Data [Community Project] Marth and Lucina's Ledge Traps

[Locuan]

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This thread's purpose is to log Marcina's options on the ledge. This includes both when ledge trapping opponents, or when Marth and Lucina are facing a ledge trap situation themselves. We are going to consider the best moves (or lack thereof) for trapping opponents on the ledge, what these options limit your opponent to do, and finding the optimal punishes for the responses your opponents take when that scenario is accomplished. On the flip-side, we will figure out which options are best when the opponent has us on a ledge trap situation. Let's begin. If possible provide images to further highlight the scenario.

Marcina trapping an opponent

Action | Covers | Opponents Action | Optimal Punish | Image
D-tilt | | | |

Marcina being trapped by an opponent

Opponents Action | Covers Our | Optimal Response | Image
Jab | | |

 

[Locuan]

Example Image covering D-tilt:

The blue boxes represent the options ZSS can take to avoid the d-tilt. The green box is Marth's sword, while the magenta boxes are where Marth and ZSS are currently at and can potentially get hurt. (I don't call them hitboxes/hurtboxes as they are assumptions/approximations).

 

[DariusM27]

I have a very specific usage of nair1 that I describe in the thread marth 1.1.1

The nair1 can be used to cover the ledge if opponent jumps, and you can then immediately follow up with a dtilt and or an up b, so if your objective is just to land a hit on the opponent, those options used, beginning with nair1, have a high success probability.

Even if they try to fall and airjump attack towards you, your nair1 hitbox may protect you, and if you wiff, you have minimal frames before you can react offensively or defensively.

Again, not a perfect killsetup by any means, but it's one of marth's better options in this situation

 

[H-O-G]

Up tilt is also a good option as a trap because it covers regular get up,jumps,and rolls

 

[Vipermoon]

Utilt is great but it doesn't have the active frames (or sufficient hitboxes) to reliably cover those things.

 

[Reizilla]

I've always been a fan of mixing up empty hop with SH Nair, but I usually time it to land right after the second hitbox. Is it safer to land with just Nair1?

 

[DariusM27]

I've always been a fan of mixing up empty hop with SH Nair, but I usually time it to land right after the second hitbox. Is it safer to land with just Nair1?

Nair1 is low risk high reward. I don't know that marth is ever safe. I guess it's safer than utilt or Fsmash for sure, lol.

 

[Locuan]

While what you are saying for N-air 1 makes sense, it's not a great option to use in my view. Let's compare Marth's N-air 1, to a character that uses N-air a lot for ledge traps (Ness).

Character | Move | Hitbox Start | Hitbox End | Total Frames
Marth | Nair 1 | 6 | 7 | 2
Ness | Nair (early) | 5 | 12 | 8
Ness | Nair (late) | 13 | 15 | 3

As we can see from the frame data, Nair 1 is only active for two frames. Compare that to Ness's; his Nair is active for 8 frames plus 3 more frames for the later portion of the move right after the first 8 frames end. In other words, 11 frames where the hitbox is just there. Ness can cover so many options with it if done correctly as well: jump, normal getup, rolls, getup attacks. In Marth's case we would also have to short hop, wait a few moments to start the fall animation, and then input N-air. I can see it working in a mix-up situation once we have conditioned an opponent to our better options but not much further than that.

 

[DariusM27]

While what you are saying for N-air 1 makes sense, it's not a great option to use in my view. Let's compare Marth's N-air 1, to a character that uses N-air a lot for ledge traps (Ness).

Character | Move | Hitbox Start | Hitbox End | Total Frames
Marth | Nair 1 | 6 | 7 | 2
Ness | Nair (early) | 5 | 12 | 8
Ness | Nair (late) | 13 | 15 | 3

As we can see from the frame data, Nair 1 is only active for two frames. I can see it working in a mix-up situation once we have conditioned an opponent to our better options but not much further than that.

Good points. However, of his areals nair1 has less landing lag than fair or bair, so you can throw out the nair1 as a read, and follow up with fair, db, or Fsmash as they may not expect you being able to attack so quickly

 

[Darklink401]

I have a very specific usage of nair1 that I describe in the thread marth 1.1.1

The nair1 can be used to cover the ledge if opponent jumps, and you can then immediately follow up with a dtilt and or an up b, so if your objective is just to land a hit on the opponent, those options used, beginning with nair1, have a high success probability.

Even if they try to fall and airjump attack towards you, your nair1 hitbox may protect you, and if you wiff, you have minimal frames before you can react offensively or defensively.

Again, not a perfect killsetup by any means, but it's one of marth's better options in this situation

We Melee?

I wanna experiment with dtilt (to cover normal getup/getup attack) to instant turn-around ftilt (to cover roll)

Wouldn't cover jump but hey, that's life.

 

[Vipermoon]

Dtilt has 2 active frames so it's tough to hit ledge grabs and ledge get-ups.

 

[Darklink401]

Dtilt has 2 active frames so it's tough to hit ledge grabs and ledge get-ups.

It's pretty fast tho si if they getup and you miss, just dtilt again. x3

 

[Vipermoon]

Exactly. You'll shield/spot dodge whatever they do or wait for the forward roll or go for the shield poke if they stay in shield. But if you specifically want the ledge grab punish you can probably get way more reward on a similar success rate with Fsmash.