Marth/Lucina ditto with Camping opponent

[Octavium]

I know I'm not such a great player from a strategic perspective, but I'm quite fluid at the game's controls, I pull off some ATs quite fluently and am pretty good at edge guarding.

But since I'm always playing with my friend who always simply play fully offensive (Hes practically as good as our local tournament winners), he never rolls when its unsafe, nor does he camp because we play friendlies everyday. I have incredible trouble punishing roll spams and camping opponents.

But yesterday I've been playing some guy in friendlies who wasn't as fluid at playing Marth, but kept camping and waiting for me to approach. He would constantly Roll and wait into well timed Counters or F-smash. I would constantly lose.

I tried poking with SH into a retreating F-air, but that was too easy to shield, and sometimes I got way too close for comfort of that counter hitbox. SH into shield breaker fell victim to counter. Dash grabs would be back rolled into a F-smash.

Whenever I would just start camping for myself, he would just wait patiently for me to approach him again. Do you guys have any tips when dealing with this frustrating as hell matchup?

 

[M@v]

If he's camping, don't approach if you have the lead. Otherwise, approach and try waiting for him to throw out the first move, and try to predict what its going to be. Punish him for trying to punish. In all likelihood, he is just waiting for you to attack him, then he spot dodges, counters, or shields, and finally punishes you with an attack. You said he always rolled back into an fsmash when you would go for a dash grab, right? Run right at him, and either throw out a counter or shield slightly after you would throw out the grab (to account for the time it takes him to roll), or keep running at him and dash attack him as he rolls back. Follow it up from there. Lucina Dittos/Lucina vs Marth involves a lot of reading your opponent and punishing his bad habbits; its true in any matchup but even more so here because its the same movesets. Think "What move could I do to punish that?" That will work for both sides most likely. If he uses shield a lot, don't be afraid to throw out shieldbreakers. Its even better in this game than it was in brawl. It makes it so easy to break someone's shield if they hold it any longer than a split second.

 

[IzE]

Is his playstyle completely reactionary? I suggest walking or empty SH to test his reading and passiveness.

Walking is considered neutral and allows you to utilize your entire moveset, as opposed to running which leads into dash attacks, dash grabs, and higher momentum aerials. Walking will provide the benefits of footies, which should help condition his passiveness or limit his movement options.

If he is camping realize his space is limited between you and the ledge behind him. When you run he see's your aggression and knows that you will attempt moves that are predictable, or at worst for him, unsafe on block (shield grabbing your aerials). Condition his passiveness to bait his reactions into aggression or limit his movement towards the ledge. Walk up and throw a d tilt; it's relatively quick and will test his reactions, although remember you can succumb these same techniques.

Does he shield?
A turtling opponent with a diminished shield faces the repercussions of being poked out, but Lucina's blade properties in conjunction with shield breaker makes it devastating. I suggest letting him hold his shield a few times, this allows to see how reactive he will be to his own options (hold, roll, dodge, dropping guard). Shield breaker can be effective both aggressively and conservatively given the conditions of your opponents mindset when they decide to shield.

Spot dodge/spam dodges?
D-tilt is respectably fast and safe and will catch him with multiple uses. F-tilt if you read multiple dodges, but FSMASH for yolo.

Rolls Away?
Him retreating to the ledge shouldn't put you in range or near as a punishable situation when recovering from D-tilt and should allow you react to any follow up.

Roll toward?
I don't believe Marth really wants to be near Lucina's feet. Utilt can cover behind you but can be tricky, pivot grab if he shields out of the roll, and UPSMASH for OMG DAMAGE read. Marth being above you allows you to utilize Uair and snuff his spacing into a juggle. He much rather airdodge at your first attack, F-air if he becomes predictable to carry him across the stage.

Counters?
This comes out from predictability and it's effectiveness is determined on how mixed your approaches become.

Try to feign your offense by running aggressively and empty SH/SHFF while retreating outside his range, then walk away(not far). Note his reaction mentally. Did he attempt to gain lost ground or did he remain in position. Things to consider about your opponent's reaction.

Does he shield? - Looking for the safest punish, ie shield grab
Spotdodge?- Reading grabs or aggressive aerial/approach
Roll away?- He's closer to the edge(or on it), he isn't as confident in reading your movement, playing it safe.
Roll toward?- Repositioning while you commit to something laggy.
Counter? -Scouting aggression; Seems like a better option considering his range vs you attempting a throw.
Defensive Attack? -Good, realizes you are bringing more to the table. (covering space; tilts or smash)
Offensive Attack? - You walked away, he's vulnerable, but will probably retreat into his shell.

Marth wants to land tippers, but always keep in mind his sour spots are nothing to scoff at and the fact he can still kill you relatively earlier makes trading with him an uphill battle. This is how I see your opponent's defense in a layman and some options may only work in a theoretical sense, but part of the game is conditioning and adapting to one's play style.

 

[Octavium]

If he's camping, don't approach if you have the lead. Otherwise, approach and try waiting for him to throw out the first move, and try to predict what its going to be. Punish him for trying to punish. In all likelihood, he is just waiting for you to attack him, then he spot dodges, counters, or shields, and finally punishes you with an attack. You said he always rolled back into an fsmash when you would go for a dash grab, right? Run right at him, and either throw out a counter or shield slightly after you would throw out the grab (to account for the time it takes him to roll), or keep running at him and dash attack him as he rolls back. Follow it up from there. Lucina Dittos/Lucina vs Marth involves a lot of reading your opponent and punishing his bad habbits; its true in any matchup but even more so here because its the same movesets. Think "What move could I do to punish that?" That will work for both sides most likely. If he uses shield a lot, don't be afraid to throw out shieldbreakers. Its even better in this game than it was in brawl. It makes it so easy to break someone's shield if they hold it any longer than a split second.

Thanks for the Tips, Its going to come in handy.

 

[Octavium]

Is his playstyle completely reactionary? I suggest walking or empty SH to test his reading and passiveness.

Walking is considered neutral and allows you to utilize your entire moveset, as opposed to running which leads into dash attacks, dash grabs, and higher momentum aerials. Walking will provide the benefits of footies, which should help condition his passiveness or limit his movement options.

If he is camping realize his space is limited between you and the ledge behind him. When you run he see's your aggression and knows that you will attempt moves that are predictable, or at worst for him, unsafe on block (shield grabbing your aerials). Condition his passiveness to bait his reactions into aggression or limit his movement towards the ledge. Walk up and throw a d tilt; it's relatively quick and will test his reactions, although remember you can succumb these same techniques.

Does he shield?
A turtling opponent with a diminished shield faces the repercussions of being poked out, but Lucina's blade properties in conjunction with shield breaker makes it devastating. I suggest letting him hold his shield a few times, this allows to see how reactive he will be to his own options (hold, roll, dodge, dropping guard). Shield breaker can be effective both aggressively and conservatively given the conditions of your opponents mindset when they decide to shield.

Spot dodge/spam dodges?
D-tilt is respectably fast and safe and will catch him with multiple uses. F-tilt if you read multiple dodges, but FSMASH for yolo.

Rolls Away?
Him retreating to the ledge shouldn't put you in range or near as a punishable situation when recovering from D-tilt and should allow you react to any follow up.

Roll toward?
I don't believe Marth really wants to be near Lucina's feet. Utilt can cover behind you but can be tricky, pivot grab if he shields out of the roll, and UPSMASH for OMG DAMAGE read. Marth being above you allows you to utilize Uair and snuff his spacing into a juggle. He much rather airdodge at your first attack, F-air if he becomes predictable to carry him across the stage.

Counters?
This comes out from predictability and it's effectiveness is determined on how mixed your approaches become.

Try to feign your offense by running aggressively and empty SH/SHFF while retreating outside his range, then walk away(not far). Note his reaction mentally. Did he attempt to gain lost ground or did he remain in position. Things to consider about your opponent's reaction.

Does he shield? - Looking for the safest punish, ie shield grab
Spotdodge?- Reading grabs or aggressive aerial/approach
Roll away?- He's closer to the edge(or on it), he isn't as confident in reading your movement, playing it safe.
Roll toward?- Repositioning while you commit to something laggy.
Counter? -Scouting aggression; Seems like a better option considering his range vs you attempting a throw.
Defensive Attack? -Good, realizes you are bringing more to the table. (covering space; tilts or smash)
Offensive Attack? - You walked away, he's vulnerable, but will probably retreat into his shell.

Marth wants to land tippers, but always keep in mind his sour spots are nothing to scoff at and the fact he can still kill you relatively earlier makes trading with him an uphill battle. This is how I see your opponent's defense in a layman and some options may only work in a theoretical sense, but part of the game is conditioning and adapting to one's play style.

This is beautiful, really shed some light on the match-up, very well constructed. You even snuck in some great punish Ideas, Thank you!