Marth help

[Nagy]

So I recently played a tourney in my high school scene. I was in winners semis for this set, and normally I never place anything less than 1st. However this is the tournament where I got 4th. My knock out natch can also be later linked if necessary but if you look for Zach vs weston you should find it. So I'm look back over it and besides too much forward smash in neutral, as I have already been working on that right away, what else could I do to improve my Marth? I feel my movement is decent most of the time but I never get the combo game I want. I've been working to stop fsmashing so much in neutral and have been working on dtilts and grab approaches to lead into fair and uairs. If there is anything else please let me know and thanks! https://youtu.be/GSXpHnWe_Uc

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Here's a list of things I saw.

1. Work on approaches.
2. Work on movement.
3. I've also noticed you losing momentum, try to keep momentum throughout the match.
4. Make sure your u-air juggles are late, early u-airs are no good for the most part.
5. Make sure that when recovering, side-b and then jump, not jump then side-b.
6. Try not to use the same thing over and over, use mix-ups and look into your other options.
7. Most of the time, U-Smash really isn't a good attack.
8. You could use some polishing on your reaction time as well.
9. You always seem to try to be grounded, Marth has pretty good aerial game, use it.
10. Don't counter unless you're 99.999999999% sure you'll get it off.

Overall, I think you have good ideas most of the time, but your execution is off, train your ass off, and I can see you becoming a pretty good Marth. Good luck, and if you need any further help or explanation feel free to contact me.

 

[meebius]

Capitalize when you get a hit. There were numerous times where you'd get the opportunity for a combo and you'd just get nothing. Every time you got a grab, there would be no follow up or any tech chasing, just this pitiful 7%.

 

[QuantumKiller]

It looks like you have a very strong habit of wavedashing into forward smash. Try downtilting or JC grab them instead at lower percentages because the insane lag from a missed forward smash got you combo'd many times throughout the match(probably also one of the main reasons you lost). More movement options and edgeguard more would also benefit you a lot.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Work on wavedash out of shield to punish laggy moves on your shield like Roy's f-smash. You tried to drop your shield > grab multiples times. That doesn't work as Marth. Fair out of shield works too.

Your clearly have no idea how to deal with Falco's lasers, because everytime you got hit by one, you got destroyed. Counter isn't really a solution. Learn how to get hit by lasers into dash away or use the above out of shield options to maneuver around the lasers in the intervals in between the shots.

Ledgehop nair is almost always better than ledgehop fair. It's a minor thing to change, but everything makes a difference.

Everytime you are put in the air you come down with an aerial, usually fair. And whenever you're recovering, you seem to throw out fairs to try to swat the enemy away. The problem is if you do double jump fair and it whiffs or the opponent shields it, you are going to eat a strong aerial out of shield and probably die because you'll get hit without your double jump. This is a hard habit to break, I know, but just tell yourself as you're playing to not be greedy.

Do your aerials while moving away from the opponent or just prioritize getting back to the ground as shown here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSRrGwSwLpw#t=12m13s

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ledgehop nair is almost always better than ledgehop fair. It's a minor thing to change, but everything makes a difference.

I have a few reasons why I believe it to be the opposite.

The first reason is the fact that its crouch cancelable effectively by the entire cast I believe. Even at 150% Jiggs can CC the first hit and never launch off the ground. So, yeah, the move is incredibly weak. I have had people routinely punish me for using Nair from the ledge and one going so far as to pick out the habit and yell at me to for it.

Basically, you CC the first hit and punish before the next hit depending upon what is used. An example on Fox is that he comes out of stun so fast from crouch canceling that Fox is actually out of stun before Marth is even finished with the hitlag on his own Nair. Add in a 7 frame window between 1st hit to 2nd hit and Marth can get sniped punished by quite a few attacks and several characters. One of which being shine or a characters Dsmash. There are a few Dsmash with frame with 7 or less start-up time and getting hit without your 2nd jump is pretty death for Marth at the ledge.

Fair/Uair is preferable due to the fact that CC is not effective at all percents against these moves.

Another reason is the trajectory is better than Nair. Fair hits with at least the same trajectory as Nair does at the base of the sword, but if you tipper you get a higher angle making your reversal a better situation. Uair is similar in that regard in that it would put them directly above the stage clearly giving you the rest of the stage.

 

[Nagy]

Here's a list of things I saw.

1. Work on approaches.
2. Work on movement.
3. I've also noticed you losing momentum, try to keep momentum throughout the match.
4. Make sure your u-air juggles are late, early u-airs are no good for the most part.
5. Make sure that when recovering, side-b and then jump, not jump then side-b.
6. Try not to use the same thing over and over, use mix-ups and look into your other options.
7. Most of the time, U-Smash really isn't a good attack.
8. You could use some polishing on your reaction time as well.
9. You always seem to try to be grounded, Marth has pretty good aerial game, use it.
10. Don't counter unless you're 99.999999999% sure you'll get it off.

Overall, I think you have good ideas most of the time, but your execution is off, train your *** off, and I can see you becoming a pretty good Marth. Good luck, and if you need any further help or explanation feel free to contact me.

Thank you so much for all your help! I will make sure to contact you for anything else. When I get home I'll begin working on this. A reason I was staying grounded was to try and work on dtilts and grabs but during the match I didn't really do that. Thank you for the in depth reply!

Capitalize when you get a hit. There were numerous times where you'd get the opportunity for a combo and you'd just get nothing. Every time you got a grab, there would be no follow up or any tech chasing, just this pitiful 7%.

That is very true! I wasn't as on point with my chain grabs on the Falco, usually I can at least get to 20%. I'll try to grind some more out and some follow ups as well!

It looks like you have a very strong habit of wavedashing into forward smash. Try downtilting or JC grab them instead at lower percentages because the insane lag from a missed forward smash got you combo'd many times throughout the match(probably also one of the main reasons you lost). More movement options and edgeguard more would also benefit you a lot.

I did notice that! I've been focused on that. Thank you for your reply

Work on wavedash out of shield to punish laggy moves on your shield like Roy's f-smash. You tried to drop your shield > grab multiples times. That doesn't work as Marth. Fair out of shield works too.

Your clearly have no idea how to deal with Falco's lasers, because everytime you got hit by one, you got destroyed. Counter isn't really a solution. Learn how to get hit by lasers into dash away or use the above out of shield options to maneuver around the lasers in the intervals in between the shots.

Ledgehop nair is almost always better than ledgehop fair. It's a minor thing to change, but everything makes a difference.

Everytime you are put in the air you come down with an aerial, usually fair. And whenever you're recovering, you seem to throw out fairs to try to swat the enemy away. The problem is if you do double jump fair and it whiffs or the opponent shields it, you are going to eat a strong aerial out of shield and probably die because you'll get hit without your double jump. This is a hard habit to break, I know, but just tell yourself as you're playing to not be greedy.

Do your aerials while moving away from the opponent or just prioritize getting back to the ground as shown here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSRrGwSwLpw#t=12m13s

That video definitely helped to visualize what you meant. I often have trouble approaching Falco. Is the best way to learn oos options and wavedash oos to get closer while remaining undamaged?

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Thank you so much for all your help! I will make sure to contact you for anything else. When I get home I'll begin working on this. A reason I was staying grounded was to try and work on dtilts and grabs but during the match I didn't really do that. Thank you for the in depth reply!

Anytime lol,

 

[ChivalRuse]

That video definitely helped to visualize what you meant. I often have trouble approaching Falco. Is the best way to learn oos options and wavedash oos to get closer while remaining undamaged?

To get closer or to retreat. By the way, make sure that you don't do multiple posts in a row. Instead, you can edit your previous post and copy/paste the quoted text.

@ E Elyssa Xey Hexen Nair actually has more knockback than uair and fair at all percents. If your opponent is not at 0%, you can do a late ledgehopped nair and shield before a Falco can crouch cancel downsmash (just space the move so that only the second hit connects).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yeah, I forgot to look at base knock back. Nair wins that regard.

There are several things to consider I suppose for which move might be most appropriate and maybe either usage of Nair/Fair/Uair is situation specific. If the later hit of Nair was the only thing that hit I would prefer it, but otherwise, punishing someone from the ledge Fair/Uair is certainly better due to the angle. Otherwise, sending someone deep into center stage puts you back to neutral. Better than being offstage still, but you might have had a better conversion.

Plus, how easily can you always avoid the 1st hit at all? The objective is to get on stage with Nair because failing to do so will pretty much get you stuck at the ledge even if you do hit someone because you are forced to UpB right back to the ledge. That seems very specific situation of a person being deep on and barely out of reach of the ledge. Fair/Uair cover a range similar to Nair, but being able to swipe at people say on platform trying to fall through.

Though I guess that is the solution. Fair/Uair for ungrounded targets at the ledge and Nair for grounded. Double hit is useful on shield to prevent early punish, but the CC threat on 1st his is very relevant. Falco's Dsmash is a slower option. Depending upon spacing getting hit by Shine is entirely possible. Even CC -> jab is disruptive as you have no 2nd jump anymore. I remember dying once to mario's CC -> punch punch kick.

My point is that that move carries retaliation risk on the 1st hit against much of the cast in some form and virtually any percent. Its an incredibly specific spacing to hit with 2nd, but not 1st what I think and is not always achievable from the ledge. If we really want to optimize, then Uair/Fair are still preferable punishes for achieving a stronger advantage near the ledge when you get on. You get the same damage for the most part and the lower knockback can be useful to keep a person low to the ground and put onto a platform allowing for stronger follow-up and better control of where next to send them.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's easy to counter attack, sure. The first hit of nair can indeed by crouch cancel downsmashed, etc (although it occurs less frequently than you might think because most people don't realize that they can do this and wait for the second hit to connect lol). But the hitbox staying out the longest makes it harder than fair or uair to punish. That being said, I like ledgehopped uair in situations where the opponent is on a platform or double jumping, and I like ledgehopped fair if the opponent is far away for catching them by surprise (especially if they're used to seeing nair or waveland as your main options).

 

[vexoskeleton]

Other than what everyone else has covered you should try to dtilt more during neutral as it's an amazingly quick attack and jc your grabs during dash. Also dont try to punish everything with fsmash. I saw multiple times when falco was up b'ing and you could have killed him but you went for an unspaced fsmash and didn't get it. Also after around 100% up b will start to kill if you hit them with like the bottom hitboxes of it and thats better guaranteed if you reverse the up b since you wont accidently hit with a different hitbox from the slash, this can be used to get kills when they are in lag and upclose to you instead of something like fsmash or at ~75% to possibly set up an edge guard situation.