Mario VS Doctor Mario

[dbzeenx]

So I've done a couple of matches in online mode against Dr. Mario and both him and Mario seem pretty close. To determine who, in my opinion, is the best, I'm gonna divide this into sections:


Speed

On this aspect, Mario has the upper hand obviously. He's able to move more fluidly and he's able to use his attacks faster.

Doctor Mario on the other hand is slower, but this is due to a trade-off that this character has. While this is true, the difference between their speeds isn't huge.

Winner: Mario

Power

That was the trade-off. Doctor Mario is more powerful. For example, the doc's forward smash does around 27%, while Mario's does around 23%. The gap between their speeds is the gap that Dr. Mario's power has over Mario.

Winner: Dr. Mario

Combos

Now, a lot of things have changed this time. Let's put it this way: When Dr. Mario hits, he does more damage, which implies that he has better KO attacks and his combos do more damage. Despite this, Mario has more speed, and it's harder to keep up doing combos as Doctor Mario. Mario's speed gives him more accuracy. I mean, if their speed gap was really tiny, then it wouldn't make a difference, but I'm giving this point to Mario. It really is that important their speed in this case. Also, Dr. Mario is more punishable due to its low speed (compared to Mario's)

Winner: Mario

Moveset

This is by far the most important thing overall. This is what truly makes a difference between the two. In this case, Doctor Mario has the old tornado-spin attack, while Mario has F.L.U.D.D.

Also their up special is different. Doctor Mario's is more like a one shot that sends the opponent further than Mario's, and Mario's is more of a constant bump with the enemy. The bad thing is Doctor Mario's attacks does less damage when it's in the air. One is better for recovering (to hit edge guarders) and the other to provide a killer move.

Doctor Mario's pills have been nerfed, while Mario's fireballs are like they've always been.

And now to the decisive aspect: FLUDD or the tornado attack?

Tornado attack: Does a good amount of damage and sends the opponent flying. Can be used for recover, and used to edge guard.

FLUDD: Now most of you say it's crap, it's useless and no one likes it, but this is not true. FLUDD has a lot of functions. First of all, you can use it to lag the opponent when they're in the air and then use forward smash to KO him. You can use it to move edge guarders.

For example: When you're trying to recover, quickly charge FLUDD and aim the water at them, this will push them back, and help you recover. If you manage to push them back (90% of the times) you have an almost warranteed recover. Also you can do this when they're jugging you.

You can use to lag them when they're coming at you, and then attack them by surpise. You can use it to edge guard. When they use their up special, use FLUDD and push them out of the stage, so they aren't able to recover.

But, I am not the one who's giving the point on this one. Why not this, YOU guys decide who wins! I'll make a poll so you guys decide!

 

[Blue Warrior]

Doc is essentially limited to a worse coin jump for recovery (no cape, I have yet to use tornado effectively for recovery online), and he's nowhere near as mobile or combo-centric as Mario. What that leaves him with is an alright ground game and decent KO power, which IMO isn't enough. He honestly just feels like a worse Little Mac to me. Maybe some of this would change with special moves, I dunno.

Mario's lacking in KO power, but he at least has an easier time getting to KO percents due to having good aerial strings, and if he gets knocked off stage it isn't game over.

 

[BBC7]

I'm just comparing the damage here:

Moves where Mario beats Dr. Mario:

D-Tilt(Mario 7%, Dr. Mario 5%)

Moves where Dr. Mario beats Mario:

U-Tilt(Mario 6%, Dr. Mario 7%)
F-Smash(Mario 14-19%, Dr. Mario 15-26%)
U-Smash(Mario 14-19%, Dr. Mario 15-21%)
D-Smash(Mario 10-14%, Dr. Mario 11-15%)
Back Throw(Mario 11%, Dr. Mario 12%)
Fair(Mario 14%, Dr. Mario 15%, although Mario can spike)
Bair(Mario 10%, Dr. Mario 13%)
Dair(Mario 7%, Dr. Mario 11%)
Up B(Mario 12%, Dr. Mario 13%, and Dr. Mario can kill at much earlier percents with Up B)
Down B(Mario 0%, Dr. Mario 8%, although this is like comparing apples and oranges)

Equal Damage:

Jab: 2%
Jab x2: 4%
Jab x3: 8%
F-Tilt: 7%
Pummel: 3%
Front Throw: 8%
Up Throw: 7%
Down Throw: 5%
Uair: 7%
Neutral B: 4-5%
Side B: 7%
Dash Attack: 8%
Nair: 8%

 

[Gawain]

I'm just comparing the damage here:

Moves where Mario beats Dr. Mario:

D-Tilt(Mario 7%, Dr. Mario 5%)
Nair(Mario 8%, Dr. Mario 5%)

Moves where Dr. Mario beats Mario:

U-Tilt(Mario 6%, Dr. Mario 7%)
F-Smash(Mario 14-19%, Dr. Mario 15-26%)
U-Smash(Mario 14-19%, Dr. Mario 15-21%)
D-Smash(Mario 10-14%, Dr. Mario 11-15%)
Back Throw(Mario 11%, Dr. Mario 12%)
Fair(Mario 14%, Dr. Mario 15%, although Mario can spike)
Bair(Mario 10%, Dr. Mario 13%)
Dair(Mario 7%, Dr. Mario 11%)
Up B(Mario 12%, Dr. Mario 13%, and Dr. Mario can kill at much earlier percents with Up B)
Down B(Mario 0%, Dr. Mario 8%, although this is like comparing apples and oranges)

Equal Damage:

Jab: 2%
Jab x2: 4%
Jab x3: 8%
F-Tilt: 7%
Pummel: 3%
Front Throw: 8%
Up Throw: 7%
Down Throw: 5%
Uair: 7%
Neutral B: 4-5%
Side B: 7%
Dash Attack: 8%

Damage isn't everything. Mario has better follow up options in general I feel. It's gonna come down to KO power, but both of them are great edge guarders. Personally I think Mario takes it because he builds percent a lot easier.

 

[Daytrip]

Personally, I'm rolling with reg. Mario for this iteration. If tourneys will allow custom moves, his FLUDD is awesome for ledge game. Along with fast straight fireballs :D

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I think Mario is better than Doc because he has faster attack speed and more combo potential. Having solid combos is crucial in a competitive environment, and Mario has a better handle on comboing (not that Doc isn't good at combos, either). Doc is also slightly slower than he was in melee. Despite Mario being weaker in KO power than Doc, it's not by much. Thus, I think Mario is more solid.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Mario is better because of his combo game, edgeguard game, recovery are all beter than Doc's in this game.

 

[BSP]

I'm just comparing the damage here:


F-Smash(Mario 14-19%, Dr. Mario 15-26%)

Are you sure about that one? I thought Mario's Fsmash still dealt respectable damage with the flame.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario is better because of his combo game, edgeguard game, recovery are all beter than Doc's in this game.

Edgeguard game is closer than you'd imagine. Mario Bairly wins on this but it is certainly not because of his Bair. He just has more offstage options and one more tool in FLUDD for it, but ledgesteal Bair is a reality for both of them and Doc's Bair is just a better move in general than Mario's.

If we want to talk about great OoS options I think Doc falls into this category of winning overall as well. His up+B sweetspot(which is not hard to hit with, as long as you hit on the first frame it works) is a great frame 1 reversal, almost Dolphin Slash tier, and it has decent KO potential and at the very least gets them off of you quickly (it can also be turned around after the first hit for a safer retreat should they survive)

As far as Doc v. Mario, on a whole tier scale basis I'd say Mario is better overall by 4-5 tier spots, maybe 6? But I imagine their MU against each other is either even or at worst 6-4 in favor of Mario. As a Doc main I can humbly admit that I think, atm, that Mario is better, but it's by no large margin. They are overall IMO, fairly close in terms of ranking but Doc is definitely worse overall. Way more fun though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's combo/edgeguard game isn't why he's better. Doc's a better character in terms of damage dealing and overall reward.

The real advantage to Mario is run speed. Seriously, that makes a huge difference between being walled out and getting U-smash juggles successfully.

 

[Coolwhip]

@ A2ZOMG You ghost. I haven't heard from you in years. lol

 

[MrM]

Doc is too slow and his down b isnt worth trading for fludd in this game

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG You ghost. I haven't heard from you in years. lol

But...I've been playing LoL and talking about it constantly.

Smash 4 is real though, so now I'm back here.

 

[Luigi#1]

I'm sorry, but I choose the Doc. Barely, but I'm meh with the FLUDD.

 

[MrM]

Mario that is all

 

[Anragon]

Doc is just a stronger version of Mario in terms of killing potential (Up-B OoS feels so reliable) and trading damages (14% B-air). Yet he suffers from shorter jumps and worse overall mobility.

Also mashing B for Doc's tornado to gain height is the hardest thing I have ever done on 3DS.

 

[N-TG]

Doc is a bit more powerful but I'll stick with Mario. While Mario has Fludd as his Down-B, he also has Doc's Down-B but as an Down Aerial attack, with that alone he can do a lot more better things and has more options to attack someone.

 

[younggunzgst]

After trying both, going to stick with Mario. Doc is a bit stronger but it's tough to get used to recovering with down B instead of caping. Doesn't come out as natural and I end up dying when I realize Docs cape doesn't do anything for recovery

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Mario's big weakness in Brawl was his inability to kill. Sm4sh Mario is essentially his Brawl iteration (with a few changes, none of which really help the weakness of being able to kill)

Doc, however, has absolutely no problem killing thanks to the good old Up-B. But he obviously is slower and has shorter jumps, and a few worse moves (Dair and Down B)

I actually can't figure out which character is worse. It's somewhat dependent on the meta, and somewhat matchup based. I may end up playing both characters once I get a better grasp of the game.

Unless custom moves are legal. In which case Mario also has a kill up-b, making him clearly better.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Both are really terrible. Even though Doc has more KO moves, he doesn't have a real way to land most of them except for B-air, and his slower run speed is disadvantageous when going for land traps.

Doc does slightly better in matchups where the focus is footsies and aerial spacing, which would be against characters like Falco, Jigglypuff, Metaknight, and Wario.

Mario does slightly better in situations where you need to rush down or edgeguard consistently. Basically against most predictable recoveries, and against Rosalina and Yoshi imo. Also FLUDD to push zoning characters to the ledge is something that Doc can't do.

Mario's probably slightly better overall because his mobility advantage is hard to ignore in neutral, and because FLUDD also gives him extra options for stage control and outplaying people.

 

[TTTTTsd]

All you have to do with Doc is play differently. He probably works better on Battlefield overall if you wanna rush down given the small size of the stage but if you're stuck on a slightly long one, just throw pills. No they're not godlike or combo starters but they do force a more linear approach from the ground if you do it right. At that point you have to rely on pure reflex.

Doc's Down-B can beat a LOT of things. It's not a godlike move but it definitely has good priority which is incredibly strange but useful.

Up+B OoS with Doc is an amazing option if you do it right and since the hit comes out on frame one it's a Dolphin Slash. Why WOULDN'T anyone mention this? It also kills at high percents (150% or so if you're lucky) so they have to respect it when they come at your shield.

DSmash only works as a mindgame if you open your opponent up since it hits behind for more knockback than it does in front. FSmash is super juicy but its range is low and its speed is mediocre, but it still works as a punish if you know what you're doing.
Doc's Dair is interestingly useful, can actually chase airdodgers and the nerf to SDI means it is reliable on most hits, but it's not a real go to. I have no idea if it still has the crazy disjoint it had in older games, but if you feel like throwing out an aerial on a full hop it should be this one. Sends people off the edge at an upwards angle which is good because Doc can not go out too far horizontally for any form of Bair blasting.

I think comparing these two to each other, at this point, is fairly difficult. You have to play them noticeably differently to succeed so I really can't consider them incredibly identical beyond animations. With Mario you use your mobility to your advantage, but with Doc it's a lot about the punish game in retrospect, less about the offense.

I wouldn't say either is outright terrible but mediocre for Mario and below average for Doc respectively is where I'd set them at the current moment.

 

[BSP]

Most people have said the important stuff, but in a nutshell

Doc:
Pros:
Better short hop by far.. Faster fall speed, which can be effective for escaping juggles or vertical oriented fighting in general. Much better Power in general. More damage per hit, and still has combos. Pills move at better angles than fireballs.

Cons: (Much?) worse mobility. Worse jump height. Worse air speed. Arguably worse recovery. Arguably worse at neutral. No cape stall = more commitment in order to change your vertical momentum in order to avoid juggles. Can't really play a rushdown strategy if necessary.

Mario:
Pros: Faster in air and on ground. Jumps higher. More mobility = more flexibility on combos and followups in general. Has to commit less to alter his vertical momentum. FLUDD for edge guarding and stage control.

Cons: weaker damage and knockback in general. Worse shorthop. Not having tornado can mean death sometimes. Worse at the trading game. Can't really kill well, at all.

I think Mario is slightly better because of mobility and how important it is. See Brawl Luigi: Pretty ridiculous moveset, but could not move well enough for it to be executed at full potential. That being said, I think they're really close though. Doc is going to be better in some MUs (MUs where being able to approach isn't as vital), Mario better in others (when rush down is necessary and movement is important).

 

[TTTTTsd]

I wanna add to this a bit by saying I think Doc outrights beats Mario on a certain stage in particular, or the gap is shortened even more between them, at the very least. On battlefield some of the Doc's mobility problems are a bit less severe (I believe it's smaller than FD but I'm not sure), but at the very least there are platforms that make his pill game a lot scarier and it's harder to camp/keep away characters, so I think the differences between Doc and Mario in terms of optimal performance also vary on stage. Just food for thought.