Make Your Own Tier List

[Afro Smash]

I'm interested to see where you all place Samus and your Tier Lists in general

https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/tier/

That's mine, and each line is in order. I didn't include Miis or Dark Pit in mine but you can in yours.

Obviously we're not all going to agree on placings but try to keep things civil

 

[Xygonn]

Just updated my usage based tier list. This list is ordered by probability that a character entered into (mostly local) tournaments will be the winner.

 

[Metallinatus]

DId Luigi fall this bad after the "Press Down Throw > Down B until you win" removal? LOL
Just a few things.... why is Kirby so down on the list? And why is Mewtwo SO down on the list? Do people still really think he is bad? *sigh*
I would put them both at B at least.... they are very good with good players, and maybe Kirby could even be A- since he has a pretty good matchup with Sheik.... something rare these days.
Also, I would take Fox out of A+ and put Yoshi there....
Maybe I will do a complete list too.... but rank them all is so hard, though....

 

[Xeze]

This is my personal opinion.

This is assuming customs off and Miis with default height/weight and any combination of their special moves (just like they allowed at MLG).

 

[Metallinatus]

Yeah, I couldn't come up with a full list, so here are the first 3 tiers:

Yeah, I think Ike is pretty good too in this game.... after his super buff a few patches ago, at least.
And Mewtwo ended up one tier lower in my concept, at C with Samus and others.
But seriously, did Luigi get that bad for not deserving being there?

 

[❤ Nikodemus05]

Can't use an image editing program nor spend time on a text based tier list, but NOBODY is below B tier. Everyone is viable, imo. ^~^

 

[K_osh]

Yeah, I couldn't come up with a full list, so here are the first 3 tiers:
View attachment 79093
Yeah, I think Ike is pretty good too in this game.... after his super buff a few patches ago, at least.
And Mewtwo ended up one tier lower in my concept, at C with Samus and others.
But seriously, did Luigi get that bad for not deserving being there?

I love Kirby to death but he's too high. He should move down to about where mega man, greninja, and toon link are.

 

[JAZZ_]

Im no expert so grain of salt is needed, add liberally

 

[Zylach]

Just updated my usage based tier list. This list is ordered by probability that a character entered into (mostly local) tournaments will be the winner.

You said this was results based on local tourneys mostly? You don't have Pika representation at your locals? Also, Swordfighter? Sounds like a dynamic local scene.

 

[Xygonn]

You said this was results based on local tourneys mostly? You don't have Pika representation at your locals? Also, Swordfighter? Sounds like a dynamic local scene.

Not my locals. This is for all the tournaments that smashboards includes in their rankings. The majority of tournaments are locals, not majors. For example Ito is probably dominating some locals with MK and Ike, which is why they are up there.

 

[Zylach]

Not my locals. This is for all the tournaments that smashboards includes in their rankings. The majority of tournaments are locals, not majors. For example Ito is probably dominating some locals with MK and Ike, which is why they are up there.

Oh. I didn't realize the lack of Pikas overall. No wonder people quote his results as reasons why he's not S tier.

 

[Xygonn]

Oh. I didn't realize the lack of Pikas overall. No wonder people quote his results as reasons why he's not S tier.

There are tons of pikas, at the 11th most popular character with 1071 entries. The usage is heavy, the results are low compared to the usage though with only 41 wins. Metaknight by comparison has 495 entries and 65 wins. So not only does pika have less total results, pika has bad results on huge representation. Metagame speaking, it could be because of the Luigi matchup.

 

[S4MUS]

I don't have enough experience with them all to make a good tier list, I think.

 

[Metallinatus]

I love Kirby to death but he's too high. He should move down to about where mega man, greninja, and toon link are.

Are you sure? I think he has such an untapped potential in this game....

 

[K_osh]

Are you sure? I think he has such an untapped potential in this game....

So do I, personally I think he belongs near the top of mid tier. I also think he's great but not on the level of the characters you put him with. Maybe after getting the right buffs from a patch he'll move near that spot but right now no.

 

[zblaqk]

This is my opinion obvs. What do you guys think?

 

[Xeze]

This is my opinion obvs. What do you guys think?

ZSS is not the best and Mario is not top 5.

 

[Boney]

Just updated my usage based tier list. This list is ordered by probability that a character entered into (mostly local) tournaments will be the winner.

So it's 100% based on results? That's no fun at all I guess.

Xeze pretty much has my tier list with the exception of Yoshi being too low and kirby being too high

 

[Doomsday]

Yeah, I couldn't come up with a full list, so here are the first 3 tiers:
View attachment 79093
Yeah, I think Ike is pretty good too in this game.... after his super buff a few patches ago, at least.
And Mewtwo ended up one tier lower in my concept, at C with Samus and others.
But seriously, did Luigi get that bad for not deserving being there?

Yeah, the Kirby Skype group has pretty much agreed he is mid mid tier at highest. This past patch has nerfed him if anything, since most of his aerials still aren't safe.He isnt a bad character, its just that his frame data isnt good enough and he doesnt have any reliable kill options. And the sheik MU is no longer even because of that damn patch.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

This is mostly based on personal opinion what I've seen, and any potential that might not've been hit yet with the character. Just understand I'm in no way a professional, and that I don't even know much on about a tenth of the characters.

Spoiler

"E" Tier is the Unknown Tier. This is assumed off of MLG rules.

 

[MegaRiff]

How are you guys posting your tier lists? I made mine but I don't know how to put it in this post.

 

[Afro Smash]

screenshot it then upload or link it

 

[DungeonMaster]

Everyone not on my list is "balanced". They have good and bad matchups, weaknesses and strengths.

Sheik is the most poorly designed character in the game. The premise of this character is "no punish windows". From a design perspective this should never happen in a fighting game. Sakurai believes that having low damage and kill power "balances" this character but no, the design concept is utterly flawed. To "fix" this character it needs more lag, more punishable recovery, plain and simple.
ZSS is very nearly Shiek, except he traded more punish windows for ridiculous kill power and easy bake combos. This is not a recipe for balance. This character's kill power and easy bake damage needs to drop.
Rosaluma hits a button, you hit a button and Rosaluma wins. Designed to be completely anti-projectile with extreme priority and disjoints as well as being floaty so cannot be comboed efficiently, this character is a mess of bad design decisions. All the hit boxes need to drop in size, needs a punish window on down B and much longer timer for luma respawn.
Pika is designed around being extremely hard to hit. Extreme mobility, tiny hurtbox, large covering disjoints, fails game design 101. Startup and endlag on up-B, increase his hurtbox size.

These 4 characters suffer from basic, basic game design problems. They take components of the raw game and push them to extremes, they are obviously broken. It's amazing that anyone with sound mind would code this crap into a game, frankly.

 

[Metallinatus]

Everyone not on my list is "balanced". They have good and bad matchups, weaknesses and strengths.

Sheik is the most poorly designed character in the game. The premise of this character is "no punish windows". From a design perspective this should never happen in a fighting game. Sakurai believes that having low damage and kill power "balances" this character but no, the design concept is utterly flawed. To "fix" this character it needs more lag, more punishable recovery, plain and simple.
ZSS is very nearly Shiek, except he traded more punish windows for ridiculous kill power and easy bake combos. This is not a recipe for balance. This character's kill power and easy bake damage needs to drop.
Rosaluma hits a button, you hit a button and Rosaluma wins. Designed to be completely anti-projectile with extreme priority and disjoints as well as being floaty so cannot be comboed efficiently, this character is a mess of bad design decisions. All the hit boxes need to drop in size, needs a punish window on down B and much longer timer for luma respawn.
Pika is designed around being extremely hard to hit. Extreme mobility, tiny hurtbox, large covering disjoints, fails game design 101. Startup and endlag on up-B, increase his hurtbox size.

These 4 characters suffer from basic, basic game design problems. They take components of the raw game and push them to extremes, they are obviously broken. It's amazing that anyone with sound mind would code this crap into a game, frankly.

How is Mario even nearly broken? How? He is one of the most all-rounded and balanced characters in the game....
If anything, he should be an inspiration for the other characters.
And I really hate when someone say a character in Smash 4 is "broken"....
It takes much more than that for a character to be "broken"....
If we were talking about Brawl's MK level of stuff, then we would be talking about real broken.
But no character in Sm4sh is near that.

 

[Doomsday]

Why would you want the good characters to be nerfesd? Are you not good enough to beat them? If anything lower tier characters should be getting buffs so they can compete with better characters.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'm going to give a distasteful argument I really don't like to give but I have to since it's a matter of pure opinion: I'm likely considerably older than you guys, and I know better. I've played fighting games literally, not figuratively, since the SF and heavy nova days.
Some things do not work, they fail basic fighting game design criteria time and again. Some things are broken, and need to described as such. There's no need to be politically correct.

Those 4 characters that I have listed have distinct design advantages that need to be toned down. No amount of "raising the lower tiers" is going to change those facts I have listed.
Sheik's punish windows are too small. They are just simply too small. The character can throw out hitboxes and defend with impunity. It's a totally flawed concept.
ZSS can do "almost" the same as Sheik she gets hit a bit more because she has a few moves that allow punish, but she hits like a mach truck.
Rosaluma's hitboxes have massive disjoints (read: invisible) and she is all but immune to projectiles. You are forced to engage the massive disjointed hitboxes and it's a once sided battle. The disadvantages do not even come close to outweighing the advantages. This basic design concept is profoundly stupid and its execution is precisely why there is so much hatred for the character.
Pika's movement is all but un-reactable, both in space and time, frame 15 omnidirectional, AND it hurts you AND you can't punish him for it, even if he screws up, he's designed so that you'll miss quite often. It's broken, from the outset.

People who try to win tournaments - they are not picking these characters randomly you know? It's not due to highly advanced techniques, very specific character control, those are icing on the cake. They are picking these characters because at a base level they are flawed game design, extreme elements giving advantage.

Mario might as well have a sword in hand, his disjoints and priority are too much. His hurtbox is too small for the size of his hitboxes. It needs significant tweaking. The priority is too high.

 

[Metallinatus]

Reading all of that I can't help but think that any character in any fighting game whose can camp is also broken with a flawed game design.... and that would put Villager, Fox, Falco, Peach, Mario, Luigi, Ness, Lucas, and of course, Samus, and many others, on that list.
The sheer fact that they have a hitbox that can travel and hit from very afar without being susceptible to punishes makes them broken in that aspect you're talking about.... specially those characters who can camp really hard and make really damn hard to approach them.
But do you want to just call all of them broken? I don't want to. But their design are just as flawed as those you mentioned.
And those flawed design exist in basically every fighting game ever.... which is not exactly a good thing I must say.

 

[Xyro77]

Here is what i think the tier is right now.

No customs, 3 stocks and the character is not ordered within his/her tier.

S tier= 100% sure
A tier= 100% sure
B tier= 90% sure
C tier= 50% sure
D tier= 30% sure (i have no F-ing idea)
E tier= 80% sure
D tier= 100% sure

I created this list based off of my personal exp, traveling, TOing and overall love for smash stats/results.

 

[Snipnigth]

Peach is much better than shulk and ike IMO.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Metallinatus
Projectiles can win certain fighting games. It has happened many many times in the past. Ukyo from samurai showdown 2, prime example.
I loved samsh2 and played it quite competitively back in the day, a genjuro main in fact. Ukyo's fireball was stupidly designed.
I really enjoyed the game, despite the fact that it was a balance disaster. It was enormously fun.

Things are different today, it's 2015 and we know a lot more about game design and game balance.
Shiek has un-reactable invisible needles that travel a full stage and confirm into kill moves like bouncing fish, useful in both camping and approach, from the air and the ground.
Samus has a 20 frame startup 5 damage missile that isn't safe on block or hit, does not home, all but pointless in the air, can be cut/punched away AND hit her simultaneously, with a full second of cooldown and all but no follow ups.
From a game design perspective, taking just these 2 projectile moves in abstraction, you would have to be an idiot to design these 2 moves in the same game. It's almost childishly bad design.
Do I love smash 4? Absolutely, it's a great game, even a fantastic game. It's enormously fun, and I really love playing Samus in smash 4.
In adjusting and balancing this game, you should not kid yourself, there's a huge disparity and it's not merely going to come from balancing up the low tiers, the high tiers are going to have to be nerfed because their design is fundamentally flawed.
It won't happen without nerfs.

 

[Xygonn]

I'm going to give a distasteful argument I really don't like to give but I have to since it's a matter of pure opinion: I'm likely considerably older than you guys, and I know better. I've played fighting games literally, not figuratively, since the SF and heavy nova days.
Some things do not work, they fail basic fighting game design criteria time and again. Some things are broken, and need to described as such. There's no need to be politically correct.

Those 4 characters that I have listed have distinct design advantages that need to be toned down. No amount of "raising the lower tiers" is going to change those facts I have listed.
Sheik's punish windows are too small. They are just simply too small. The character can throw out hitboxes and defend with impunity. It's a totally flawed concept.
ZSS can do "almost" the same as Sheik she gets hit a bit more because she has a few moves that allow punish, but she hits like a mach truck.
Rosaluma's hitboxes have massive disjoints (read: invisible) and she is all but immune to projectiles. You are forced to engage the massive disjointed hitboxes and it's a once sided battle. The disadvantages do not even come close to outweighing the advantages. This basic design concept is profoundly stupid and its execution is precisely why there is so much hatred for the character.
Pika's movement is all but un-reactable, both in space and time, frame 15 omnidirectional, AND it hurts you AND you can't punish him for it, even if he screws up, he's designed so that you'll miss quite often. It's broken, from the outset.

People who try to win tournaments - they are not picking these characters randomly you know? It's not due to highly advanced techniques, very specific character control, those are icing on the cake. They are picking these characters because at a base level they are flawed game design, extreme elements giving advantage.

Mario might as well have a sword in hand, his disjoints and priority are too much. His hurtbox is too small for the size of his hitboxes. It needs significant tweaking. The priority is too high.

You might be older than me, but I've been playing since SF days too. All sorts of fighting games. I actually think Pika is not OP as is evidenced by horrible results relative to popularity. I think being a Samus main gives a bad impression of Pika.

Sheik is pretty dumb. ZSS is pretty dump with boost kick and flip kick. Those moves are dumb. Rosalina, I'm not convinced is broken because she is light and has a vulnerable recovery. Her uair is pretty dumb though.

 

[Xyro77]

Peach is much better than shulk and ike IMO.

I watched San, Ryo and Ryuga reach top 18 at Big House 5 (512 entrants with the best of the best at this event).
I watched Ryo place top 8 at MLG 2015. He beat
Ive played Ryo in about 10 matches.

Ike has uair and fair from d-throw even at decently high percents. Bair can be used to if DI is bad. All three moves kill and do obscene damage.

Nair is pretty damn safe on shield if spaced and nair covers behind Ike in case the enemy rolls behind him.

Jab 1 connects to all three jabs (obscene and easy damage) unless you are someone like yoshi or luigi and perfect DI jab 1 into instant nair.

UP+B is un-gimpable to 90% of the cast.

Usmash punishes rolls, air dodges and ground dodges. oh and it kill mega early.

Neutral B on ledge might be the best edge guard in the game. The hit box goes ON the legde, IN the ledge, THROUGH the ledge (above/below and on both sides).

Im not seeing results from shulks or peach that match these 3 Ikes. I really think Ike is better than peach and shulk.

 

[Jenna Zant]

Customs off, 3 stock 8 minute freed Miis.

S tier: The best of the best.
A tier: The best
B tier:/ The viable
C tier: The viable-as-a-secondary
D tier: The counterpick onlys
E tier: The friendlies-onlys
F tier: The trash

 

[Vyrnx]

Im no expert so grain of salt is needed, add liberally

Why do you think Falco is so high? This isn't supposed to sound like I'm questioning your placement, I'm really just wondering.

 

[JAZZ_]

Why do you think Falco is so high? This isn't supposed to sound like I'm questioning your placement, I'm really just wondering.

Izaw highlighted some strengths that impressed me, I guess my list is bias based on personal experience, I don't think he's better than fox but he's not in a lower tier in my list. It's just how I feel, like I said, be liberal with your understanding that I am no expert at all

 

[TheRedLemming]

This is my current tier list based on the way certain characters feel for me as I play them, and some of their results. I'm not quite sure who all falls in the E tier and that's my "This is completely unordered and semi-unsure of characters"
Again, the primary basis is how a character feels when I'm playing, which means I'm probably pretty wrong on a lot of these.

 

[IsmaR]

Sorry m8's, this ain't the section for Tier List discussion. Feel free to to take whatever opinions you have to either the Competitve Discussion section, or the main/general Samus thread.