M2K in "Project M stuff"

[Mr.Random]

M2K discusses aspects of PM. Remember to approach this professionally, and remember that this is his opinion. He has loads of experience so try to look at this from his perspective before posting your opinion. I'll throw my two cents in later.
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2bhmih/project_m_stuff/

 

[InfinityCollision]

While I think he's got some valid points, his delivery is terrible and he comes across as way too worked up (nothing new there). I'd also argue that nerfing his characters is coincidental; Fox needed it regardless and Mewtwo will be nerfed as a result of things that he slept on. Speaking of which, he's sleeping on Sheik.

I'm also okay with adjustments changing the meta right now because I believe it has the potential to give us a better game in the long run. Complaining about change in general is short-sighted. Complaining about poorly thought-out changes is a different story, and I think the quality of the next update will be critical to PM's health and success in the years to come.

 

[Phan7om]

Agreed with points 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7.

 

[FreeGamer]

I agree with points 4 and 7. Also, lol @ him implying the slight Fox nerfs were his fault.

 

[trash?]

I would just like to show this comment tree from /r/SSBPM:

How many times have you seen this conversation?

Squirtle's side B is OP

All you have to do is crouch

AND THEN WHAT!?

FIGURE IT THE **** OUT. You got easy solution number 1, now you know how to curb the knockback, but it's up to YOU to analyze the situation and make a decision on how to land a succesful punish. PM is not a formula, and no character has a step by step guide to beating them, they have weaknesses and strengths, and there shouldn't be any automagic way to counter every one of their tools.

It's about COUNTER-PLAY, not clear counters. The beauty of PM and melee is that you never stop playing, even when you're on the defense. you can turn the tide at any point, but it's up to YOU. If there was a near guaranteed way to stuff every option, WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF THE OPTIONS!?!?!?!?

also, you lose all respect from me if you intentionally sandbag out of bitterness. that is the most immature stuff, you're being a selfish prick at the expense of the rest of the community? nah, I don't want you near this game in that case

 

[Blank Mauser]

While I'm not 100% familiar with all the changes in PM's lifespan I think some nerfs are really over-exaggerated. I can't think of any character that got nerfed so hard that their gameplan was severely gimped. In fact I'd say plenty of characters have remained similar enough to adapt to easily.

Then you have excellent cases like Sonic. Wizzrobe is still quite spindash heavy, but did people watching not enjoy that he took the character further this time? Now that Sonic has to commit more to his down-B instead of being able to wavedash out of it, people actually had to learn to play the character.

Not only that but people were clearly still unfamiliar with the match-up. Getting hit by turn-around > spin-jump > bair constantly. M2K got hit by so many of those I couldn't help but shake my head. I'm not denying that Sonic is good, and that Wizzrobe is a great player. I enjoy watching him improve. But he focused so much on the spindash he didn't have to abuse Sonic's dash dancing and mobility at all. He merely had to walk and imply the threat of spindash. This was why I liked watching CT Zero play him even more. He completely showed how to shut down that gameplan and adapted beautifully with Fox.

Limitations force innovation. I think Smash community in general has this problem of linking certain characters to certain players. So of course people who do well with said characters might complain about changes in them. My problem is I would much rather have match-up specific stuff addressed. Example its really frustrating to be in a bad matchup and ALSO not be able to punish characters for things that other characters (Like Fox) can punish easily.

Changes tend to focus on speed and comboability, but two things also fundamental to Melee are shield pressure and punishing. Some people have so much unsafe stuff on shield that they have to commit to everything they do really hard. (Or Shieldgrab themselves) Overall I feel PM still favors defense slightly more.

 

[Osennecho]

1.) I agree with some of what he said. Assuming one of his points is that one can not adjust (at least to the extent one can adjust in melee) to all the gimmicks characters present at high level play (to many viable characters/match-ups/gimmicks) because the game updates I agree with that as well.

2.) LOL @ saying Fox's nerfs were his doing. Fox got fox nerfed. He's still incredibly dumb and good in the game, but by M2K's own logic, how he performs should always be less than where his actual ability dictates because everyone knows that match-up but not the other 40.

3.) Also, he keeps whining a character is broken every-time he struggles in a match-up rather than learning it (except M2 b/c he got bopped by his own character). Example: Ivy (which he conveniently didn't include in his list of top characters b/c he has learned since then Ivy isn't OP). However, he did include Ness. How? Why?.... I mean sure Ness is top at low level play, but he's def not top 5 or even 10 imo at upper play. 100% viable, but not top. A similar case with Sonic... Sonic is great and top tier, but not #1 in this game.

 

[trash?]

he has ness as top tier because he played awestin once, and for reasons beyond me just refused to acknowledge that his dair is just a meteor? so now he thinks ness has free edgeguarding

remember, he's the kind of guy who still has jigglypuff as #3 behind spacies in melee to this day, because that's the matchup he struggles with

 

[Celestis]

PM is at the point of small nerf's/bff though, isn't it? This isn't 2.1 anymore. And what's the 3rd fox nerf? I know there was the Shine and the laser. What was the other?

 

[MonkUnit]

He is referring to the increase in certain stage ceiling heights. Before 3.2, stage ceilings were on average much lower than the average ceiling height in Melee. We increased the average ceiling height in PM to match closer to Melee's average ceiling height.

 

[Mr.Random]

He is referring to the increase in certain stage ceiling heights. Before 3.2, stage ceilings were on average much lower than the average ceiling height in Melee. We increased the average ceiling height in PM to match closer to Melee's average ceiling height.

Of course this wasn't specifically to nerf Fox but to keep characters in general from dying earlier than they did on an average Melee stage correct?

 

[MonkUnit]

Yes, that is correct.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Mew2King thinks PM is easy

easy=bad

M2K THINKS PM IS AN AWFUL GAME!!!!!!

 

[Frost | Odds]

What really gets me is that he appears to be accusing the PMBR of acting too quickly out of some irrational fear of an actual meta developing.

It's been like 7 months since the last balance patch, dude. From the looks of things, it'll probably be at least 1 or 2 more until the next. How many years are we supposed to wait until obvious problem characters are brought in line?

 

[SunJester]

I'm confused to Reddit's opinion on P:M.

They talk about how unbalanced this game is. How characters are gimmicky and easily exploitable. How recoveries are too good and need to be changed. Basically they're calling for nerfs and changes.

Then they get mad that the game is changed and the metagame isn't allowed to develop.



I'm not saying they don't have points, or dismissing the entire arguments. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Some clarity on this issue would be great.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I'm confused to Reddit's opinion on P:M.

They talk about how unbalanced this game is. How characters are gimmicky and easily exploitable. How recoveries are too good and need to be changed. Basically they're calling for nerfs and changes.

Then they get mad that the game is changed and the metagame isn't allowed to develop.



I'm not saying they don't have points, or dismissing the entire arguments. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Some clarity on this issue would be great.

Here's your clarity... Two words.

Hypocritical fandom.


Just be patient while the vocal minority of idiots peters out.

 

[Binary Clone]

I'm confused to Reddit's opinion on P:M.

They talk about how unbalanced this game is. How characters are gimmicky and easily exploitable. How recoveries are too good and need to be changed. Basically they're calling for nerfs and changes.

Then they get mad that the game is changed and the metagame isn't allowed to develop.



I'm not saying they don't have points, or dismissing the entire arguments. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Some clarity on this issue would be great.

Wow, it's almost as if the community is made up of thousands of individual people who voice differing opinions.

Anyway, M2K makes some good points, and some that are kind of iffy. I think most of us will agree that tiny nerfs are the way to go for right now, but I think before doing that some things should be just straight-up fixed. I haven't looked at frame data or anything, but Ivy's Vine Whip hitbox is placed oddly, I think, and it's pretty widely known that Olimar's Up B doesn't really work properly right now (IIRC).

Personally I think the balance is really good right now. There are characters I have issues dealing with that I wish weren't as strong, but they don't need to be nerfed hard. I'd honestly be fine without the nerfs, but I trust the guys behind PM to keep doing a good job in their work.

 

[SunJester]

Wow, it's almost as if the community is made up of thousands of individual people who voice differing opinions.

I'm aware of that. Though every thread about P:M is one or the other. Currently the PMBR has people hating their game for two very, very different reasons.

Which of those groups do you choose to please?

 

[CORY]

damned if you do, damned if you don't?

do whatever the hell you want, then.

 

[SunJester]

damned if you do, damned if you don't?

do whatever the hell you want, then.

This has been my thoughts on this for a while. As much as its tempting to try and please everyone, its impossible. Even if you risk isolation you need to do exactly what you think is right, and nothing less.

 

[Celestis]

How people can say this game is unbalanced when so many different characters come out on top is beyond me. Recoveris to good? Yeah, maybe. Diddy..

 

[victinivcreate1]

M2K makes a lot of good points and some questionable ones.

TBH the only character that needs nerfs is Mewtwo.

 

[Renji64]

I'm still confused by what he means by gimmicks. I think the PMBR are doing a good job it has been a long time since the last update and things are going well it is clear by now P:M it is own thing.

 

[Fortress]

I agree with pretty much everything. Make very, very, very, very tiny changes. Most everybody in the cast are fine as-is, and small tune-ups from here on out should be fine. But, why is this a thread.

I'm still confused by what he means by gimmicks. I think the PMBR are doing a good job it has been a long time since the last update and things are going well it is clear by now P:M it is own thing.

"Gimmicks" as in things that your character could not do in Melee, but can perform with ease in PM, that are more or less carrying you independent of your skill. When people in PM complain that "X move on Y character is way too good" when in reality it's not really, and is just blown way out of proportion.

Adapt > buff/nerf

 

[Celestis]

I think Mewtwo is fine. It's not like he has been showing one sided results at tournaments or anything.

 

[Fortress]

I think Mewtwo is fine. It's not like he has been showing one sided results at tournaments or anything.

Yeah, exactly. After APEX it was 'nerf Pit, nerf Pit', after all.

Based on the characters I play, the only objective changes I could suggest are very minor ones:


+Shorten Link's tether by a very small amount
-maybe increase the amount of time a character takes to 'reel in' on tethering?

+Shorten 'rang's range, decrease its travel speed

And I'm sure I can probably think of other small tweaks, but, those are ones that I can think of. Not hard buffs/nerfs, but just small, small, small tweaks.

 

[cmvnb3]

M2K's ego is so humongous now that he refers to all players that beat him in Mewtwo ditto matches and otherwise in PM as "by gimmick" winners. What a shameless and disgraceful way to excuse oneself from admitting to being fairly bested. At the very least, there's no "gimmick" to beating you in a ditto match, M2K. So in conclusion: GET OVER YOURSELF, M2K.

 

[Bleck]

Repost from another thread;

M2K will say anything to diminish the accomplishments of players other than himself. His opinion is worthless.

 

[Phaiyte]

M2K is becoming an actual disgrace. I don't care how butthurt he is. He is the dictionary definition of a sore /loser/. He needs to accept his losses, stop spreading so much misinformation. Claiming a bunch of nerfs were only because of him? What the actual **** ever, kid. Get over yourself.

Btw, M2 teleport is not a free hit at all, no matter how hard M2K ******* about it. ****ing press A, god damn. You have like, a whole 7ish frames before Nair actually comes out. Don't shield. That's what good Mewtwo's want you to do. It is an absolutely free punish if you shield. But that's what you get for doing exactly what you shouldn't be doing anyways.

 

[Paradoxium]

You know, M2K is one of the greatest brawl and melee players of all time, and is also one of the top pm players as of now. So instead of outright dismissing him maybe we should at least take a few of his points into consideration? Maybe there is a bit of truth to a few of the things he has to say?

 

[Phaiyte]

You know, M2K is one of the greatest brawl and melee players of all time, and is also one of the top pm players as of now. So instead of outright dismissing him maybe we should at least take a few of his points into consideration? Maybe there is a bit of truth to a few of the things he has to say?

No one cares about how good anyone or he thinks he is. All he does is spread misinformation and get butthurt about new matchups because he refuses to learn them. He literally relies on nothing but Melee while playing PM, and he should know better than that. I'm not going to feel sorry for someone that's literally just being a crybaby about everything.

 

[Bleck]

You know, M2K is one of the greatest brawl and melee players of all time, and is also one of the top pm players as of now. So instead of outright dismissing him maybe we should at least take a few of his points into consideration? Maybe there is a bit of truth to a few of the things he has to say?

Being good at a video game doesn't give M2K free reign to be an asshole. It's not anyone's responsibility to wade through the toxic wasteland that are his opinions just to confirm the veracity of his statements.

 

[Metallaeus]

You know, M2K is one of the greatest brawl and melee players of all time, and is also one of the top pm players as of now. So instead of outright dismissing him maybe we should at least take a few of his points into consideration? Maybe there is a bit of truth to a few of the things he has to say?

M2K's delivery may or may not be horseshet, but that doesn't mean he doesn't make valid points. He's a top player for a reason, guys. :/

 

[Frost | Odds]

M2K's delivery may or may not be horseshet, but that doesn't mean he doesn't make valid points. He's a top player for a reason, guys. :/

His points being wrong is what makes them wrong (though not everything in that post was outright stupid or false) - M2K being an egomaniacal biased lunatic is just a bonus.

 

[Bleck]

M2K's delivery may or may not be horseshet, but that doesn't mean he doesn't make valid points.

Yes, it does - understand that the validity of an idea is inexorably linked with whether or not people accept it. There's no such thing as objective truth - it doesn't matter if you believe you're right if nobody else does.

And, in M2K's case, nobody's going to believe he's right when it's becoming increasingly clear that everything he says is just high-level johns.

 

[cmvnb3]

Being a top player doesn't mean you can't have bias. I agree with some things said and disagree with others. This is because I don't have bias and end up completely mixed on my opinions on what was said. As for nerfs, these need not apply until it ends up being Fox 20XX with Mewtwo in PM tourneys and even if it does happen it could be due to bias that favors a perceived "top tier" character when in truth there's other untapped characters that could have beaten Mewtwo. The nerfs need to slow down and they have, so M2K needs to chill out about them. But screw him for belittling other players that are good at PM. If he wants to prove what he thinks then he should just go Sonic at the next tourney and put his money where his mouth is and then we'll all have to listen. Too bad he's too afraid of starting the nerfpocalypse on whichever character he plays too well as to do this. Because everything the PM team does revolves around M2K, the living God of Smash, LMAO.

 

[Metallaeus]

I hope people realize the real message behind what he was trying to say is that changing the game every so often shouldn't be how you solve the problems of game each and every time. You have to learn how to adapt and fight back to the things frustrate you.

 

[Bleck]

There is no objective amount of changes that should (or should not) be made to a game if they're capable of being made. One thousand and one people have said that the PMBR needs to keep their hands off and let the metagame "evolve", and it's just as asinine when M2K says it as it was with everyone else.

 

[Metallaeus]

There is no objective amount of changes that should (or should not) be made to a game if they're capable of being made. One thousand and one people have said that the PMBR needs to keep their hands off and let the metagame "evolve", and it's just as asinine when M2K says it as it was with everyone else.

It's just a matter of opinion. I don't see why you feel the need to shoot the idea down.

 

[Fortress]

You know, M2K is one of the greatest brawl and melee players of all time, and is also one of the top pm players as of now. So instead of outright dismissing him maybe we should at least take a few of his points into consideration? Maybe there is a bit of truth to a few of the things he has to say?

This. You people all miss one key element to the whole 'M2K' debacle: the dude wins games. More than you, and more than you likely ever will. His opinion carries more than a little weight. One of the main things I personally dislike about PM is how often characters get drastically changed based on some tournament results. Clearly some character is going to outperform another, or have a harder time performing well. Cry 'nerf, nerf, nerf, buff, buff, buff' all you people want, but in the end, that band-aid solution is only going to keep you back from playing well.

I hope people realize the real message behind what he was trying to say is that changing the game every so often shouldn't be how you solve the problems of game each and every time. You have to learn how to adapt and fight back to the things frustrate you.

This, this, this. Play the game, ****ing learn, ****ing adapt, and quit crying foul when the character that you had no matchup knowledge against flattened you a hundred games in a row. And, yes, maybe you have a lot less skill than you thought, especially if the first thing you think would fix the game are huge changes to the roster.

Let it develop, and learn; better yourself as a player.