Luigi tips against D3

[hippiedude92]

Hey I'm new to the Luigi board's so don't mind my noobiness. Okay so I've been playing D3s for quite a while now and I've been getting my *** kicked everywhere. I'm playing for money tomrrow with my friends and I'm pretty sure one of them is going to be beast on D3.
First off, what do against D3's bair? It's so beast! I always get gimped everytime i try to recover. It's just about the same thing as it's Fair. As for D3 dash attack, it's so humilating everytime i get ko'd from it. Also D3's sucking move, I always get sucked when my D3 oppenent is a stock ahead of me. Everytime I try to gimp D3, it always backfires. When D3 lands I always get hit the stars next to it. It's shield grabs are so painful too! With D3's waddle dees, I get pressured because it cancels out my fireball. So I'm pretty much forced to go on aggressive side and using a tornado.


Soo please! any tips on approachs, whether I should camp and let D3 come to me or not, any counterpick stages, Advantages/Disadvantages. Thanks alot.

 

[Vist]

You should'nt be so aggressive against a good D3. Against his bair- DI away when you're at low percents so he doesn't combo you and DI up/in when it might kill you at high percents. You should be able to see most of his moves coming in the air so u can just airdodge or when he's the one in the air you could probably just sheildgrab or attack out of sheild. Make sure you watch any attempts for grabs that he or any good D3 will go for (like when they run right at you, it's usually pretty obvious) b/c of the chain grab he can pull off. If you're getting sucked in with his b move then you're probably rushing towards him too much...and waddle dees can just be airdodged or sheilded etc so don't let that force you to approach.

 

[hippiedude92]

So I should stay on defensive side? or offensive side against D3? So if hes pressuring me with Waddle Dees, i should just stay until he comes to me?

 

[Watkins]

*obligatory "Don't get grabbed"*

 

[hippiedude92]

*obligatory "Don't get grabbed"*

That's better said then done T.T I get shield grabbed at least like 8 times+ of the match since shieldgrabs are good against Luigi's aerials.

 

[Eten]

His waddle-dees can outspam your fireball and has to do it too because D3 has like no approach game. Heh. Just deal with it, they aren't that horrible of a projectile and he's not that good of a camper. IE. You can approach with shorthops and tornado stuff and the waddle dees won't give you much trouble and all you have to do is space right with bairs or whatever to avoid the shield grab.

You also can't gimp D3. That's one of his strongest abilities- he's a serious heavy weight with a non-gimpable recovery. But that's cool- you can KO him early with an up-B on his huge easy-to-hit hurtbox. For his up-B landing just get near where he'll land and time your spotdodge, you'll avoid the stars and everything quite fine and you can punish with an up-B then.

I've not played around with D3's inhale all that much to see what all the options are but you should just slow down and start tossing fireballs at him for it. As for him KOing you with it- shouldn't happen unless he catches as he's already falling off the stage, press those buttons to get out of it and there is a lot of room for DI as you leave, even if he spits you, so be aware of that and DI the right way and keep your cool and you should be able to recover.

Lastly if you find yourself being gimped while you're recovering against any player I always give the same advice- aim to sweetspot the ledge with a charged green missile. If they try to come all the way out to you just release and hit them.

 

[hippiedude92]

His waddle-dees can outspam your fireball and has to do it too because D3 has like no approach game. Heh. Just deal with it, they aren't that horrible of a projectile and he's not that good of a camper. IE. You can approach with shorthops and tornado stuff and the waddle dees won't give you much trouble and all you have to do is space right with bairs or whatever to avoid the shield grab.

You also can't gimp D3. That's one of his strongest abilities- he's a serious heavy weight with a non-gimpable recovery. But that's cool- you can KO him early with an up-B on his huge easy-to-hit hurtbox. For his up-B landing just get near where he'll land and time your spotdodge, you'll avoid the stars and everything quite fine and you can punish with an up-B then.

I've not played around with D3's inhale all that much to see what all the options are but you should just slow down and start tossing fireballs at him for it. As for him KOing you with it- shouldn't happen unless he catches as he's already falling off the stage, press those buttons to get out of it and there is a lot of room for DI as you leave, even if he spits you, so be aware of that and DI the right way and keep your cool and you should be able to recover.

Lastly if you find yourself being gimped while you're recovering against any player I always give the same advice- aim to sweetspot the ledge with a charged green missile. If they try to come all the way out to you just release and hit them.

I think I understand what you mean, I've never broke out from D3's inhale before so I wasn't sure if you can break out of it or not. Probably the most luckiest time for me gimping a D3 is when he uses all his jumps, he uses upb, and I gimp him again far enough so that he won't recover. But that's pretty occasional sometime. He's waddle dee's are like somewhat annoying espically if the spikey one get's me. It does maybe around a good decent 20%~35%? Anyways, if counterpicking stages really do matter against this huge penguin, which stage's should Luigi perform best at?

 

[A2ZOMG]

You actually shouldn't play Luigi against D3 at all, because he's an infinite candidate.

And either way, I can't see any advantages Luigi has in this matchup. Luigi is so slow in the air, almost as slow as DDD himself, but DDD has a lot more priority, air time, and kill strength. Luigi can't do anything at a distance against DDD at all because of how easy it is for DDD to toss his projectiles at it.

And then yeah, Luigi can't ledgeguard DDD AT ALL.

Also DDD is the most vertically resilient character in the game if I recall. He is much harder to KO vertically I mean. This is a problem for Luigi who focuses mainly on killing that direction, if he can't ledgeguard his opponent. Worse, Luigi dies vertically pretty easily himself, and DDD has the 2nd best U-tilt in the game for that purpose.

Bleh, this really looks like Luigi's worst matchup.

Since I've been one of those guys that likes to compare Mario and Luigi, I'll point out at least Mario can actually ledgeguard DDD, has Fireballs that actually can be used in this matchup, and has a better time juggling him due to being faster. But he still loses thanks to the infinite CG and DDD being amazing outside of that anyway.

 

[Eten]

The gordo does 20% damage I'm pretty sure. It hurts, 1/10 chance he'll throw one. I think that's the real factor in not just letting him spam waddle dees imho, because if the rest are not hurting you eventually he'll pull one of those out and it hurts.

As for stages... Well, D3 is a character that almost completely revolves around stage+character selection. Obviously, nothing with walls, and pass through bottom platforms makes it exeptionally easy for him to recover, even more than before. Thing is, with Luigi, his normal downthrow chaingrab totally fails, the way luigi slides out of the dthrow even prevents ftilt follow ups and definately dthrow followups even if it isn't a perfect chain which is a huge advantage and doesn't give him the stage control he normally has. But at the same time, he's got that stand-in place chain throw on luigi, but I've actually only seen him pull it off at most 3 times in a row on luigi even with the hits in between, and sometimes less than that. So it's damage building option that's just a bit stronger than his 16% backthrow- I simply haven't yet played a D3 that has actually done a full infinite on luigi when I'm DIing. For that reason, what I suggest is simply to stay away from some of the stages D3's love to pick, like Corneria, Jungle Japes...

You actually shouldn't play Luigi against D3 at all, because he's an infinite candidate.

And either way, I can't see any advantages Luigi has in this matchup. Luigi is so slow in the air, almost as slow as DDD himself, but DDD has a lot more priority, air time, and kill strength. Luigi can't do anything at a distance against DDD at all because of how easy it is for DDD to toss his projectiles at it.

And then yeah, Luigi can't ledgeguard DDD AT ALL.

Also DDD is the most vertically resilient character in the game if I recall. He is much harder to KO vertically I mean. This is a problem for Luigi who focuses mainly on killing that direction, if he can't ledgeguard his opponent. Worse, Luigi dies vertically pretty easily himself, and DDD has the 2nd best U-tilt in the game for that purpose.

Bleh, this really looks like Luigi's worst matchup.

Since I've been one of those guys that likes to compare Mario and Luigi, I'll point out at least Mario can actually ledgeguard DDD, has Fireballs that actually can be used in this matchup, and has a better time juggling him due to being faster. But he still loses thanks to the infinite CG and DDD being amazing outside of that anyway.

IF you don't have to deal with a true chaingrab infinite, luigi has a *lot* of advantages in this match-up. Like I said above, all other chaingrabs and throw follow-ups don't work on luigi. Also because of his large size and very fast fall rate D3 can easily get hit by a damage string leading up to 75%(and mario does not have a better time doing this, luigi's flexible dair and fair, superior nair and greater variety of short hop double aerials significantly make damage strings easier for luigi here). Being a heavier character does not give Luigi any more trouble KOing him than anybody else- the nature of high power vertical KOs means that the difference in % between a lightweight and heavyweight on Luigi's up-B is 45% to 60%- a 15% damage window isn't going to break luigi on this matchup. Same thing with up-angled Fsmash, it still kills at ~95% just like vs. snake. Between those two moves D3 actually does *not* come out ahead than Luigi in kill strength(equivalents being D3's fsmash and uptilt) and saying that luigi is more vulnerable to vertical KOs than any other middle-weight is just plain false. D3 also does not have more priority, and you didn't mention but Luigi attacks much, much faster than D3. In addition, the lack of traditional edgeguarding isn't the same as having an unpunishable recovery because while D3 is not traditionally edgeguarded you can force and punish the up-B landing lag by threatening to ledgehog ledge-grab attempts.

As long as the D3 isn't pulling off chaingrabs larger than 3 this is very much a match-up that's NOT in his favor and this fact should be quite clear to someone after some experience playing as luigi vs. D3. D3 is no where near Luigi's hardest match-up compared to the likes of Meta-knight, and if your theorycrafting "if weight hurts vertical KOs and D3 can't be traditionally ledgeguarded mario > luigi" statements is all you have to offer instead of an actual understanding of this match-up I'm going to have to kindly ask you to gtfo with your mario supporting agenda.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No, DDD has a ton more priority than Luigi. I think it's pretty obvious. His grab range and F-tilt >>> Luigi's jab -> Up-B, so I highly doubt Luigi will ever land that. Even if DDD isn't bothering to do an infinite, a grab in many cases could easily be a free like 30% depending on stage on Luigi and other characters minus the few characters that don't get CGed like G&W. Honestly I feel the Jab -> Up-B is highly overestimated. It's extremely situational, and if whiffed, it's of course not safe.

Mario moves faster and also has several double aerials like Luigi.

Luigi's N-air supposedly can kill, if he saves it from juggling combos. DDD's aerials aren't often used for killing, but his F-air and B-air both can kill.

Luigi is significantly more vulnerable to vertical KOs than other middle weights. He has very low falling speed, which is an important factor in determining that. DDD's U-tilt is one of the most reliable vertical killers due to its hitbox (which I don't understand how Luigi will get past), speed, and knockback. Also, 15% difference to get a kill is a big deal. You have to land at least two attacks to inflict 15% on your enemy, and this can be difficult in Brawl which is very defensively oriented. And if you accidentally use an attack just a bit too early and it doesn't kill, then that attack is probably not going to kill very soon again.

Also, I can't see how you would reliably get past Waddle Dees in any case. Luigi is slow and can't really camp back here, which sucks for him. And because he's so slow moving in the air I fail to see how he's reliably punishing DDD's Up-B ending lag.

Mario also gets to ledgeguard DDD with the Cape and FLUDD, which actually both can shut down DDD's recovery effectively, something Luigi can't do at all.

Luigi > Mario, but I just think there's several matchups he's worse at, and this seems like one of those. Basically it boils down to how DDD is hard to approach, hard to effectively ledgeguard, and can camp, and I honestly don't see Luigi dealing with those factors well at all.

 

[hippiedude92]

I understand what you mean Eten. Most D3's dont land the infinite on me unless it's off the wall. The most time's D3's ever grabbed me was definitly 3. A D3 will usually normal dthrow, then either go for another grab again or a F-tilt. But really a normal D-throw to a F-tilt is avoided is due to Luigi's slipperiness and I usually tech so the F-tilt misses.

@A2ZOMG, I've played as Mario against D3 since he's also my main. But I feel as if Luigi is more capable hands in handling D3 just because of his firepunch and his amazing recovery. I think D3 has more priority with his Bair, but that's probably because I've been killed by it countless times.

 

[Eten]

Check your facts on priority- it isn't obvious that D3 has more priority on the ground, not at all. Aerial priority is another matter- it's all about how soon who's hitbox overlaps an opponents hurtbox, take it for what you will but saying Luigi is on the losing end is closer to being wrong than being right. Priority on the ground is determined in other ways but Luigi isn't short on that as many attacks clank with D3's.

You don't have to up-B after a jab, you can just jab on ending lag and D3 definitely has plenty of that in his moveset, especially after landing his up-B on the stage. You only need to use a jab setup on anybody for safety reasons if you aren't looking to up-B them on ending lag.

15% damage is one strong hit Nair, or downsmash or... 15% is trivial, especially with the increased combo-ability D3 inherently has.

Lastly, fall speed has almost NOTHING to do with how easily you are killed in a vertical KO. Two very good examples to prove this- Shiek is either right behind or right in front of D3 in fall speed at the very top of the list, but she's as light as Zelda and dies at the same % as zelda. Samus is also extremely floaty, yet she's a very heavy character. To further prove the point that you just make **** up, as seen here:

Luigi is significantly more vulnerable to vertical KOs than other middle weights. He has very low falling speed, which is an important factor in determining that.

D3 KO's Mario with uptilt at 103%
D3 KO's Luigi with uptilt at 102%
To sum up, fall speed has very very little to vertical KO survival- weight does. You can find out a ton more here
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

 

[hippiedude92]

I've not played around with D3's inhale all that much to see what all the options are but you should just slow down and start tossing fireballs at him for it. As for him KOing you with it- shouldn't happen unless he catches as he's already falling off the stage, press those buttons to get out of it and there is a lot of room for DI as you leave, even if he spits you, so be aware of that and DI the right way and keep your cool and you should be able to recover.
.

Okay just fought a D3, a little more detail about the inhale thing. Once they suck you up they either, spit you out so that your in the air and try to gimp OR, they suck you up, drop down near bottom of the stage and spit you under the stage such as Final Destination for instance so that you won't be able to recover.

 

[solidxgeo]

what u should do is take in factor that D3 is a big guy. roll dodge,dont get grabbed, try to be on the arial side and try to predict his moves

 

[Union of Darkness]

As for D3 dash attack, it's so humilating everytime i get ko'd from it.

When D3 lands I always get hit the stars next to it

I only have three comments.

-You should not be getting hit be Dedede's dash attack. It's extremely slow and should be punished accordingly. Just remember not to hang on the edge because DDD can connect with his dash attack if you hang for too long.

-Shield the landing of his up-b and punish him or attack him from the side during his decent. DO NOT risk attacking him from beneath.

-Dedede's chainthrow is escapable. I've been able to spot dodge with Falcon right when I land in the standing position. Just hold the shield button and time it right. I don't know if this is possible with Luigi, but keep it in mind.

 

[SparkEd]

DDD can't Chainthrow Luigi.

He can, however, INFINITE Grab Luigi. :x There's a difference.