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Mario: Buffed or Nerfed?

D

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I hear a lot of people saying my boy, "Jumpman Mario", has been "Nerfed to Oblivion", just because his brain dead grab combos are no more. I think people are overreacting a bit, as I believe my boi is just as good as in Smash 4. Yeah sure, he can't get 55% off of one grab, but he has gotten some buffs. F.L.U.D.D has been but, as well ax Cape and his aerials. The only thing Mario has that sucks is his pathetic Final Smash and his lame Victory Animations. Thoughts?
 

Shmickle

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I agree. I feel like I play him better in ultimate than I ever could in 4. He can still pull off down throw combos at mid percentages and up throw combos at low percentages. Call it a nerf if you may, but I think it's just a matter of adjusting to the differences.
 
D

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Mario's final smash seems worse than in Smash 4. In some cases, it won't kill at 110%
 
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D

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If they wanted to get lazy but not not lame, they could've made it DK's FS, but with the punching glove hat from Odyssey.
 

UltimateXsniper

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Yeah his grabs are definitely nerfed but so are a lot of characters really. Mario is still pretty good and I can't see him being lower than high. His cape definitely seems to have longer range and his aerial game is still pretty sharp. I personally just upthrow and uair for combo's as that's pretty easy and then shift to dthrow uair whenever the percentage is too high for uthrow but the percentage is good enough for dthrow. Still a pretty decent threat in terms of grabs. Although I think I can technically say he's more on the nerfed side but so are other characters with good grabs in 4, which is why I believe he'll still hang in high tier.
 

Diddy Kong

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He became even more opressive in the air, just like Yoshi, and now also Wario. I am having a hard time with them as Diddy. His aerials seem faster, F Air hits more consistant and easier, N Air is still probably about one of the best sex kicks, D Air seems better, Fire Balls faster, Smash attack stronger. He's just like a couple of other Smash 4 Top Tiers; changed, and retooled and old stuff isn't possible anymore, but still great. Diddy and Mewtwo are much in the same position.
 
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His grab game being Nerfed is good, because now, low tier mains will stop calling us Brain Dead.
 

MarioMeteor

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He’s definitely nerfed, that much is fact. Some of them were a bit excessive, like nerfing the range on his up tilt and the combo ability of his down tilt, but generally I think he’s a lot fairer now. His diverse moveset and agility allow to him to still be good while also being much more fun to fight.

I do wish they gave him something in the range department, though, because fighting sword characters might be even more painful than it’s ever been before.
 

Vidd

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Watching pro matches, the amount of work that Mario has to do is just depressing. Watching his up-tilt fail when the opponent's right next to him is disgusting.

I expected him to be worse, but not as bad as this.
 
D

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Watching pro matches, the amount of work that Mario has to do is just depressing. Watching his up-tilt fail when the opponent's right next to him is disgusting.

I expected him to be worse, but not as bad as this.
Rest assured, Mario is not "bad". Players just need to realize that this isn't Sm4sh, and some old stuff just won't work anymore.
 

Hat N' Clogs

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He’s definitely nerfed, that much is fact. Some of them were a bit excessive, like nerfing the range on his up tilt and the combo ability of his down tilt, but generally I think he’s a lot fairer now. His diverse moveset and agility allow to him to still be good while also being much more fun to fight.
I would say that he is nerfed, and I would slightly buff a couple of his moves. However, overall he still has decent enough KO options and great combo potential.

Also, on the down tilt point...from what I can tell, down tilt actually combos just as well as it did in Smash 4; perhaps better in some circumstances due to the dash cancel tilt mechanic found in Ultimate.


There was a problem fetching the tweet
Here's another example of a combo showing off some of his moves. His aerials seem to be just as good as in Smash 4 overall, if not better. While his up air got slightly nerfed in range, it's faster and connects into itself and other moves more efficiently.
 
D

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I would say that he is nerfed, and I would slightly buff a couple of his moves. However, overall he still has decent enough KO options and great combo potential.

Also, on the down tilt point...from what I can tell, down tilt actually combos just as well as it did in Smash 4; perhaps better in some circumstances due to the dash cancel tilt mechanic found in Ultimate.


There was a problem fetching the tweet
Here's another example of a combo showing off some of his moves. His aerials seem to be just as good as in Smash 4 overall, if not better. While his up air got slightly nerfed in range, it's faster and connects into itself and other moves more efficiently.
True gamers use the wedding alt.
 

Felancius

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The only thing nerfed was his down throw combo is what it came off as to me, as well as the removal of chain grabbing. (The down-throw up-tilt combo is still possible on Doctor Mario kinda). Other things like his up-throw, cape, F.L.U.D.D. and combogame for Up-B feel a lot stronger to me when I play him he's one of my seven secondaries. Overall, I think he's been buffed, but takes just a little more practice to use now, and is still excellent for beginners.
 
D

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Mario's been doing exceptionally well at tournaments. I think he's a solid A-Tier
 
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Hat N' Clogs

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Mario's been doing exceptionally well at tournaments. I think he's a solid A-Tier
I agree.

I've noticed that players have been accepting and mindful concerning Mario's tweeked combos, and he still has incredible combos. Heck, with SJP being buffed in knockback, you can now pull off a zero to death even EASIER through ladder combos in this game than in Smash 4.

While Mario's range on a couple of his moves got reduced, his combos seem just as good...perhaps even slightly better. And, with the consistent tournament results lately, I'm thinking he's a high tier at the moment.
Meanwhile Luigi's results have been up and down and Doc has been drowning.
 

SmokeOut

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How does everyone feel about :ultmario: now that more time has gone by? I feel like he is being under rated by some and over rated by others. It seems some players are writing him off as unviable (Leffen/Zero)and then I notice commentators for Zenyou and mastamario weeklies talk as if he's braindead, gets everything for free and has no bad match ups.

I personally think he is fine aside from needing horizontal range increased on up tilt (I notice the fist occasionally phase right through the opponent). Other than that, he feels as good as he's ever been (3.0 PM aside). I personally love Mario in smash and have mained him since melee. He's still as fun to play as he is to watch. He's explosive with crazy combos and fair spikes, his dair kills and combos and ladder combos can take a stock pretty early sometimes. Bair is a great spacer, combo move and can kill with an edge guard. I could go on, I'm honestly not sure if he has a single worthless move.

Sure he still struggles with swords and other disjoints like he always has, but I still don't understand why he doesn't get more love. Does anyone know why he's being over looked and why some smash 4 mains dropped him like Ally/Anti and even Zenyou has been playing Cloud recently.

I'll continue to use him anyway, but I wanted to hear other's opinions on what he might need, if anything, to change him for the better.
 

Wumbo105

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How does everyone feel about :ultmario: now that more time has gone by? I feel like he is being under rated by some and over rated by others. It seems some players are writing him off as unviable (Leffen/Zero)and then I notice commentators for Zenyou and mastamario weeklies talk as if he's braindead, gets everything for free and has no bad match ups.

I personally think he is fine aside from needing horizontal range increased on up tilt (I notice the fist occasionally phase right through the opponent). Other than that, he feels as good as he's ever been (3.0 PM aside). I personally love Mario in smash and have mained him since melee. He's still as fun to play as he is to watch. He's explosive with crazy combos and fair spikes, his dair kills and combos and ladder combos can take a stock pretty early sometimes. Bair is a great spacer, combo move and can kill with an edge guard. I could go on, I'm honestly not sure if he has a single worthless move.

Sure he still struggles with swords and other disjoints like he always has, but I still don't understand why he doesn't get more love. Does anyone know why he's being over looked and why some smash 4 mains dropped him like Ally/Anti and even Zenyou has been playing Cloud recently.

I'll continue to use him anyway, but I wanted to hear other's opinions on what he might need, if anything, to change him for the better.
He's a top 20 character I don't care what Zero's list says. Swordies are his only unfavorable matchups (and Palu) and he does really well against a lot of the top meta picks right now. I can't think of a single thing I would want fixed on him, he's excellently balanced. Maaaaaybe the utilt horizontal range as you said, but even then that's nitpicking and might make his comboing too easy to pull off.
 

Hat N' Clogs

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He's a top 20 character I don't care what Zero's list says. Swordies are his only unfavorable matchups (and Palu) and he does really well against a lot of the top meta picks right now. I can't think of a single thing I would want fixed on him, he's excellently balanced. Maaaaaybe the utilt horizontal range as you said, but even then that's nitpicking and might make his comboing too easy to pull off.
Zero has had a history of underrating regular mario and overrating doc. But, he isnt too far off from where I think Mario should be.

On zero's list, mario is close to the top of mid tier. For me, he is on the lower end of high tier. MK Leo also had Mario in high tier last time I checked, so the plumber could still be seen as viable anyway.

Besides, mid tier in this game is better than in past smash games due to this game being much better balanced than most past smash games. So, mario and his mains still have hope.
 

Wumbo105

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Besides, mid tier in this game is better than in past smash games due to this game being much better balanced than most past smash games. So, mario and his mains still have hope.
Yes and no. The increased size of the roster also means that being mid tier means there are significantly more characters ahead of you, just from a numbers standpoint. And I can't justify that many characters being ahead of Mario...he's solidly high tier.
 
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Zero has had a history of underrating regular mario and overrating doc. But, he isnt too far off from where I think Mario should be.

On zero's list, mario is close to the top of mid tier. For me, he is on the lower end of high tier. MK Leo also had Mario in high tier last time I checked, so the plumber could still be seen as viable anyway.

Besides, mid tier in this game is better than in past smash games due to this game being much better balanced than most past smash games. So, mario and his mains still have hope.
For me, Mario is nearly top-tier. The only things holding him back are a lack of range, and a so-so recovery that's pretty easily gimped.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Mario is cool.

He could probably stay the same and he'd be fine.
Although I kind of want his old horizontal hitbox on Up-Tilt again. (Doc as well)
 
D

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Mario is cool.

He could probably stay the same and he'd be fine.
Although I kind of want his old horizontal hitbox on Up-Tilt again. (Doc as well)
I don't really think Mario needs that old up-tilt. Players just need to be more experimental with his throws and aerials.
 

SmokeOut

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I think the janky hitbox has something to do with the z axis. That or the hit box needs to start lower and follow the fist. His fist goes right through the opponent at times and the moves misses when they are right next to you and it shouldn't. It definitely doesn't have anything to do with needing to be more experimental.
 
D

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I think the janky hitbox has something to do with the z axis. That or the hit box needs to start lower and follow the fist. His fist goes right through the opponent at times and the moves misses when they are right next to you and it shouldn't. It definitely doesn't have anything to do with needing to be more experimental.
I thought it was because the down throw had more knockback
 

SmokeOut

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I'm not talking about d-throw uptilt combos from smash 4. Those can stay gone. I'm talking solely about uptilt. If you experiment in ttraining mode against different characters, you would know what I mean. You can walk right up next to shorter members of the cast, then uptilt and watch Marios fist go right through them. On taller characters it usually only happens when they are in hit stun. For example, I'll try a fast fall fair to uptilt and will find the same issue.
 
D

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I'm not talking about d-throw uptilt combos from smash 4. Those can stay gone. I'm talking solely about uptilt. If you experiment in ttraining mode against different characters, you would know what I mean. You can walk right up next to shorter members of the cast, then uptilt and watch Marios fist go right through them. On taller characters it usually only happens when they are in hit stun. For example, I'll try a fast fall fair to uptilt and will find the same issue.
I hope they kill those Z-Axis issues in 3.0
 

DunnoBro

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After more time with the character, and this game; I've changed my mind on this.

Mario's been nerfed pretty damn hard. Both directly, and simply due to the engine change. He feels extremely underwhelming, and likely around mid-tier.

-Inability to dash through pretty much removed the ability for bthrow to kill at decent percents vs decent players

-Directional airdodge actual hurt mario more than it helps. His lack of range/speed doesn't allow him to sufficiently punish these reliably. Whereas in smash 4, his superb frame data let him just keep putting out hitboxes. Some common situations are an opponent with no jump, or disjoints trying to land. Mario could simply keep usmashing/bairing. Or Dthrow > Uair attempt, but they airdodge. So mario just nair/uairs again. This isn't possible here.

-Even his edgeguarding is actually worse. The loss of magnet hands restricts Mario's reach offstage by a fair margin. And again, Mario isn't particularly well equipped to punish directional airdodges, or even opponents who have used up their directional airdodge towards the stage. Furthermore, the dynamic of fthrow + dthrow is totally gone. In smash 4, if many characters DI'd Fthrow out, it'd set up for better edgeguards. So many worse recovery chars would DI in, which would make Dthrow combo/kill better. Now, even DI In dthrow doesn't combo into anything meaningful at higher percent.

-In disadvantage, mario much preferred the old airdodge for himself, too. Being able to drift with his air speed, with low lag enabled him to punish combo attempts. (Like double jump uair/dair/sjp to counter kill vertical combos, or just bair/nair horizontal ones)

And one of the worst nerfs, is the overall ease, and reward for approaching.

Mario's greatest attribute in smash 4 were his out of shield options. And shield itself was a better out of dash option.

Once cornered (often aided by FLUDD) and Mario approaches an opponent, he'd take one of three options generally.

1: Dash Grab to punish shield (Dashthrough pivot grab to kill)
2: Dash shield to punish attack/roll
3: Bair/Usmash to punish jump/spot dodge

In smash 4, the percents Mario still got notable reward off grab while the opponent also being in usmash kill percent overlapped a fair bit. Giving them a reason to not just hold shield.

Now? Now at all. Usmash kills later, throws stop comboing sooner.

The fact shields stale moves further hurts this dynamic.

Dash shield is also a largely non-viable option. So the entire flowchart for his approach, and reason he was a good character to begin with is gone.

Overall; Doing damage is harder, killing is harder, recovering is harder, neutral is harder. Some things are nice. Like dash pivot fsmash. Or dash dtilt > bair (In smash 4, dtilt was glitched and didn't allow mario to turn around) The new momentum burst from bair makes it a much better approach and oos option. (Though shield staling makes it a worse kill move)

2-framing with dash attack is probably the best thing in ultimate, though it only makes a handful of matchups notably better.

But he just feels extremely underwhelming and honestly boring. Can't combo, can't edgeguard, can't ledge trap, all you can do is throw out safeish smashes or damage them until bthrow kills across the stage.
 
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Wumbo105

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But he just feels extremely underwhelming and honestly boring. Can't combo, can't edgeguard, can't ledge trap, all you can do is throw out safeish smashes or damage them until bthrow kills across the stage
This alone shows that you either have not spent enough time with Mario, aren't using him correctly at all, or just plain don't understand how to play Smash.

...How in the HELL are you gonna say he can't combo when he's easily in the top 3 most combo oriented characters in the game? That's like saying Olimar has trouble racking up %. His edgeguarding is fantastic with how fast bair is and how long nair lasts, and Fludd messes with quite a big chunk of the cast.

He has amazing frame data and ground/air movement, an absolutely *smothering* advantage state, *TWO* separate frame-3 OoS options, and only has 5-6 unfavorable matchups in the *entire game*. You can't tell me you've watched the likes of Dark Wizzy/Mastamario/Ally/Prodigy and still say he's a mid tier. Literally every list that has come out from every pro have put him solidly in high tier. He's a top 20-25 character in this game, and if you think otherwise you need to re-evaluate how you're approaching this game completely. He feels underwhelming to you because you have no idea how to use him, but don't blame the character.
 
D

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This alone shows that you either have not spent enough time with Mario, aren't using him correctly at all, or just plain don't understand how to play Smash.

...How in the HELL are you gonna say he can't combo when he's easily in the top 3 most combo oriented characters in the game? That's like saying Olimar has trouble racking up %. His edgeguarding is fantastic with how fast bair is and how long nair lasts, and Fludd messes with quite a big chunk of the cast.

He has amazing frame data and ground/air movement, an absolutely *smothering* advantage state, *TWO* separate frame-3 OoS options, and only has 5-6 unfavorable matchups in the *entire game*. You can't tell me you've watched the likes of Dark Wizzy/Mastamario/Ally/Prodigy and still say he's a mid tier. Literally every list that has come out from every pro have put him solidly in high tier. He's a top 20-25 character in this game, and if you think otherwise you need to re-evaluate how you're approaching this game completely. He feels underwhelming to you because you have no idea how to use him, but don't blame the character.
Mario's tilts, throws and aerials are some of the best combo starters in the game, he has extremely good frame data, great edge guarding tools, and good tournament results to show for it. If he WAS nerfed, it clearly wasn't enough
 

DunnoBro

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Mario's tilts, throws and aerials are some of the best combo starters in the game, he has extremely good frame data, great edge guarding tools, and good tournament results to show for it. If he WAS nerfed, it clearly wasn't enough
None of his tilts combo as well as old dthrow, except dtilt at very magic percents/positioning.

His edgeguarding is actually trash. Because those tools are ONLY for edgeguarding.

Cape is slow, halts forward momentum, loses to disjoints, and mario's lack of reach offstage only makes it a threat after requirements are met. (Their recovery just being that bad, having sniped their jump, etc)

Literally any fair faster than frame ten (almost all of them) is more of a threat than cape.

And FLUDD is a better neutral and ledge trap tool than edgeguard except in very specific matchups, but even then; You need to meet several requirements before it's a threat usually.

His bair is a very linear hitbox, and being a bair on a short recovery char limits it's range of effect heavily. Unlike upward swoop bairs like Marth, Cloud, DK, Sonic, etc; It can't cover both jump, and fall. Again, largely requiring they be caught simply off guard, or have no jump. It's lack of strength, and poor angle also provide little reward until percents it just plain kills. So bair demands little respect.

As for results; Like I said, Mario is a mid-tier. He's not non-viable. And his results are pretty much in-line with a mid-tier, especially if you consider the ones getting results with have have been playing him for 3+ years. (And most of the better results are from the very start of the game)

I could be wrong. But like, most top players agree with me he's middish/low high tier. And every objective, observable measure also supports that theory. Only character specialists have been generating any sort of results with him.

This alone shows that you either have not spent enough time with Mario, aren't using him correctly at all, or just plain don't understand how to play Smash.

...How in the HELL are you gonna say he can't combo when he's easily in the top 3 most combo oriented characters in the game? That's like saying Olimar has trouble racking up %. His edgeguarding is fantastic with how fast bair is and how long nair lasts, and Fludd messes with quite a big chunk of the cast.

He has amazing frame data and ground/air movement, an absolutely *smothering* advantage state, *TWO* separate frame-3 OoS options, and only has 5-6 unfavorable matchups in the *entire game*. You can't tell me you've watched the likes of Dark Wizzy/Mastamario/Ally/Prodigy and still say he's a mid tier. Literally every list that has come out from every pro have put him solidly in high tier. He's a top 20-25 character in this game, and if you think otherwise you need to re-evaluate how you're approaching this game completely. He feels underwhelming to you because you have no idea how to use him, but don't blame the character.
I'm actually fairly confident I've played him more than you, at least. In both games. And I'd appreciate you not defaulting to knee-jerk claims of a lack of experience while I live in a major smash area with tournaments nearly every day of the week. (MD/VA)

And his combo game is fine. But hardly top 3. Like, what is he even comboing off that well? For that long? Even doctor mario has more consistent combos from all starters at more percents. More kill confirms too. That claim is just resoundingly false.

As for edgeguarding; No. It's not fantastic. For reasons I've explained above. But I understand how one might be confused considering his specific tools for edgeguarding in FLUDD/Cape. And it's far harder to prove or disprove just how good a character's edgeguarding is.

But In those players you listed, very rarely do they generate stocks from edgeguards against better players. You'll have to research this for yourself, but I'm confident you'll come to the same conclusion as me if done properly.

And 'literally every top player's lists have him high tier'? ZeRo has him in C, actually. So hardly 'literally every.' But yes, many have him hover around mid/high tier. And I never claimed they were very far off.

Again though, I could be wrong. But clearly not for the reasons contested here. They're more than palpably untrue, but you're welcome to see how the Mario Meta plays out for itself. If my claims become more obvious with time, but I'm afraid I won't be spending much more time in the Mario section to continue explaining my reasoning. So you'll have to be content with what I've provided so far.
 
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Wumbo105

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Oh my goodness, where do I begin.

And his combo game is fine. But hardly top 3. Like, what is he even comboing off that well? For that long? Even doctor mario has more consistent combos from all starters at more percents. More kill confirms too. That claim is just resoundingly false.
See, I refuse to believe you've been playing any longer than a few hours if you're saying nonsense like this. This is the exact same reaction all the kids had when they said "zzzommggg his dthrow>utilt is gone Maroi is ded" when the game released before they even tried to look into his entire kit. "What is he even comboing off?" ...How about everything? His whole kit is one big combo. Dthrow still works on half the cast, and the ones it doesn't we still have uthrow, his new main combo starter, that combos into literally everything. And it KEEPS comboing until well into the 60s-70s. Any stray utilt or dtilt Mario lands can easily be stringed into a 50+% combo, even longer with platforms. Falling uair comboes into infinity. Uair>uair>fair is a true kill confirm on everyone starting at around 40%. Even a landing bair true connects into turnaround grab, for more infinity comboes. Really the only character I can say has a better combo game than Mario is Pichu/Pika.

As for edgeguarding; No. It's not fantastic. For reasons I've explained above. But I understand how one might be confused considering his specific tools for edgeguarding in FLUDD/Cape. And it's far harder to prove or disprove just how good a character's edgeguarding is.
Any character with Mario's air speed and insanely fast aerials like bair and nair is going to be a strong edgeguarder. If all you're using is cape and fludd to edgeguard, again I must stress you are just completely unfamiliar with how to play him. Even Zero who doesn't play him at all was able to solidly edgeguard mutiple top players in his vids with his ridiculous bair. And I've watched just about every DWizzy match to see more than enough of that as well.

And 'literally every top player's lists have him high tier'? ZeRo has him in C, actually. So hardly 'literally every.' But yes, many have him hover around mid/high tier. And I never claimed they were very far off.
LMAO Zero's list is a meme man, it's widely known that list is a huge joke and nobody pays attention to it. He put Ganon above Mario. Take Zero's away and you have every other person putting him high. Zero also stated that after playing him for a while that he greatly underestimated him before and is more solid than he thought.

Again though, I could be wrong.
You are, on just about everything. Do us a favor and either play Mario more before making statements like this, or don't bother playing him at all if you're not gonna take advice from actual Mario mains and try to defend your terrible opinions.
 
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His Final Smash got buffed in updates. Finally, holy ****
 

Felancius

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His Final Smash got buffed in updates. Finally, holy ****
Doesn't mean too much since he and Doc's Final Smashes are notoriously awful regardless still.

I think the recent patch to nerf his fireballs against shields will have an impact, but how much we don't know exactly yet (It's definitely no Mega Man/Mii Gunner nerf that's for sure). I think Mario would still be high tier otherwise, just the game plan may need to be altered a little bit since fireball into dash grab is riskier now.
 
D

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Doesn't mean too much since he and Doc's Final Smashes are notoriously awful regardless still.

I think the recent patch to nerf his fireballs against shields will have an impact, but how much we don't know exactly yet (It's definitely no Mega Man/Mii Gunner nerf that's for sure). I think Mario would still be high tier otherwise, just the game plan may need to be altered a little bit since fireball into dash grab is riskier now.
I don't think the fireball nerf means too much. Mario's fireballs aren't for shield pressure necessarily. As for the Final Smash, Ive always seen Doc's as better that Mario's since it can actually kill, however, since 3.0 made it harder to whiff both Final Smash's, I think they are now way more useful.
 
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