Marth Dittos

[dinn3rr]

I know this was already posted, but it was heavily general and it didn't really cover most of the stuff I was looking for. I was looking for help on neutral and grab game, and just help with getting DTilts out as quick as possible. I know the MU and how stupid it is, but I'm getting tired of getting sent off the stage at 30 to a random tipper, only to get edguarded by a simple dtilt for not perfect-sweetspotting.

So pretty much what I'm asking help for is:

Neutral Game

Grab Game, where to DI (Not forward throw, I know it's down-away for FThrow)

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

The best answer to random tipper at 30 is to simply hold down during parts of your dash dance (this leads to crouch cancel which at 30% means you're not going far even if you get tippered (and outside of yoshis generally not even offstage) Recovering against dtilt specifically is also not that hard. Marth can grab the ledge from pretty low and there is a lot of space to go below it.

As for neutral in the marth matchup, neutral is tricky to discuss because there is literally a counter to everything. What most people will tell you is to not throw out that many unsafe moves. Because if you whiff or do something unspaced on shield marth has insane amounts of endlag. (like really insane) That being said you still have to make your opponent respect you and your options so you can't simply not throw out moves. Which means you have to find a balance between throwing out as many safe (and I can't stress the safe part enough) moves and not throwing out anything at all just dashing around waiting for your opponent to get in a position where they have to whiff something. The best moves to use in neutral are generally nair, fair dtilt and grab (do keep in mind grab is not like those other moves in that it is a grab rather than a normal move). When and where you choose to use them is up to you.

 

[Kiusthugs]

I usually like to read their dash dance and boost grab them. Everyone uses dd on marth. They usually expect for you to tgrow out a move. I like to ruin their movement flow sort of speak by being agressive. Or if there are platforms I like to camp there if they play super defensive and let then come to you.

 

[AirFair]

Neutral is based off of a couple different options that the two of you have. Grab is the most important thing you can get on marth, but the way to work into his space is very difficult, especially when you consider that the other marth also has the same goal in mind, which results in a very footsie heavy matchup.

I usually like to read their dash dance and boost grab them. Everyone uses dd on marth. They usually expect for you to tgrow out a move. I like to ruin their movement flow sort of speak by being agressive. Or if there are platforms I like to camp there if they play super defensive and let then come to you.

This will be very inefficient as you gain skill. The thing about your boost grab strategy is that it is flawed by the fact that you assume you will always be able to land it. If I see that all you are doing is going for raw grabs like that, then it is easy for me to conclude that an fsmash or rising fair can take care of that. You have to use other options. Also, playing defensively can be bad because you are most likely going to give up the majority of the stage without taking any initiative. At early percents you can afford to trade dtilts by crouch cancelling, but the most important thing you want to do is to see what they go for and what they tend to do when you attack. Judging their responses will help you decide whether to play proactively and reactively.

You can let them come to you, but only if you know they will.

 

[dinn3rr]

The best answer to random tipper at 30 is to simply hold down during parts of your dash dance (this leads to crouch cancel which at 30% means you're not going far even if you get tippered (and outside of yoshis generally not even offstage) Recovering against dtilt specifically is also not that hard. Marth can grab the ledge from pretty low and there is a lot of space to go below it.

As for neutral in the marth matchup, neutral is tricky to discuss because there is literally a counter to everything. What most people will tell you is to not throw out that many unsafe moves. Because if you whiff or do something unspaced on shield marth has insane amounts of endlag. (like really insane) That being said you still have to make your opponent respect you and your options so you can't simply not throw out moves. Which means you have to find a balance between throwing out as many safe (and I can't stress the safe part enough) moves and not throwing out anything at all just dashing around waiting for your opponent to get in a position where they have to whiff something. The best moves to use in neutral are generally nair, fair dtilt and grab (do keep in mind grab is not like those other moves in that it is a grab rather than a normal move). When and where you choose to use them is up to you.

I know the MU and generally I can take most marth ditto games, it's just I am really getting tired of that BS that is Marth Dittos. I know it won't ever go away, but what I usually do in neutral is dashdance agressively, dash-cancel DTilt and cactuar-dash in and out of Marth's space. I usually don't approach with nair, only if they're looking for a grab, whereas I'll do a cross-over nair. It generally works, I get a grab from them whiffing or the 2nd hit of the Nair will hit them. But yeah, thanks for the help. Any tips on getting DTilts out as quickly as possible? I feel like mine are coming out too slowly during DD.

I usually like to read their dash dance and boost grab them. Everyone uses dd on marth. They usually expect for you to tgrow out a move. I like to ruin their movement flow sort of speak by being agressive. Or if there are platforms I like to camp there if they play super defensive and let then come to you.

I'm talking about the true marth ditto. IMO Marth's boost grab really isn't that good. And I'm talking about mid-high Marth dittos, I know advanced tech, and I've been told and I believe my movement with marth is really fluid and fast. The only thing really stubbing me are DTilts and somehow getting tipper'd at 30 to be sent offstage. A smart marth will stay grounded (which I do, naturally since Marth's anti-air game is godlike) and just wait for the platform camper to go to the lowest platforms, which usually results in uairs, and utilts.

 

[Hunybear]

As far as getting you Run cancel D-tilts.

Here is a thread that has Marths Dash data
http://smashboards.com/threads/2014...nowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/#post-16153183

Here is the D-tilt Thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/d-tilt-out-of-run-slow.423015/

Basicly your dash Turns into a run on Frame 16. You can initiate your Crouch on frame 17. You can start you D-tilt as soon as you start your crouch but remember to tilt your control stick down to activate crouch, not Mash it. If you mash your control stick down to crouch you'll have to wait an additional 3 frames (the window for smash imputes) so you don't accidently D-smash.

IDK if this will be helpful but WD takes 15 frames (i think) jump is air born on frame 5 and air dodging into the ground causes 10 frames of lag. So if you WD out of run to D-tilt account for this delay.

Really you should learn all the movement options you can D-tilt out of quickly and brain storm different variations and applications of the move.

 

[dinn3rr]

As far as getting you Run cancel D-tilts.

Here is a thread that has Marths Dash data
http://smashboards.com/threads/2014...nowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/#post-16153183

Here is the D-tilt Thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/d-tilt-out-of-run-slow.423015/

Basicly your dash Turns into a run on Frame 16. You can initiate your Crouch on frame 17. You can start you D-tilt as soon as you start your crouch but remember to tilt your control stick down to activate crouch, not Mash it. If you mash your control stick down to crouch you'll have to wait an additional 3 frames (the window for smash imputes) so you don't accidently D-smash.

IDK if this will be helpful but WD takes 15 frames (i think) jump is air born on frame 5 and air dodging into the ground causes 10 frames of lag. So if you WD out of run to D-tilt account for this delay.

Really you should learn all the movement options you can D-tilt out of quickly and brain storm different variations and applications of the move.

Thank you so much for the info. I have been looking EVERYWHERE for Marth's dash data and the such but I haven't been able to locate it. I've been looking in the wrong place the entire time to get the dash data out. Cheers, man.

 

[Delta Chae]

As far as getting you Run cancel D-tilts.

Here is a thread that has Marths Dash data
http://smashboards.com/threads/2014...nowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/#post-16153183

Here is the D-tilt Thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/d-tilt-out-of-run-slow.423015/

Basicly your dash Turns into a run on Frame 16. You can initiate your Crouch on frame 17. You can start you D-tilt as soon as you start your crouch but remember to tilt your control stick down to activate crouch, not Mash it. If you mash your control stick down to crouch you'll have to wait an additional 3 frames (the window for smash imputes) so you don't accidently D-smash.

IDK if this will be helpful but WD takes 15 frames (i think) jump is air born on frame 5 and air dodging into the ground causes 10 frames of lag. So if you WD out of run to D-tilt account for this delay.

Really you should learn all the movement options you can D-tilt out of quickly and brain storm different variations and applications of the move.

I'm pretty sure Marth's jump gets off the ground on frame 4. It's not huge but I suppose it could make a difference in a few select situations.

 

[Hunybear]

I'm pretty sure Marth's jump gets off the ground on frame 4. It's not huge but I suppose it could make a difference in a few select situations.

No he is airborne frame 5. His jump squat is 4 frames tho.
See under character traits in one of the links.

 

[dinn3rr]

I'm pretty sure Marth's jump gets off the ground on frame 4. It's not huge but I suppose it could make a difference in a few select situations.

It's airborne f5, squat is 4 frames. I've tested this in the lab, and have checked multiple times to see when and how a perfect WD is possible, along with instant uairs/fairs, SO yeah. It's airborne f5, you probably have it confused with it being 4 frames of jumpsquat.