Mario for top tier?

[foxygrandpa]

I was playing around with him a little bit and realized how simple and powerful he is. He has a god like recovery, probably the best grabs in the game, and can gimp using the cape. Not to mention, fireballs cover every option during an approach.
I think he is definitely top tier in this, matching with fox and falco. What do other people think about him? What are some of his weaknesses?

 

[Ogopogo]

The biggest weakness he has might be his stumpy limbs. I think we talked about him a little in the Social or Tier List Speculation thread.

 

[G13_Flux]

well theres a lot of people i would put far before mario in relation to whos in the top tier, but ill definitely say mario should at least be in the high tier. range is definitely an issue. in some MUs, his fireball also is not as effective as you think, particularly those with good air to ground transition games and fast falling speeds. on that note, i would say marios worst MUs come from people who out do him in controlling air space. he has pretty decent mobility on the ground, and his fireballs dont make it easy for opponents, but if mario is put in the air against someone like wolf, CF, charizard, ROB, peach, pit, or others with noticeable aerial games, is not gonna good for the plumber.

i think the only other thing that would prevent mario from being top tier in my opinion in that while he does have good kill options, transitioning from combo to kill doesnt always chain together as efficiently as it does for some other characters. you start to see a lot of fsmashes and fairs being thrown out since you cant always get a reliable link to land that final blow.

 

[foxygrandpa]

well theres a lot of people i would put far before mario in relation to whos in the top tier, but ill definitely say mario should at least be in the high tier. range is definitely an issue. in some MUs, his fireball also is not as effective as you think, particularly those with good air to ground transition games and fast falling speeds. on that note, i would say marios worst MUs come from people who out do him in controlling air space. he has pretty decent mobility on the ground, and his fireballs dont make it easy for opponents, but if mario is put in the air against someone like wolf, CF, charizard, ROB, peach, pit, or others with noticeable aerial games, is not gonna good for the plumber.

i think the only other thing that would prevent mario from being top tier in my opinion in that while he does have good kill options, transitioning from combo to kill doesnt always chain together as efficiently as it does for some other characters. you start to see a lot of fsmashes and fairs being thrown out since you cant always get a reliable link to land that final blow.

I think he transitions into fair pretty well. Dtilt goes straight into it, as well as his throws and up air He has pretty great killing potential.

 

[G13_Flux]

it definitely does a good amount of the time on most at least semi fast falling characters, but ive still seen a good amount of matches where the mario couldnt quite land it. regardless, i still think mario is at least high tier, like i said. he definitely has great killing potential, i wasnt denying that, i was just saying i think there are at least a few characters that kill far more efficiently and reliably than mario does when looking across the board (ie. lucas, snake, shiek and zelda, space animals especially including wolf, bowser, peach... etc). mario would come not to far after those guys in my book. his biggest thing is that he really doesnt have a lot of polarizing weaknesses. he can transition from neutral to combo to kill relatively efficiently without being comboed or edgeguarded that much, and in many cases he beats out his opponents to get kills, lending him to win pretty often and be a popular contender.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think his D-tilt goes better into FSmash myself. If your opponent is on a slope it can go into itself at low enough percents, too. Just be sure to angle FSmash upwards.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

All of the bad match ups from melee are still here, plus, some new stuff, so no. But for high tier, yes. A lot of people agree on high tier for him. However, he doesn't have what it takes to be a top tier character.

 

[Mr.Random]

The biggest weakness he has might be his stumpy limbs. I think we talked about him a little in the Social or Tier List Speculation thread.

Those limbs......are soooo stubby lol. Imagine Mario with Marth range

 

[G13_Flux]

Thats like, imagining roy with jigglypuffs recovery.. lmao. like, that is something that would belong in brawl minus haha.

 

[GeZ]

I agree and disagree with the proclamation that Mario isn't top tier potential. I think he has the fixings of a subtle top tier character. One who has no apparent top tier trick or move, but has all the tools to body most of the cast for free with a smart enough player. I'm hopeful we get someone like that to champion this character, because until then, my belief of Mario's strengths won't get any validation.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I agree and disagree with the proclamation that Mario isn't top tier potential. I think he has the fixings of a subtle top tier character. One who has no apparent top tier trick or move, but has all the tools to body most of the cast for free with a smart enough player. I'm hopeful we get someone like that to champion this character, because until then, my belief of Mario's strengths won't get any validation.

I think that he has all the tools to be considered around the top. The difference between him and spacies are that mario is pretty basic to play. I think that any sort of player on a high level would be able to play relatively well with him, considering how easy he is to pick up. What does anyone think mario's weaknesses are?

 

[666blaziken]

He decimates lucas pretty badly

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Mario is my favorite character in Project M, and he definitely has the tools to take every character on. Even if he's not the top character in the game, his match-ups are even, more than much of the cast, so he should be able to handle everyone at 50/50 or better.

The plumber needs more love though and high tier players who pick him up and love him like we do.

 

[Kaeldiar]

After watching PikaChad and Kirk play Mario in TBH3, I think he has top tier potential, but he's at least high tier. Fireballs combo into darn near anything, fair, f-smash, and d-smash all KO well. He has the speed to get around, the strength to finish, the ability to combo, and a great recovery. Lack of range is the only thing that kills him. He sort of has fireballs to deal with that, but he has to get in close for a good hit.

 

[Mr.Random]

After watching PikaChad and Kirk play Mario in TBH3, I think he has top tier potential, but he's at least high tier. Fireballs combo into darn near anything, fair, f-smash, and d-smash all KO well. He has the speed to get around, the strength to finish, the ability to combo, and a great recovery. Lack of range is the only thing that kills him. He sort of has fireballs to deal with that, but he has to get in close for a good hit.

I think he's fantastic. Also I think the reason Chad lost was due to MU inexperience because there were tons of times where he could of capitalized on things (like not grabbing enough). Kirk took advantage of every punish Chad missed. Chad is still very talented but he needs to fight Bowser more. Bowser is a noob slayer character so if you don't know his gimmicks you will lose.

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

mario is a fantastic character. I'm a mario mainer and I gotta say I'm pretty good actually really good. if you have good reflexes, you can punish almost anything with his fast attacks. He has a few good out of Shield options, like his B-up, down smash, up tilt, and forward tilt. When short jumped, neutral-air, up-air, and down-air are all good out of shield options when used in the right situation. His fireballs might not be the best projectile in the world, but they're good at stopping your opponent from approaching to recklessly and set up combos. examples are Firlball to down-throw then follow up, fire ball up or forward tilt or into a smash. His approach might be a little Limited, but short hop fireballs, back-air, and down air are decent Options. His combo ability is basic, but effective. his cape oh my god all I can say is its amazing there's to much to saw aboat this move. His grabs are also really good. Back and forward throw do good damage and set up for edge gardening and his down throw is a great combo starter. but Mario does have a few problems though Like range, a little weak in most moves and a recovery that is easily Gimped and predictable. But that could be slightly patched my gimpying your opponent, edge guarding and fireballs at the edge Guarder. there's a lot of tricks and techniques that he can use but its too much to explain here. I really like Mario's moveset. its so versatile That with the right hands , he can be a really great contender for top tier.representing the plumber 100 percent all the way.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Mario
''Jack of all trades, master of none''
But yea Mario is definitely a top tier character.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Mario
''Jack of all trades, master of none''
But yea Mario is definitely a top tier character.

This was his flaw up until P:M, but I think that his buffs gave him enough to work with so that he can fair (not f-air) well against any character, rather than any character fairing well against him.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

This was his flaw up until P:M, but I think that his buffs gave him enough to work with so that he can fair (not f-air) well against any character, rather than any character fairing well against him.

Most definitely. P:M Mario is without a doubt, the best version of Mario in any smash bros game.

 

[uCooL]

Most definitely. P:M Mario is without a doubt, is the best version of Mario in any smash bros game.

i agree

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

Most definitely. P:M Mario is without a doubt, is the best version of Mario in any smash bros game.

Your absolutely Right. I just got on pm Mario and I got to say. wow I crazy things I could do with him plus more. My game with Mario on basic Brawl was a mix of pressurring mix ups, defensive play, edge guarding. and air combat. Pm alone me to retain my play style plus more options.

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

Your absolutely Right. I just got on pm Mario and I got to say. wow I can do all the crazy things with him plus more. My game with Mario on basic Brawl was a mix of pressurring mix ups, defensive play, edge guarding, and air combat. Pm a lot allows me to retain my play style plus more options. Can't wait to get better with this new Mario.

 

[DanlulZ]

mario is in a pretty sweet place of course there will be problems with projectile spamemrs buts thats just how they are. definitely a impactful character

 

[deadjames]

It's hard to say if Mario is top tier or not. He has lots of favorable and even MUs, but he still struggles against most of the same characters he did in Melee, Sheik and Ganon being the exceptions those MUs are much more manageable now, then there's also some characters that give him trouble now that didn't used to like Link, Roy, and Zelda. That being said I don't think any of his bad MUs are more than a slight disadvantage.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

All of the bad match ups from melee are still here plus, some new stuff, so no. But for high tier, yes. A lot of people agree on high tier for him. However, he doesn't have what it takes to be a top tier character.

I agree and disagree with the proclamation that Mario isn't top tier potential. I think he has the fixings of a subtle top tier character. One who has no apparent top tier trick or move, but has all the tools to body most of the cast for free with a smart enough player. I'm hopeful we get someone like that to champion this character, because until then, my belief of Mario's strengths won't get any validation.

/thread

Edit: I'd argur his bad MU, like the ones that are pretty bad, like Marth, are more than a slightly losing MU.

 

[deadjames]

After watching this weeks S@X, I'm convinced that Boss is the hero Mario needs. Anyway, I don't think Marth is worse than -1. You just have to play a little safer than usual and constantly be aware of the possibility of being tippered.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

After watching this weeks S@X, I'm convinced that Boss is the hero Mario needs. Anyway, I don't think Marth is worse than -1. You just have to play a little safer than usual and constantly be aware of the possibility of being tippered.

I don't know about you, but every time I have seen Marth v mario in PM, the mario only wins because the Marth is bad and stupid. In melee, I've seen shroomed just give up the doc vs Marth MU as well, not saying it was anywhere near even, but that was something he was good at. I keep seeing people say the MU, isn't that bad, but I just haven't seen any videos. I would like some PM video proof to show the MU isn't as bad as I think because, talk is cheap.

I feel the match up is 70:30 or 65:35 based on what I've seen and what I have personally experienced.

 

[CyberZixx]

Mario is easily top tier.

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

He was a problem before Now he can manage better and even flat out **** him on the edge (Though he kills you there too if Givin the chance. like deadjames says, play a bit safer aginst him marths tippers ****. Also keep the fight near the ground. he Will kill mario if hes under you.him also dont charge at marth. Let him come to you. Yes he can Swat b with fair. But Thats what you want h im to do. heThen punish Just watch out for counter. Theres Alot More i can say. But im out of time. Over all the match is about 50/50

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

He was a problem before Now he can manage better and even flat out **** him on the edge (Though he kills you there too if Givin the chance. like deadjames says, play a bit safer aginst him marths tippers ****. Also keep the fight near the ground. he Will kill mario if hes under you.him also dont charge at marth. Let him come to you. Yes he can Swat b with fair. But Thats what you want h im to do. heThen punish Just watch out for counter. Theres Alot More i can say. But im out of time. Over all the match is about 50/50

Marth without a jump is easy to edge guard. A good player will RARELY be caught off stage without a jump.

Playing safe? Meaning what? Do nothing that can't be punished? Yea, it's like no one that ever comments in this section has played a GOOD Marth player.

Keeping the fight on the ground still works in marth's favor(his air game>yours). He out ranges all of Mario's ground game and tippers are 100% safe, even on shield. His grabs will destroy you and edge guarding you is just a bair or two and you're done. If you live, well congrations! You're about to get bair'd a ****ing again. He will kill mario any and every where. You'll be lucky if he lets you cp a stage with space and a wall for you to wall jump.

Lmao at fair'ing my fireballs. Ok, if I do a standing fireball, Marth can ether respond with a fair or a double fair sh. What does this do for each character you think? Ok, so mario forces Marth to fair, that's sick you're controlling him!! That's what you think is happening anyway. This is what goes on in marth's head, alright sick, he's fireballing me, let me fair/double fair sh towards him. That standing fireball benefits Marth more than it does you. He gets more stage control/takes away some of what you have, he gets to set up a defensive wall, as well as an offensive wall and he gets some momentum. If you do a sh fireball, it's even worse for you, wether you do it away or towards him. Full hop fireball isn't to bad if you have a platform to land on but meh. Fair/double fair sh have very little landing lag if not NONE AT ALL. Fireball does nothing in neutral against him.

Like I've said, I'm tired of hearing this MU is anything CLOSE to even. It's a flat out BAD MU. If you would like to, "explain" why it isn't, DON'T, unless you have a video to showcase as well. Because you can, "theory craft" all day, but unless you have actually video proof,of two equally skilled players going head to head and mario wins, don't even waste your time responding. This pretty much goes out to anyone reading my post.

 

[deadjames]

By your logic, you're theory crafting as well because you've yet to post a video illustrating how bad the MU is for Mario.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

By your logic, you're theory crafting as well because you've yet to post a video illustrating how bad the MU is for Mario.

I posted a video of myself in the crit my mario thread. I played against a player known as "Atlas" not sure if you have heard of him, he is 2nd best player in my state only because Esam goes to college here atm. He "might" be able to beat him in PM, I'm not sure. I have also went to pretty big tournament not to to long ago, KiT. It was in Tennessee. I ended up getting knocked out of that tournament by a player named .NITE(Marth player). He got 4th in the whole thing. I lost every Marth v Mario match against him. We roomed in the same house and I could never win against his Marth. I could beat his other characters, but that MU is ass. even he and a lot of other notable/good players like Ryker etc believe the MU is horrid. That tournament also had Pikachad, M2K, Kman and a few other notable names in it, so that tournament was by no means, "free." Not sure if that means much, but yea.
Also, every video on YouTube for PM with Marth vs Mario that I have seen, Marth wins because the MU is so far in his favor or mario wins because the Marth is a bad player or a stupid one at that.
I posted my video, where is everyone else's backing what they are saying? My skill level wasn't on par with the Marth I admit, but even so, I see no videos backing what I hear.

 

[GeZ]

I wouldn't say the matchup is 50/50 and I tend to agree with ez more on how difficult it is with a few exceptions to what Mario can punish and how effective his fireball game can be.

Marth's spacing and ground game is fast as hell but Mario can keep up with it, the problem lies in Marth's stupid good reach and Mario's tiny infant arms and legs. Mario can use his fireballs to his advantage as shield grabbing baited Fair's can work, especially if they use the first one to eat your fireball and the second one to move in on you, making their spacing a bit worse placed. also Tippered Fsmash can probably be punished by WD grab.

Edgeguarding is not as hopeless as you'd say but it's not near easy. If you time that **** really well ledgedrop Bair can trade with his Up B, and when it does it's in your favor. Mario also has all the options to stall when recovering making edgeguarding him at least not straight forward. And if you're above the ledge throwing fireballs can help a lot.

My experience with the matchup is colored by fighting exclusively players much better than me, but I would say that Mario is helped by his relatively uncomfortable comboability when being hit. But Marth still does have mad tools to **** with you. To win Mario needs to chase off the ledge, and do it well because you'll get ****ed otherwise, pressure Marth whenever you get in is he doesn't have the best OoS options, and above all, never give in, never surrender.

But seriously, this matchup is ass, ez is right, ****s hard.

 

[deadjames]

I still don't agree. Imo Mario's only bad MU that's more than slightly disadvantageous is Fox.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I still don't agree. Imo Mario's only bad MU that's more than slightly disadvantageous is Fox.

You should try going to some nationals or even some locals. Don't forget to come back with some videos.

 

[deadjames]

You should try going to some nationals or even some locals. Don't forget to come back with some videos.

I host/attend locals all the time you can check my ranking if you need proof and I don't have money to travel, but I can beat every Marth in my area. I also have a few videos posted on the Mario threads, but none of them are against Marth.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I host/attend locals all the time you can check my ranking if you need proof and I don't have money to travel, but I can beat every Marth in my area. I also have a few videos posted on the Mario threads, but none of them are against Marth.

I could care less about rank, unless you are the best player for your character. I'm curious to see the skill level of those you play, because I find it humerus for someone to say, "fox is the only losing MU and it happens to ONLY be a slightly disadvantaged MU at that." You have got to be playing against some subpar players.

Please stop being so blindly biased. It give me head ache long time, it does. Much hurt. Many feels.

 

[GeZ]

I like both of you guys so I'm going to derail this before it gets any worse-

STAHP

We should instead focus on how to improve our time in the matchup, no matter how easy or difficult we find it. That way, everyone improves and we can all be mustachio'd friends. Pretty please?

 

[deadjames]

I could care less about rank, unless you are the best player for your character. I'm curious to see the skill level of those you play, because I find it humerus for someone to say, "fox is the only losing MU and it happens to ONLY be a slightly disadvantaged MU at that." You have got to be playing against some subpar players.

Please stop being so blindly biased. It give me head ache long time, it does. Much hurt. Many feels.

This is the last thing I'll say about the matter because I want to follow GeZ's example, but I never said Fox is Mario's only losing MU, I said I think it's his worst. Falco, Marth, and Peach are also hard for Mario in my experience, but imo they're more manageable than Fox.

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

I like both of you guys so I'm going to derail this before it gets any worse-

STAHP
We should instead focus on how to improve our time in the matchup, no matter how easy or difficult we find it. That way, everyone improves and we can all be mustachio'd friends. Pretty please?

Well said