a specific pattern to follow to a rhythm so they can get a hit on you, or otherwise hit you because they know where you're going to be well in advance. You're on the ground and have constant control over your movement, this shouldn't happen to you.
3. Always be aware of the limitations from frame data of your movement at any point, and what your options are. At any point dashing, you can jump and thus wavedash, but wavedashing leaves you vulnerable for a considerable period. You don't want to wavedash into a space the opponent can hit you before Landfallspecial ends. Similarly, you don't want to start a dash in a position where you might want to shield in the next couple of frames, you don't want to input a dash in the other direction once your character starts running, you don't want to try to crouch dtilt during initial dash, and you don't want to input a fox trot when you just started dashing in that direction. At the same time, you do want to crouch to go back into DD or do grounded attacks after entering run, you do want to fox trot, and not dash back towards a hitbox that would hit you, or otherwise wait a little longer before going back in or pivoting, and you do want to wavedash when you've messed up any of the other parts of ground movement here, when you have the space to do it, when you need a sudden burst of speed, and when you want to travel quickly with a hitbox out. You do not want to shield when you aren't using it to stop motion or block an attack (or do one of few techniques it can speed up, life platform dropping) as it limits your options. You do want to wavedash out of shield if you can't hit someone directly just yet from shield, and you won't get hit for doing it, as it's the lowest commitment option you have out of shield, and has all of those wonderful movement bonuses.
4. For all the comfort you should have in your movement elaborated on above, you should really be paying more attention to your opponent. You should know what you're doing without watching yourself intently. During more sensitive interactions, the images of the two of you will start to blend into one, anyway.
5. Think the next step ahead when it comes to movement, or the safest method to the current step. This may mean overshooting an approach to deal with an attempt to dash back and punish it, or poke with something that lasts a short time, but has range. For Marth, this usually means dtilt, which unlike the option you might see from say, Fox, actually does something to combat tactics like crouch cancel as well. This means to beat these tactics you have to be extra aware, and either go even further back (probably not, if they're watching for their proximity to you), or you've found the time to move forward, and possibly shield. Or suddenly bring out a hitbox of your own.


long stuff:
Ah,now we're beginning to delve into usage of attacks, dealing with specific options and whatnot:

Aside from just poking, run up dtilt is best vs the back end of their dash, as was just stated. If you're not confident in your timing for this, or any other type of precise approach (like run up grab), it's probably better not to dash there in the first place, but during initial dash, shield stop is harder to punish if it whiffs.

From the shield stop, fairs or nairs in place or retreating can beat most attempts to hit your dash forward, and are harder, but not impossible to punish than jumping in outright. Approaching with a shield stop grab spaces it so you don't fly into the opponent if you miss. Again, these aren't unpunishable, but they make the opponent's job harder, and do a degree, the fair can be used for a gradual approach somewhat safely, but don't swing if it won't hit.

Grounded options can be great to deal with the opponent's jump, but be sure you have enough room for whatever you choose to actually come out, and try not to whiff. If they're jumping towards you, and not overshooting, it's usually easier to just dd grab, but vs in place aerial walls or retreating aerials, it's basically asking to let Marth throw out a move with more start up but more range, because they're not threatening to interrupt the start up. For example, if Sheik is doing AC fairs, or Falcon is nairing in place, if you're not in range, or won't be immediately, then rather than shield, if you aren't already, or dash away, you can just... Jab, uptilt, ftilt, or even fsmash. Jab's obviously not very good on hit at lower percents, but at least they can't CC from the air. Fsmash is the laggiest, and so worst to miss with, but if you're confident in spacing, you only have to worry about an air dodge (and this isn't even always the case). So the intermediate option is to throw out a tilt, but of course, you can also go for tipper aerials and drift in response to their launch. At lower percents try to drift so they can't mash out an attack and hit you, at higher, try to follow them and press advantage.

This doesn't just apply to aerials, but can be seen as better vs them due to how motion can be influenced as hitboxes are coming out and present from the air, but any move with a tight window to come in and punish the hitbox for whiffing can be beaten by just using your own hitbox that beats it concurrently. You need to be doing a stronger move to beat grounded moved this way, however, and their options are more variable and harder to respond to from the ground. End lag is basically set, however, so for these, it's best to get that exact spacing you won't get hit, then come in after, usually.

The best way to deal with shield is to simply not be in range for any OoS option to threaten you (or at least not in such a way you can't react to and punish), then be as close as possible to best respond to whatever they do. Of course, the longer you do nothing the more time they have to realize what the safest escape option is if they know your plan, and if you're focusing on being in that perfect safe position, you're making it harder on yourself to respond to what they actually do before you get there.

So, to more proactively deal with shields, obvious options are to grab, and do a fully spaced dtilt. Of course, the grab can be dodged, and the dtilt, even if an unstaled tipper hitting on the 9th frame, still has extremely strict types of punishes that can be done vs a buffered roll back from say, Falco even with perfect reactions or foresight of what the opponent will do (you can't grab Falco for this, but a WD tipper fsmash can hit before he could bring his shield back up). Shield DI in, too, makes most "safe" attacks punishable in some way. To try to mix up this tactic, nairing through the opponent suddenly brings a move usually thought of as unsafe and bad vs shields to be one of the better tactics. Of course, rather than wait and watch, or play this mini-game that looks like something of a mix between RPS and a game of chicken, you can simply act first.

This is a place for borderline, if not outright preemptive grabs to come into play, only spaced. On approach, while stopping when you see the shield and waiting is best, if you shield stop grab, or jump ready to fair or nair, you cover all sorts of options, or at the least do a better job not getting punished. You can fair any attempt to move forward, and nair will also cover most forms pretty well, if you drift appropriately, and both punish spotdodge. If you grab and they spotdodge, the options they have that can punish you for missing tend to be very limited, and DIable or CCable. Shield stopping outside of your range to grab them so you can punish them for reaching is also great. Grab their shield grab, do an aerial on a spotdodge or attempt to move forward, wavedash after a roll away. That won't allow you to punish a wavedash back, however. For that, you basically need to not have gone into shield.

So I've said a lot about uses and counters to aerial walling from both sides, and one of the options I've alluded to can even beat ground walling if executed well enough. Shielding is best beaten by waiting I said, while I was talking a lot about the dangers of spotdodge, and how positioning one's self to throw out attacks is good, grab is still the next best thing. So, run up-shield, + Marth's amazing grab range, logically helps you deal with a number of attempts to wall you out, but also gives you room to deal with other options including the opponent shielding.

Dashing towards the opponent in neutral generally leads to them trying to interrupt your advance by throwing out a move, or going further back to try to catch you at the end of it. So of course, run up shield goes against this mentality of urgency and danger, if they try to interrupt you, they may have just fallen into a trap. If they dash back, well, you might not get a direct punish, but you can still try to track their movement. You can wavedash out of shield at any time. More importantly, however, them dashing back means you get stage position.

Now as it's been presented thus far, shielding appears to be a powerful tool, and it is, though limitations have been mentioned when discussing frame commitment to movement. Still, if executed correctly, it beats all sorts of forms of attempts to wall, if done out of a run, the opponent moves forward in shield. Combine this with the fact is comes out frame 1, and they can just keep moving towards you if you dash back, it becomes apparent that just waiting it out might not be the thing you want to always do vs approaching shield. So what can you do if even a dtilt isn't safe, and other ground moves become extraordinarily unsafe, and exceedingly diffciult to space? There's so many variables that can affect Marth's spacing sensitive moves and make them not work out how you might want on hitting the opponent, and it's even worse vs their shield, so perhaps you should go for an option where spacing is actually irrelevant as long as it actually hits, explicitly beats shield, and minimizes opportunities for any type of DI?

Only one move even comes close to meeting any of that description above: grab. Yes, just timing a grab works fine, but pivot grab is so much more powerful. In the same way that dashing towards the opponent creates some kind of threat they tend to respond to pre-emptively, or set themselves up for later steps, dashing back makes the position where the opponent can hit you from even harder to determine. They continue moving forward, possibly only expecting a single dash back, and spacing for you to come back at a certain point to try to hit you again, or they're ready to spotdodge after the shield comes up and they see you dash back. That's fine, you don't have to let them do any of that. You dash back. Once they're in range, you immediately turn around and pivot grab. If you miss, it's almost certainly because they didn't get close enough. Not that big a deal, but still, you shouldn't miss. If they try to continue chasing you, they have no hope to react, and even if you're doing it at pre-determined spacings for them to stop at, you're more likely to come out on top.

Not further elaborating on things like dashing forward and dashing past because this thing is already long enough, lol
Short(er) ver:
To deal with people trying to stay out of the range of an approach by retreating, poke safely, and toward the back of say, a dash back (see: dtilt), or otherwise aim your approach for a later position: dash further for the grab, for instance. Alternatively, space yourself to not go to far forward on a whiff: shield stopping.

Every attack can simply be waited out, as can shielding, but as attacks drift further from you punishing off of end lag becomes harder, and using less "safe" options with more range (grounded non-dtilt tilts, jab, fsmash) becomes more effective. Your goals using such moves in response to attacks are to make sure you have enough time for them to come out, and that you don't miss. These grounded options are also much better if the opponent is airborne.

Shielding is powerful, but loses to waiting, and direct retaliation out of shield isn't necessarily guaranteed or easy. If you have room to do so, wavedash out of shield to reposition. Shield DI to distance one's self from an opponent lowers threat of mixups from them, DI inwards makes punishing something unsafe easier.

Dashing forward tends to generate responses to try to interrupt your approach or retreat to punish a whiff. Out of a dash, options already mentioned allow you to deal with both, but a pre-emptive run-up shield means gaining position vs the dash back, while generally allowing one to beat interruption attempts, though this isn't always easy.

The main counter to run up-shield, in this case, is to pivot grab, which also works excellently vs most approaches, including running shine. You just grab such that they're about to enter grab's range, which would be effective even if Marth didn't outrange most of these approaches with grab anyway. The dash back also makes it so they can't just pick a set position to throw out their move hoping it will hit. Main approaches this doesn't work vs are the quick ranged pokes, like Marth's own dtilt.

To deal with said "poke" approaches, get closer, or shield DI in. Most forms that aren't Marth's dtilt (i.e. Fox's jab) are also really bad vs crouch cancel. Otherwise, don't give them backwards motion to aim for, and interrupt them in place or advancing, or don't give them room to go into full-run or for wavedash forward to be safe.

If you jump, try not to swing if it won't hit. Creating walls in place or retreating is "safer" in a sense, but is vulnerable to the types of tactics I mentioned beating it earlier, of course. Advancing with fair should be very slow as you don't want to give them an easy out of shield punish, and you have to swing when they actually get in range.
Dash shield stop then jump or grab works well vs shielding in a certain position.

Refer back to rules 1-5 above because you should be thinking about those than probably any of this.

While aerials tend to be "safer" retreating, they can also become safer by crossing the opponent up, particularly nair. Dashing through the opponent can be good for similar reasons, but you're also running into range to be hit, often times. If you just hit with something exceptionally close to the opponent's shield, this is often better than dashing away, particularly vs another Marth or a Sheik, as far as top tiers go.
 
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