Marth Is A Low Tier

[stixie]

My only question is: why does Nintendo INSIST on Marth being one of the worst characters in the game???? If Marth had the above hitbox GARBAGE he'd be the best character in the game. Just for FYI's sake this sweetspotted for Roy's FSmash.

Why can't Marth's Side B tipper like this? Or Marth's FSmash??

This is the most garbage crap I've ever seen. People are like... "nintendo just wants be be safe with Marth buffs so he doesn't become overpowered" and then I see hits like the above image and immediately say that you're full of horse manure.

Like 90% of Marth's tippers could be REALLY relaxed and given more breathing room (specials as well as normals) and he'd end up somewhere in high tier.... No excuse Nintendo... no excuse.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Every character is Viable in Ult son.

 

[stixie]

That's not the point. Sure you can randomly beat Joker with Little Mac but the the trouble you have to go through is a LOT (and I mean a LOT) higher than the Joker player.

That's the point of a tier list. Marth is INCONSISTENT. This is the reason he's bad. Contrast Marth with Roy. Roy also has a sweetspot on his sword but it pretty much ALWAYS connects. You have to REALLY screw up to get a sour spot with Roy (as is shown by the screenshot above). Marth on the other hand... it feels like getting a sweet spot is like winning the lottery sometimes. There are some really good moves (like nair, ftilt, up tilt, shield break) but the amount of awful moves that never tipper unless the opponent doesn't know how to play is basically everything else. And even getting a tipper on some moves (like bair) doesn't give you much of a reward. Like it's a well known fact that Marth tipper bair is just a tiny bit stronger than Lucina's bair. And don't even get me started on Roy's bair. Why is Marth dash attack so awful?? That move ought to kill 20% earlier than it does. How about Marth's awful counter... or fair that pretty much only kills if you're offstage. I LOVE Marth but they pretty much made him a non factor coming from Sm4sh in any kind of tournament setting.

Point of my post is the amount of work you put in with say... Joker, Roy, Lucina, or Pika to get a kill is probably half the work you have to put in with Marth. Consistency. That's why Marth is bad.

 

[A_Kae]

Consistency issues/tipper difficulty are largely overstated.

It's certainly a reason why Marth is worse, harder to play, and less of an attractive option for competitors compared to his descendant, but it's simply not as big a problem as to say it's like the lottery. Dancing Blade/fsmash/usmash are all 'hard' tippers (and rewarded for it, stronger than roy's! making them easier would be potentially dangerous), but pretty much everything else is fine/good enough/not dramatically bad. Not 'will never tipper'. And blade hits aren't worthless, used with intention to maximize adv state and combos.

Bair and fair are rather unrewarding, comparatively, yeah, and dash attack has been trash brawl onward. Not sure why you bring up counter, it's the same as Lucina's (minor animation/hitbox differences aside, favors marth anyways) and counters as a class of move tend to be bad. Ftilt/utilt/nair are all farily reliable to tipper and very strong for what they are; they’re good moves like you said. Imo you have enough 'consistent' tippers to get what you need when you need often enough for Marth not to be garbage.

In your image, you have to remember that kill screens and hitlag frames show a damage animation that's not actually where the character was when they got hit. In this example, Byleths' legs were much closer to Roy when the hit occurred. Watch the video back at a slower speed and you can see. You can also look at Roy's actual fsmash hitbox and know that there's something else going on. You can see the opposite sometimes with Marth, tippering what looks like really close, but because of the animation change on hit, does make sense if you look closely.

--

So what I'm trying to say here (I'm a bit sleep deprived atm, this might have made less sense than I want), I suppose, is that you're exaggerating a bit here. Understandable, Marth can be kinda frustrating in this game compared to other swordies getting rewarded more/more consistently and more easily. But on his own merits? He's really not that bad. Not one of the worst.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Consistency issues/tipper difficulty are largely overstated.

It's certainly a reason why Marth is worse, harder to play, and less of an attractive option for competitors compared to his descendant, but it's simply not as big a problem as to say it's like the lottery. Dancing Blade/fsmash/usmash are all 'hard' tippers (and rewarded for it, stronger than roy's! making them easier would be potentially dangerous), but pretty much everything else is fine/good enough/not dramatically bad. Not 'will never tipper'. And blade hits aren't worthless, used with intention to maximize adv state and combos.

Bair and fair are rather unrewarding, comparatively, yeah, and dash attack has been trash brawl onward. Not sure why you bring up counter, it's the same as Lucina's (minor animation/hitbox differences aside, favors marth anyways) and counters as a class of move tend to be bad. Ftilt/utilt/nair are all farily reliable to tipper and very strong for what they are; they’re good moves like you said. Imo you have enough 'consistent' tippers to get what you need when you need often enough for Marth not to be garbage.

In your image, you have to remember that kill screens and hitlag frames show a damage animation that's not actually where the character was when they got hit. In this example, Byleths' legs were much closer to Roy when the hit occurred. Watch the video back at a slower speed and you can see. You can also look at Roy's actual fsmash hitbox and know that there's something else going on. You can see the opposite sometimes with Marth, tippering what looks like really close, but because of the animation change on hit, does make sense if you look closely.

--

So what I'm trying to say here (I'm a bit sleep deprived atm, this might have made less sense than I want), I suppose, is that you're exaggerating a bit here. Understandable, Marth can be kinda frustrating in this game compared to other swordies getting rewarded more/more consistently and more easily. But on his own merits? He's really not that bad. Not one of the worst.

Its also worth nothing that Roys hit boxes are more generous because he has to get into the “danger zone” for many matchups, and is at risk due to his design as a brawler swordie. Marth wishes to stay just out of that range, so the punishment should be worse when he fails to keep the opponent out of his space.

 

[stixie]

Its also worth nothing that Roys hit boxes are more generous because he has to get into the “danger zone” for many matchups, and is at risk due to his design as a brawler swordie. Marth wishes to stay just out of that range, so the punishment should be worse when he fails to keep the opponent out of his space.

The problem here is that Ultimate is so fast paced that it's nearly impossible to keep a super fast or a small character away from you. In Brawl and Sm4sh it was easier because the games were slower paced. Melee was a different animal as Marth's hitboxes were a whole lot more generous in that game.

Roy and Marth have one BIG BIG difference though. If your opponent is in the sourspot box of Marth's swing it's a sourspot no matter if the sweet spot hits or not. With Roy it doesn't matter. As long as that sweetspot touches your toenail you're taking all of that hit. This is a BIG DEAL in a fast paced game such as ultimate.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

The problem here is that Ultimate is so fast paced that it's nearly impossible to keep a super fast or a small character away from you. In Brawl and Sm4sh it was easier because the games were slower paced. Melee was a different animal as Marth's hitboxes were a whole lot more generous in that game.

Roy and Marth have one BIG BIG difference though. If your opponent is in the sourspot box of Marth's swing it's a sourspot no matter if the sweet spot hits or not. With Roy it doesn't matter. As long as that sweetspot touches your toenail you're taking all of that hit. This is a BIG DEAL in a fast paced game such as ultimate.

If Roy had the same weakness as Marth where the sour spot took priority over the sweet spot, he would be neaRly unplayable. Most sweet spot hits you see have sourspots also connecting. Make the sour spot take priority, and Roy would almost never get sweet spots. Marth needs the weakness to be balanced, as he would then get tippers WAY too consistently to be fair or balanced if the sweet spots took priority. Especially considering that he would get the same reward for letting the opponent violate his space than if he spaced.

 

[Kirijo Nyte]

I enjoyed this post, I laughed because it read like a buff-Marth campaign.

I'm inclined to agree with you but I'm curious as to what you think on what people think as it pertains to Marth. In the previous title people thought Marth was better than Lucina, in this it's Lucina over Marth. I take it you think the common view of Lucina>Marth due to consistency is justified. Would you say it was enough for people to justifiably say Marth = or > Lucina if it was mostly reverted, his 'nerfs'? What about all? Jab1>ftilt would be enough to make him reign again, or not even then in this engine?

One of the biggest things that makes me sad with Marth is that it's an awful thing for any competitive or skillful game to remove skill in order to balance. While sometimes it must be done, usually it should be the last resort and even then you could remove skill in one area but then increase it in other. Across games, he went from being combo heavy, to having a reliably connecting DB but didn't kill, (the 3rd forward hit in melee packed a punch that could kill, it was awesome) in brawl, and he sort of looks the same but doesn't feel the same usually in worse ways- can't chain grab, grab is so much weaker it's laughable, dair spike is so few frames but a laggy move, very weak compared to how it use to be, DB is the most flexible, (timing) it's been but probably the worst version it has ever been, fsmash feels neutered, (not sure if that's actually true) his neutral b being changed, for good and bad. I'm really fond of the old two handed swing. He's a very different character than he use to be. That's one of the bigger things that makes me sad, the over-reliance and neutral game and less combos.

Although I do like the shield breaker being changed so you can angle it, and the DB flexibility so you could do it very fast if you wanted is cool, DB just fails to connect too often, it's too laggy, (db 1) and I suspect overall you are right, I think the tipper should be a little more. Between the two I'd opt for more combos, though, more hitstun, maybe, and then just like in melee you could space for a tipper better.

Still, I do feel ambivalent about it. I'm inclined to agree because Marth doesn't get very good placement results and it's all Lucina, but, would he if Lucina didn't exist? I think a big problem with Marth and 'getting good' at him is something we can acknowledge at the fore front, with Lucina, you have to remember 1 knock back for all her moves at every % for every character, in simple math it'd look like this, knock back = KB,

KB x % x character x DI

We can also look at shield interactions, with Lucina, you need to know the 1 thing

With Marth you have to add sour spot and tippers, so you see how you just doubled everything you need to know about the characters and attack interactions. So being good at Marth means you have to know a lot more and react/predict accordingly, (like listening for tipper sounds)

Then there's the results. MKleo, one of the best players still can't reliably win with Marth, I do think this speaks on Marth not being that good, but that may not be entirely truthful, humor me, what if Mkleo and most people just had a sort of mental block, and didn't lab out, or give up too easily on Marth due to the frustration, thinking he was inconsistent, the worse of his fire embloomers house even if he wasn't? For instance, DB is still inconsistent on Lucina, you can make it semi-consistent on both of them, but it still will knock people away from the full combo a lot of times. This may be unfair, but I always viewed MKleo as a really good player who secondaried Marth because he made him work. IMO, when he was picking up Marth there was those that had more loyalty/determination to furthering the character, and I daresay those that were better. It's just that you always had to give it to Mkleo, his neutral game is some of the best in the business, and Marcina are heavily neutral-based.

I'm really curious what you and others think Marth would need for buffs that would bring him to the top without being annoyingly OP, or too simply too powerful. It's beyond my skill to say, as I do not perform at a higher level, and I'm rather impressed when I say Mkleo play Marth, so I don't think it's a lot, just a little, probably. . . maybe.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I enjoyed this post, I laughed because it read like a buff-Marth campaign.

I'm inclined to agree with you but I'm curious as to what you think on what people think as it pertains to Marth. In the previous title people thought Marth was better than Lucina, in this it's Lucina over Marth. I take it you think the common view of Lucina>Marth due to consistency is justified. Would you say it was enough for people to justifiably say Marth = or > Lucina if it was mostly reverted, his 'nerfs'? What about all? Jab1>ftilt would be enough to make him reign again, or not even then in this engine?

One of the biggest things that makes me sad with Marth is that it's an awful thing for any competitive or skillful game to remove skill in order to balance. While sometimes it must be done, usually it should be the last resort and even then you could remove skill in one area but then increase it in other. Across games, he went from being combo heavy, to having a reliably connecting DB but didn't kill, (the 3rd forward hit in melee packed a punch that could kill, it was awesome) in brawl, and he sort of looks the same but doesn't feel the same usually in worse ways- can't chain grab, grab is so much weaker it's laughable, dair spike is so few frames but a laggy move, very weak compared to how it use to be, DB is the most flexible, (timing) it's been but probably the worst version it has ever been, fsmash feels neutered, (not sure if that's actually true) his neutral b being changed, for good and bad. I'm really fond of the old two handed swing. He's a very different character than he use to be. That's one of the bigger things that makes me sad, the over-reliance and neutral game and less combos.

Although I do like the shield breaker being changed so you can angle it, and the DB flexibility so you could do it very fast if you wanted is cool, DB just fails to connect too often, it's too laggy, (db 1) and I suspect overall you are right, I think the tipper should be a little more. Between the two I'd opt for more combos, though, more hitstun, maybe, and then just like in melee you could space for a tipper better.

Still, I do feel ambivalent about it. I'm inclined to agree because Marth doesn't get very good placement results and it's all Lucina, but, would he if Lucina didn't exist? I think a big problem with Marth and 'getting good' at him is something we can acknowledge at the fore front, with Lucina, you have to remember 1 knock back for all her moves at every % for every character, in simple math it'd look like this, knock back = KB,

KB x % x character x DI

We can also look at shield interactions, with Lucina, you need to know the 1 thing

With Marth you have to add sour spot and tippers, so you see how you just doubled everything you need to know about the characters and attack interactions. So being good at Marth means you have to know a lot more and react/predict accordingly, (like listening for tipper sounds)

Then there's the results. MKleo, one of the best players still can't reliably win with Marth, I do think this speaks on Marth not being that good, but that may not be entirely truthful, humor me, what if Mkleo and most people just had a sort of mental block, and didn't lab out, or give up too easily on Marth due to the frustration, thinking he was inconsistent, the worse of his fire embloomers house even if he wasn't? For instance, DB is still inconsistent on Lucina, you can make it semi-consistent on both of them, but it still will knock people away from the full combo a lot of times. This may be unfair, but I always viewed MKleo as a really good player who secondaried Marth because he made him work. IMO, when he was picking up Marth there was those that had more loyalty/determination to furthering the character, and I daresay those that were better. It's just that you always had to give it to Mkleo, his neutral game is some of the best in the business, and Marcina are heavily neutral-based.

I'm really curious what you and others think Marth would need for buffs that would bring him to the top without being annoyingly OP, or too simply too powerful. It's beyond my skill to say, as I do not perform at a higher level, and I'm rather impressed when I say Mkleo play Marth, so I don't think it's a lot, just a little, probably. . . maybe.

Is not the best dancing blade combo is forward>forward>up>forward to get the kill with the tipper? Or am I mixing that up with Roy?

 

[A_Kae]

Is not the best dancing blade combo is forward>forward>up>forward to get the kill with the tipper? Or am I mixing that up with Roy?

Marth will usually do f>f>f>f when starting up close and f>f>d>f when farther away. Third hit forward has really high kb, so it works well at pushing people into the tipper when up close, but farther away you need the lower knockback on the down hit to make it work.

And of course the rather thin tipper hitbox on 4f makes timing and practice and experience key to making the move work. More than anything else.

I'm really curious what you and others think Marth would need for buffs that would bring him to the top without being annoyingly OP, or too simply too powerful. It's beyond my skill to say, as I do not perform at a higher level, and I'm rather impressed when I say Mkleo play Marth, so I don't think it's a lot, just a little, probably. . . maybe.

IMO, small scaling buffs to a couple moves (tippers fair and uair, and blade fsmash and bair would be the ones I see as needing it the most) would be mostly enough. He doesn't need much (it's really just a matter of some numbers being a little off) to bring him to being reasonably and practically better for a dedicated and skilled player. Would still be harder and less consistent than Luci, but then that's how it should be. But I'm something of a Marth optimist and lots of people think a lot worse of him. I could see him need more. It almost certainly wouldn't reverse community perception of him.

 

[stixie]

If Roy had the same weakness as Marth where the sour spot took priority over the sweet spot, he would be neaRly unplayable. Most sweet spot hits you see have sourspots also connecting. Make the sour spot take priority, and Roy would almost never get sweet spots. Marth needs the weakness to be balanced, as he would then get tippers WAY too consistently to be fair or balanced if the sweet spots took priority. Especially considering that he would get the same reward for letting the opponent violate his space than if he spaced.

I know this. And yeah that would destroy Roy or make Marth OP I'm just commenting that Roy's boxes are VERY VERY generous in this game and Marth's are the exact opposite.

Is not the best dancing blade combo is forward>forward>up>forward to get the kill with the tipper? Or am I mixing that up with Roy?

Yeah that's Roy. Marth's tipper dancing blade is VERY HARD to hit. Mostly because the animation for the 4th side swing is WAY off. The tipper is actually past the dark red streak.

Marth Hitbox Image Not sure why my image won't upload but smashboards keeps saying oops something went wrong when embedding an image right now. Stupid. Sorry about that. Anyways this image is the reason Marth's DBlade 4 is super strange.

Anyways Marth's DBlade is actually stronger than Roy's just MUCH harder to hit.

IMO, small scaling buffs to a couple moves (tippers fair and uair, and blade fsmash and bair would be the ones I see as needing it the most) would be mostly enough. He doesn't need much (it's really just a matter of some numbers being a little off) to bring him to being reasonably and practically better for a dedicated and skilled player. Would still be harder and less consistent than Luci, but then that's how it should be. But I'm something of a Marth optimist and lots of people think a lot worse of him. I could see him need more. It almost certainly wouldn't reverse community perception of him.

I agree with this. I think tip bair needs to have more knockback. I think dancing blade needs maybe just an animation adjustment so your mind knows where the tipper is. I dunno on that one. That move could make Marth broken if you actually buffed it. Fsmash & upsmash need their tippers relaxed a few pixels. Tipper dtilt needs to not send people so far away because following up with a tech chase is near frame perfect timing because of how far it sends people at 100% and above. Tip shield break needs to INSTANTLY pop a shield. Only if it tippers. That would make people respect Marth at that distance a LOT more and not just shield his tipper hits. I feel Marth has the worst counter in the game (well ok maybe Palu has the worst but Marth's is down there). I dunno what to do with that move but there are so many times I hit a counter and Marth's swing is just a wiff.

Conclusion is I think just a few real easy adjustments could make Marth a scary character without making him busted.

 

[A_Kae]

I agree with this. I think tip bair needs to have more knockback. I think dancing blade needs maybe just an animation adjustment so your mind knows where the tipper is. I dunno on that one. That move could make Marth broken if you actually buffed it. Fsmash & upsmash need their tippers relaxed a few pixels. Tipper dtilt needs to not send people so far away because following up with a tech chase is near frame perfect timing because of how far it sends people at 100% and above. Tip shield break needs to INSTANTLY pop a shield. Only if it tippers. That would make people respect Marth at that distance a LOT more and not just shield his tipper hits. I feel Marth has the worst counter in the game (well ok maybe Palu has the worst but Marth's is down there). I dunno what to do with that move but there are so many times I hit a counter and Marth's swing is just a wiff.

Conclusion is I think just a few real easy adjustments could make Marth a scary character without making him busted.

I kinda go back and forth on tipper bair kb. On one hand, yeah it's a very unfavorable comparison with Lucina/Roy/Chom (killing a bit less than 15% earlier than Luci, about 10% later than Roy, and like 3% earlier than Chom, with spacing requirements on top!), but on the other? Kills under 100 at the edge, 130 center stage (roughly, before di), stronger than ftilt, barely weaker than dsmash. It's quite strong overall and within Marth's kit. Damage is pretty bad, though. 9/12.5 while Lucina is doing 11.875 is just silly. Should get 0.5% more at least.

An animation adjustment on db would be great, the fact the tipper starts past the end of the sword trail is just absurd and screws a lot of people up with the move. If it were to be made easier to hit a kb nerf would be necessary, would be broken like you say otherwise and really overshadow the rest of our moves which isn't good. Dancing blade as a a whole (not 4f) should be easier to tipper. Doesn't actually matter but the first 3 hits have tiny tippers and Marth ends up doing less damage from them as a result. Really just a minor thing, but it annoys me.

Fsmash could do with a small ease buff, maybe just on F11 (or small buff overall, a bit more just on that frame)? That's the only place it's actually bad on, might need a small kb reduction to keep it fair, idk. Usmash ought to be a lot easier, it's small and only usable in certain, restrictive situations and super risky too.

Disagree on dtilt, tipper knockback works well for setting up techchases/knockdowns starting at around 55% which is great for low percent fsmash/db kills. For higher percent stuff, I'd rather have the sourspot have a little bit more kb so it knocked down earlier. Does tumble around 120% right now.

Insta-shieldbreaks would get super toxic and broken. Tipper ought to actually do something more related to shield breaking, but one-shotting is too much. 3-5 more bonus shield damage would be enough imo to make it meaningful without going too far. Shield breaks are a tricky thing balance-wise; it's better to have sb a bit too weak than too strong.

Counter sucks and hitbox somehow manages to suck even while being enormous. Would be nice if it was switch to using a static hitbox like most other counters instead of attached to the swing. At least we don't have to deal with a sourspot like roy/chrom though, huh?

Of course, there's a fair chance that there won't be any more patches, and even if there were, Marth likely wouldn't get anything.

 

[Kirijo Nyte]

Is not the best dancing blade combo is forward>forward>up>forward to get the kill with the tipper? Or am I mixing that up with Roy?

I agree with what A_Kae said on DB for kills > > v > and > > > > tends to work best most of the time, with forwards being used closer, which as far as I can tell, is mostly how Mr E and Mkleo practiced to get their tippers on db 4 forward, and when both of those don't work, (or you want to gamble, or they keep popping up) some sort of variant like forward>forward>up>forward like you said works, but that's part of the inconsistency, as good as some of these marcinas are, (not to say they have everything figured out) DB is still rolling the dice at higher %s to kill, people will just pop out of the combo. I love Roy's DB, double edge dance, it feels so much better to use. Going forwards with marth/lucina I'd expect it to be kind of like Kazuya combos, if people want to develop to their further ends, meta-game DB, they can, but it's going to be painstaking learning under which niche circumstances you want to do > ^ instead of > > or > v due to knockback and character weights at higher %, and I still think there'd be a question of unreliability, it just wouldn't be as bad

 

[Rain0]

Is this about Marth's hitboxes or Roy's hitboxes?

It's strange to see Marth suffer in this game, because Roy had to suffer in every game he was in prior to Ultimate.


Honestly though, Marth is not that terrible, he can actually do stuff unlike some Low/Bottom tiers

 

[Rain0]

Every character is Viable in Ult son.

Yup.

Even the lowest of the low characters are viable, that's how balanced this game is

 

[stixie]

Disagree on dtilt, tipper knockback works well for setting up techchases/knockdowns starting at around 55% which is great for low percent fsmash/db kills. For higher percent stuff, I'd rather have the sourspot have a little bit more kb so it knocked down earlier. Does tumble around 120% right now.

I've maybe killed someone at 55% off a dtilt tech chase into tipper fsmash once or twice in the lifetime of this game. That is WAY WAY too hard to hit for that move to stay that way. DB is easier of course but fsmash is REALLY hard to connect on a tech chase. Dsmash is easier too.

Anywho... the reason I want it to not send as far is because of tipper uptilt which kills reliably on tech chase pretty dang early. MKLeo has showcased this quite a few times. You dtilt into tumble run up uptilt. It auto tippers when they're on the ground. So there's the problem. Sour dtilt tumbles at the right location but at really high percents where as tipper dtilt tumbles way earlier but doesn't set up into an uptilt at say 115% or so. It knocks them too far away. MKLeo has also stated this in a stream. The easier dtilt tipper that they gave him in the last Marth buff patch screwed up dtilt tech chases because you're actually trying NOT to tipper. It's stupid.

Insta-shieldbreaks would get super toxic and broken. Tipper ought to actually do something more related to shield breaking, but one-shotting is too much. 3-5 more bonus shield damage would be enough imo to make it meaningful without going too far. Shield breaks are a tricky thing balance-wise; it's better to have sb a bit too weak than too strong.

Maybe they would be but I don't think so, it MUST be a tipper which is fairly difficult (admittedly shield break isn't a bad tipper but it's still not easy).
A lot of characters have NEAR instant shield breaks. It would just make characters respect Marth at that tipper range and not just shield all those fair/nairs.

This isn't something that I'm super pulling for it would just make people respect him at that distance.

Counter sucks and hitbox somehow manages to suck even while being enormous. Would be nice if it was switch to using a static hitbox like most other counters instead of attached to the swing. At least we don't have to deal with a sourspot like roy/chrom though, huh?

Yeah. I have no answers for this move. It's funny how many commentators make fun of this move though LOL. Oh well.

Of course, there's a fair chance that there won't be any more patches, and even if there were, Marth likely wouldn't get anything.

Last Patch

Is this about Marth's hitboxes or Roy's hitboxes?

It's strange to see Marth suffer in this game, because Roy had to suffer in every game he was in prior to Ultimate.


Honestly though, Marth is not that terrible, he can actually do stuff unlike some Low/Bottom tiers

Really it's about Marth and the night/day difference between him and Roy. They're both suppose to be the same TYPE of character with sweet spot hits but Marth got the HUGE short end of that. A character that I love to play... a lot. Marth is low tier because characters are constantly living to 200% against him. It's not because he can't deal damage. He just has to land a raw tipper most of the time to get that kill. Good players just don't give you that opportunity. Like take Byleth for example: Byleth has a tipper on the spear moves (fsmash is a great example) but they nearly ALWAYS connect. I mean... to miss you have to REALLY screw up your spacing. For Marth it's... I'm perfectly spaced and STILL got the sour spot. It's just frustrating.





Another move I'd like changed is up b. There's a whole section of Marth's sword on the first active frame that doesn't have a hitbox. Add a tipper hitbox to that for the grounded move. That would also serve to distinguish him from Lucina.

 

[Sucumbio]

Martha tough to use Lucy does everything faster and without regard for tipper so things like dtilt-fs confirms are later in marths game unlike lucina who can throw out tons of pokes.... Marth is bait and punish with utilt ftilt being really effective against poorly spaced approaches.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I've maybe killed someone at 55% off a dtilt tech chase into tipper fsmash once or twice in the lifetime of this game. That is WAY WAY too hard to hit for that move to stay that way. DB is easier of course but fsmash is REALLY hard to connect on a tech chase. Dsmash is easier too.

Anywho... the reason I want it to not send as far is because of tipper uptilt which kills reliably on tech chase pretty dang early. MKLeo has showcased this quite a few times. You dtilt into tumble run up uptilt. It auto tippers when they're on the ground. So there's the problem. Sour dtilt tumbles at the right location but at really high percents where as tipper dtilt tumbles way earlier but doesn't set up into an uptilt at say 115% or so. It knocks them too far away. MKLeo has also stated this in a stream. The easier dtilt tipper that they gave him in the last Marth buff patch screwed up dtilt tech chases because you're actually trying NOT to tipper. It's stupid.



Maybe they would be but I don't think so, it MUST be a tipper which is fairly difficult (admittedly shield break isn't a bad tipper but it's still not easy).
A lot of characters have NEAR instant shield breaks. It would just make characters respect Marth at that tipper range and not just shield all those fair/nairs.

This isn't something that I'm super pulling for it would just make people respect him at that distance.



Yeah. I have no answers for this move. It's funny how many commentators make fun of this move though LOL. Oh well.



This is true.



Really it's about Marth and the night/day difference between him and Roy. They're both suppose to be the same TYPE of character with sweet spot hits but Marth got the HUGE short end of that. A character that I love to play... a lot. Marth is low tier because characters are constantly living to 200% against him. It's not because he can't deal damage. He just has to land a raw tipper most of the time to get that kill. Good players just don't give you that opportunity. Like take Byleth for example: Byleth has a tipper on the spear moves (fsmash is a great example) but they nearly ALWAYS connect. I mean... to miss you have to REALLY screw up your spacing. For Marth it's... I'm perfectly spaced and STILL got the sour spot. It's just frustrating.





Another move I'd like changed is up b. There's a whole section of Marth's sword on the first active frame that doesn't have a hitbox. Add a tipper hitbox to that for the grounded move. That would also serve to distinguish him from Lucina.

I just really feel that Marth needs more reward for landing his tippers. Many of them are much weaker than moves with no sour/sweetspot. Sometimes even sourspots are stronger. Hero specifically kills easier with a sourspot Fair and BAIR but Marth tipper BAIR and fair are much weaker. I feel the biggest offender is Pyra who has significantly stronger moves with more range and smaller sour spots (Her sour spots are also generally stronger than marth tippers)

He just struggles to get tippers consistently, and when he does the rewards are often less than most characters.

 

[Hippieslayer]

What annoys me about Marth and makes me not want to play is that you dont get tippers just because you hit with the tip of the blade, its more specific than that. You have to learn exactly what part of a moves active hitboxes will tipper at what range in which situations whereas in previous games it was more intuitive and you were able to get a lot of tippers by just doing what makes sense which was spacing your moves so that you hit the opponent with the tip of his blade.

Getting his weakass sourspot even though you hit an opponent with the tip of the blade is ****ing dumb. If they want it to work like this they need to make it so that hitting with the actual tip of the blade always guarantees at least Lucina level power.

 

[A_Kae]

I've maybe killed someone at 55% off a dtilt tech chase into tipper fsmash once or twice in the lifetime of this game. That is WAY WAY too hard to hit for that move to stay that way. DB is easier of course but fsmash is REALLY hard to connect on a tech chase. Dsmash is easier too.


Anywho... the reason I want it to not send as far is because of tipper uptilt which kills reliably on tech chase pretty dang early. MKLeo has showcased this quite a few times. You dtilt into tumble run up uptilt. It auto tippers when they're on the ground. So there's the problem. Sour dtilt tumbles at the right location but at really high percents where as tipper dtilt tumbles way earlier but doesn't set up into an uptilt at say 115% or so. It knocks them too far away. MKLeo has also stated this in a stream. The easier dtilt tipper that they gave him in the last Marth buff patch screwed up dtilt tech chases because you're actually trying NOT to tipper. It's stupid.

Hmm, tbqh I think dtilt kb (tipper or sourspot) is fine as is and it setting up for anything really is perhaps more than it deserves. Like, it's a strong, safe poke and I think that's enough for it. Tech chases into kills/damage are just an extra bonus.

I can absolutely see how tipper having less kb would be good in the right situation and how some people will prefer that (I wouldn't mind either!). I just don't think it needs anything more.

Maybe they would be but I don't think so, it MUST be a tipper which is fairly difficult (admittedly shield break isn't a bad tipper but it's still not easy).

A lot of characters have NEAR instant shield breaks. It would just make characters respect Marth at that tipper range and not just shield all those fair/nairs.


This isn't something that I'm super pulling for it would just make people respect him at that distance.

There's not a near-instant or instant shield break move that's comparable to shield breaker though, unless somethings slipped my mind? Tipper sb is our largest tipper too, 7.0 units wide compared to most moves at 5-6 units.

It'd just change the whole dynamic of Marth vs shield, and in a very unhealthy way.

Last Patch

It's 13.0.1, which means just bugfixes, and probably just for Sora (some sort of counter freeze bug?) There might still be 13.1 in the future though!

edit: missed the word 'final' the first time, guess no 13.1 then? I still think it's probably just bugfixes, based on the number and how soon it is from the last patch, but maybe?

Like take Byleth for example: Byleth has a tipper on the spear moves (fsmash is a great example) but they nearly ALWAYS connect. I mean... to miss you have to REALLY screw up your spacing.

Fun fact! Byleth's tippers are 2-3 (closer to 3 iirc) times the size of Marth's, with fsmash and sideb even having priority on the sweetspot!

Another move I'd like changed is up b. There's a whole section of Marth's sword on the first active frame that doesn't have a hitbox. Add a tipper hitbox to that for the grounded move. That would also serve to distinguish him from Lucina.

yes please. Doesn't need to be a tipper imo but the massive hitbox gap is just so frustrating. One of the many brawl > s4 nerfs/guttings that hasn't been reverted or adjusted to be more sane.

 

[Rain0]

Like take Byleth for example: Byleth has a tipper on the spear moves (fsmash is a great example) but they nearly ALWAYS connect. I mean... to miss you have to REALLY screw up your spacing. For Marth it's... I'm perfectly spaced and STILL got the sour spot. It's just frustrating.

I will admit, I have an easier time landing Byleth's and (Especially) Corrin's tippers

But still, I wouldn't call Marth a low tier

 

[Idon]

Yeah he is pretty low tier but all this means is Smash 6 will overcompensate him with buffs!

Right?

 

[Caryslan]

I tried to pick up Marth last night and play him online, and good lord does he struggle.

It's just so hard to land the tipper in the game because everyone and their grandma outrange him. Pretty much any sword fighter not named Marth has better range than him and can safely stay out of the range of his tippers.

When I play Lucina, none of that matters. Lucina in fact has an easier time staying in any opponent's face and moving around their attacks to punish them.

As Marth, I was missing great KO chances because I kept landing the Sourspot and it was just hard to get in. No, getting it was not the issue. When you want to punish and rack up damage Marth does this just as well as Lucina as long as you don't care about the sourspot.

But when it comes to landing tippers to get a KO, that's honestly a different story. It just feels like Marth can't find the space to land tippers in the game, and matters are not helped by the fact that so many other fighters simply outrange him like the Belmonts, Sephroith, Byleth, Min Min, etc.

Back in Smash 4, I played both Lucina and Marth although I tended to favor Lucina more. But I could swap between the two and I could do well as Marth.

But it just feels like his entire game design of landing tippers have turned against him in a game where so many fighters not only have better-ranged options, but have larger and longer weapons than Marth.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I tried to pick up Marth last night and play him online, and good lord does he struggle.

It's just so hard to land the tipper in the game because everyone and their grandma outrange him. Pretty much any sword fighter not named Marth has better range than him and can safely stay out of the range of his tippers.

When I play Lucina, none of that matters. Lucina in fact has an easier time staying in any opponent's face and moving around their attacks to punish them.

As Marth, I was missing great KO chances because I kept landing the Sourspot and it was just hard to get in. No, getting it was not the issue. When you want to punish and rack up damage Marth does this just as well as Lucina as long as you don't care about the sourspot.

But when it comes to landing tippers to get a KO, that's honestly a different story. It just feels like Marth can't find the space to land tippers in the game, and matters are not helped by the fact that so many other fighters simply outrange him like the Belmonts, Sephroith, Byleth, Min Min, etc.

Back in Smash 4, I played both Lucina and Marth although I tended to favor Lucina more. But I could swap between the two and I could do well as Marth.

But it just feels like his entire game design of landing tippers have turned against him in a game where so many fighters not only have better-ranged options, but have larger and longer weapons than Marth.

The worst issue is that Marth doesn’t get the same reward even when he does get tippers. Min Min consistently gets better reward than Marth with 8x less risk than him.

 

[stixie]

It's 13.0.1, which means just bugfixes, and probably just for Sora (some sort of counter freeze bug?) There might still be 13.1 in the future though!

edit: missed the word 'final' the first time, guess no 13.1 then? I still think it's probably just bugfixes, based on the number and how soon it is from the last patch, but maybe?

You'll notice it DOES say "fighter adjustments". Who knows really. It could be just bug fixes but... PLEASE nintendo.

On that note I'm not at all hopeful for last patch Zelda buffs bwahahahaha!!

yes please. Doesn't need to be a tipper imo but the massive hitbox gap is just so frustrating. One of the many brawl > s4 nerfs/guttings that hasn't been reverted or adjusted to be more sane.

Yeah I don't completely care if it's a tipper but I think that would be absolutely amazing. It would make people think twice before trying stupid things on Marth's shield.

I tried to pick up Marth last night and play him online, and good lord does he struggle.

It's just so hard to land the tipper in the game because everyone and their grandma outrange him. Pretty much any sword fighter not named Marth has better range than him and can safely stay out of the range of his tippers.

When I play Lucina, none of that matters. Lucina in fact has an easier time staying in any opponent's face and moving around their attacks to punish them.

Yeah here's a fun fact: I got Marth into Elite Smash (which... online Marth... oh dear) and it took probably a month of blood sweat and a lot of tears. Then I grabbed Lucina who was about 6M GSP... I had her in Elite Smash in about 2 hours. Night and day difference.

 

[Caryslan]

The worst issue is that Marth doesn’t get the same reward even when he does get tippers. Min Min consistently gets a better reward than Marth with 8x less risk than him.

You don't even have to go into other fighters like the Belmonts, Byleth or Min Min. Look at Roy and how much he gets rewarded for nailing sweet spots on his blade. It helps that he's built to be an aggressive fighter that can rush in and expose weak spots and openings in an opponent's offense.

That's the issue with Marth, not only is he outranged by everyone in the roster who carries a weapon, but his rewards are much smaller even if he does nail a tipper.

Roy gets massive rewards for hitting in the center of his blade(and it seems more generous than what Marth gets) while Lucina and Chrom both don't have to worry about sweet and sour spots, and trade in that little bit of extra power for the safety of having equal power across their blade.

This in turn leads to Marth pretty much being outclassed by his semi-clones that build on his desgin.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

You don't even have to go into other fighters like the Belmonts, Byleth or Min Min. Look at Roy and how much he gets rewarded for nailing sweet spots on his blade. It helps that he's built to be an aggressive fighter that can rush in and expose weak spots and openings in an opponent's offense.

That's the issue with Marth, not only is he outranged by everyone in the roster who carries a weapon, but his rewards are much smaller even if he does nail a tipper.

Roy gets massive rewards for hitting in the center of his blade(and it seems more generous than what Marth gets) while Lucina and Chrom both don't have to worry about sweet and sour spots, and trade in that little bit of extra power for the safety of having equal power across their blade.

This in turn leads to Marth pretty much being outclassed by his semi-clones that build on his desgin.

FYI… Marth Fair when fully spaced is less safe than Hero’s fair when spaced. Why? G&W Up-b cannot punish fully spaced Hero fair, even if the frame data suggests that would be the case. Marth gets hit by G&W up-b, unless PERFECTLY spaced. The worst part? Hero fair isn’t meant for spacing. Yet the move meant for spacing does a worse job at spacing… I just want to play Marth without feeling like “Wow, this guy sucks. I wish I was playing Lucina right now.” There is just so much risk, for so little reward.

 

[A_Kae]

FYI… Marth Fair when fully spaced is less safe than Hero’s fair when spaced. Why? G&W Up-b cannot punish fully spaced Hero fair, even if the frame data suggests that would be the case. Marth gets hit by G&W up-b, unless PERFECTLY spaced. The worst part? Hero fair isn’t meant for spacing. Yet the move meant for spacing does a worse job at spacing… I just want to play Marth without feeling like “Wow, this guy sucks. I wish I was playing Lucina right now.” There is just so much risk, for so little reward.

Well, what do you think of Luci's fair, then? Fresh, it's the same shieldstun as Marth's blade and 1f less than tipper, 4f/5f compared to 4f.

Their safety has always come from spacing and not from raw numbers

edit: This is something that's kind of always bothered me, how deficiencies that both characters share are only ever acknowledged on Marth, and get glossed over on Lucina.

 

[stixie]

edit: This is something that's kind of always bothered me, how deficiencies that both characters share are only ever acknowledged on Marth, and get glossed over on Lucina.

I’d say because with all of Marth’s other flaws it amplifies things that are shared. I’m not arguing any of their points just the fact that it’s not a big deal with Lucina because as a top tier she’d be broken without the flaws.

 

[A_Kae]

I’d say because with all of Marth’s other flaws it amplifies things that are shared. I’m not arguing any of their points just the fact that it’s not a big deal with Lucina because as a top tier she’d be broken without the flaws.

True, true... There can be a lot of nuance to these things.

I've just gotten into some conversations over the years where I've been told some pretty strange things in this area. I guess it's something of a sore spot for me?

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Well, what do you think of Luci's fair, then? Fresh, it's the same shieldstun as Marth's blade and 1f less than tipper, 4f/5f compared to 4f.

Their safety has always come from spacing and not from raw numbers

edit: This is something that's kind of always bothered me, how deficiencies that both characters share are only ever acknowledged on Marth, and get glossed over on Lucina.

I think it’s just a fundamental issue with the move in general. But given how easy it is to space Lucina fair, I think it’s okay if it isn’t the safest thing in the world. However, Marth has much more difficulty spacing his moves yet he only he only gets about 1 extra frame of safety on shield and only slightly higher reward when they actually hit. But if he fails to space correctly, he may as well hit the opponent with a foam pool noodle. While they both share the same deficiencies, Lucina’s are much less pronounced because of her lack of sour spots.

 

[A_Kae]

I think it’s just a fundamental issue with the move in general. But given how easy it is to space Lucina fair, I think it’s okay if it isn’t the safest thing in the world. However, Marth has much more difficulty spacing his moves yet he only he only gets about 1 extra frame of safety on shield and only slightly higher reward when they actually hit. But if he fails to space correctly, he may as well hit the opponent with a foam pool noodle. While they both share the same deficiencies, Lucina’s are much less pronounced because of her lack of sour spots.

Reward depends on the move of course and while fair is pretty negative look, I'd call ftilt killing 50%+ earlier with a generous tipper more than slightly higher reward. You've got big wins on some relevant, important moves even if some aren't great.

Damage is a thing too, of course, but when the damage range on Marth is like 3-4% wide, it's not that big of a deal to lose like fair does (8/11.5 vs 10.5 or -2/+1). Even if it does kinda suck. Some stuff favors marth more too.

But it all really depends on what happens in practice and there's practically 0 high-level Marth players. But on the rare occasion that he does show up, I see it work out well enough. Not perfectly, no, not without people living a long time sometimes, not with every tipper coming out when it needs to, not with every sourspot converting into big damage or kills.

Not without him doing likely worse than the same player could do with Lucina or another swordie.

But.

Not performing as non-functional as I see people say. The character works. Well enough. And that's my point here in all this.



also I remembered about text formatting just now! can you tell?

 

[Rain0]

Yeah he is pretty low tier but all this means is Smash 6 will overcompensate him with buffs!

Right?

That is, if he comes back in Smash 6

 

[Idon]

That is, if he comes back in Smash 6

I'd bet more on there not being a Smash 6 at all than Marth not being in Smash 6 lol.

 

[StrangeKitten]

That is, if he comes back in Smash 6

I don't see any reason why he wouldn't. He's the de facto mascot of the Fire Emblem series. Ike gives him some competition in that regard, being one of, if not the most popular character. But even then, why wouldn't they include both Marth and Ike? If they end up wanting to drastically reduce the amount of Fire Emblem characters in the next game, I don't see why keeping those two would be unreasonable. I also doubt we'll see more than 20 characters cut, as Smash has not typically cut very many characters. And of the characters who may be on the chopping block, Marth is not one of them.

 

[stixie]

Reward depends on the move of course and while fair is pretty negative look, I'd call ftilt killing 50%+ earlier with a generous tipper more than slightly higher reward. You've got big wins on some relevant, important moves even if some aren't great.

Marth DOES have a few moves that are really good. The real reason I secondary Marth rather than Lucina are because of the moves that are amazing moves. Moves like: nair, ftilt, uptilt, and shield break are pretty much strictly just better than Lucina's echo moves. The problem is all the OTHER moves that are way worse... like fair, DB, dtilt, and ALL the smash attacks.

Marth really wouldn't take much to make him competitive. I'm against ANY character being broken and oppressive but on that same note I want every character to be competitive. Marth just simply isn't.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Marth DOES have a few moves that are really good. The real reason I secondary Marth rather than Lucina are because of the moves that are amazing moves. Moves like: nair, ftilt, uptilt, and shield break are pretty much strictly just better than Lucina's echo moves. The problem is all the OTHER moves that are way worse... like fair, DB, dtilt, and ALL the smash attacks.

Marth really wouldn't take much to make him competitive. I'm against ANY character being broken and oppressive but on that same note I want every character to be competitive. Marth just simply isn't.

I would say dancing blade is higher skill cap higher reward. Dancing Blade kills at 50 near the ledge, way earlier than all the other dancing blades. This is high enough reward to justify it being so hard to hit, even if the animations and hit boxes don’t line up correctly.

 

[A_Kae]

Marth DOES have a few moves that are really good. The real reason I secondary Marth rather than Lucina are because of the moves that are amazing moves. Moves like: nair, ftilt, uptilt, and shield break are pretty much strictly just better than Lucina's echo moves. The problem is all the OTHER moves that are way worse... like fair, DB, dtilt, and ALL the smash attacks.

Marth really wouldn't take much to make him competitive. I'm against ANY character being broken and oppressive but on that same note I want every character to be competitive. Marth just simply isn't.

This is just something we'll have to agree to disagree on, yeah? I think he's already competitive, even if a bit lacking overall and compared to some other characters. You're more negative on him, and I get that and it's fine and very understandable.

Who knows, maybe in six months or so time someone will have picked him up and shown that "Marth stuff" can work out consistently enough at a high level. There's a chance, I think, even if a slim one.

I would say dancing blade is higher skill cap higher reward. Dancing Blade kills at 50 near the ledge, way earlier than all the other dancing blades. This is high enough reward to justify it being so hard to hit, even if the animations and hit boxes don’t line up correctly.

I generally think of db killing about ~15% (roughly, there's a lot a variables) earlier than Roy's. Which isn't that good when the difficulty is orders of magnitude apart. I still don't see people hitting it with what I could call any real degree of consistency, not enough in tournament matches anyways; it gets flubbed a lot. But the gradual return to offline should help things at least a bit.

But if people start actually SDI'ing it, deliberately, it's bound to be even worse though. 2.8 unit wide tipper with sdi shifting 2*0.8=1.6 units left or right with a single input.

 

[stixie]

This is just something we'll have to agree to disagree on, yeah? I think he's already competitive, even if a bit lacking overall and compared to some other characters. You're more negative on him, and I get that and it's fine and very understandable.

Well, the fact there are exactly zero Marth players doing anything in any kind of tournament is kinda telling. Maybe JayZ and that Ignaize guy but locals are an entirely different thing from actually competing in a major where everyone is using top tiers. So... in that sense he's not competitive.

I generally think of db killing about ~15% (roughly, there's a lot a variables) earlier than Roy's. Which isn't that good when the difficulty is orders of magnitude apart. I still don't see people hitting it with what I could call any real degree of consistency, not enough in tournament matches anyways; it gets flubbed a lot. But the gradual return to offline should help things at least a bit.

But if people start actually SDI'ing it, deliberately, it's bound to be even worse though. 2.8 unit wide tipper with sdi shifting 2*0.8=1.6 units left or right with a single input.

This is so so so true. DB is the worst DB of the cast (and the margin is HUGE). Lucina's straight up kills no questions asked at around 120 on the ledge, Chrom earlier that that I'm pretty sure (not 100% sure but I think his has more KB than Lucina), and Roy... well... we all know about Roy's.

It's like doing advanced calculus in your head (for what percent the opponent is at + their weight + their SDI + what distance you started the move at) for Marth compared to just mashing the B button for everyone else (maybe for Lucina you throw in a down input on the third swing but still... not hard).

 

[A_Kae]

Well, the fact there are exactly zero Marth players doing anything in any kind of tournament is kinda telling. Maybe JayZ and that Ignaize guy but locals are an entirely different thing from actually competing in a major where everyone is using top tiers. So... in that sense he's not competitive.

I'm mostly talking in a theory sense, representation is near non-existent above the local level (but you see some players do well there!). Rizeasu in Japan has done decently with Marth in some larger tournaments though (pretty sure anyways, would have to check). Kreeg as well? I think there's maybe someone I'm forgetting too.

But, yeah, nothing notable AFAIK on the major/super-major level and that's where the true test of a character is. But it's more down to the substitution effect of Lucina than Marth himself imo. Like 70%/30%. I think if he had players actually playing him he'd be making into that "decent enough mid-tier" level results.

Like, that's what I feel like I see the scant few times he does show up.

This is so so so true. DB is the worst DB of the cast (and the margin is HUGE). Lucina's straight up kills no questions asked at around 120 on the ledge, Chrom earlier that that I'm pretty sure (not 100% sure but I think his has more KB than Lucina), and Roy... well... we all know about Roy's.


It's like doing advanced calculus in your head (for what percent the opponent is at + their weight + their SDI + what distance you started the move at) for Marth compared to just mashing the B button for everyone else (maybe for Lucina you throw in a down input on the third swing but still... not hard).

Chrom's is a bit stronger, yeah.

Don't forget about the character's kb animation too! Different characters stretch and position their limbs in different ways during hitstun from db3 and that makes a big difference too. Your rage too, high rage makes the move feel pretty different to me. And db's first three hits are actually weight-independent knockback, so that doesn't matter.

Honestly I have half a mind to say "just make the tipper huge on it, if we're saying roy's is "fine"". But I really think it would be unhealthy for the character and the game; it's better off being dysfunctional than broken I guess. As dissatisfying as it is.