Berserker.
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Luigi Match-up discussion (Started from the bottom, now we're here)
- Thread starter Berserker.
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relaxedexcorcist
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Thinking it's In Shulks favor. The main thing you wanna do onstage is not get grabbed and lucky for us, Luigi's low traction, speed and range kinda hurts him and makes it hard for him into his preferred zone without committing to a roll, power shielding, or you letting him in yourself. Luigi's traction and low mobility make aerials crazy good on shield cause the push back he receives even without Buster is pretty great, which means if Luigi want to get in by blocking he has to power shield. Aerials will also eat through his fireball so he can't use them as much as he'd like. So as long as you don't fall into a set rhythm during you're attacks and keep him guessing on when he has to shield he should have a very hard time getting in. If Luigi does get in and gets his throw combos it will hurt a lot as it does with most characters. He does have a few KO options out of grab, nair, cyclone, up-b (if he's bein' real ballsy/confident), and dair spike. I think they require a DI read but I don't actually know. Another thing to watch out for if he gets in is his Usmash, since he can trade attacks with the invincibility on it, can do it out of run and shield, and can KO you.
Luigi's recovery is one of his main weaknesses. It's not great but it's also good enough to get the job done and can go surprisingly far, but that's not a big deal as long as you know how to intercept it. With a second jump he can recover from very deep with the extra height he gets from Cyclone and his up-B. Though without a second jump Luigi either just cant get a good amount of height on Cyclone or you have to mash B an inhuman amount of times, don't know which. Because of this, he will probably never use his second jump before hand unless you're already hard committing to the below stage gimp. So Luigi will often opt to Missile towards the stage first in order to save his second jump, since as long as he has his jump he can recover from crazy deep. Bair works well for intercepting Missile and it KO's early. Air Slash works too if he's closer to the stage. In terms of Luigi edgeguarding Shulk I don't know if there's a lot he can do if you're spacing properly. He can hover a bit below stage with a Cyclone to try and nab your jump or stage spike you, but you can just space it out with an Air Slash, and possibly get behind him before hand and force him to recover.
Stage wise, I'd say avoid low ceilings cause Luigi likes to KO off the top, so ban I'd ban Halberd first and Delfino as well if allowed. For stages you'd want to take him to, I think Lylat (High ceiling + mean ledges), Duck Hunt (close horizontal blast zones + high ceiling) and maybe Battlefield (more space + platforms possibly protecting Shulk from some aerials?) are good.
Luigi's recovery is one of his main weaknesses. It's not great but it's also good enough to get the job done and can go surprisingly far, but that's not a big deal as long as you know how to intercept it. With a second jump he can recover from very deep with the extra height he gets from Cyclone and his up-B. Though without a second jump Luigi either just cant get a good amount of height on Cyclone or you have to mash B an inhuman amount of times, don't know which. Because of this, he will probably never use his second jump before hand unless you're already hard committing to the below stage gimp. So Luigi will often opt to Missile towards the stage first in order to save his second jump, since as long as he has his jump he can recover from crazy deep. Bair works well for intercepting Missile and it KO's early. Air Slash works too if he's closer to the stage. In terms of Luigi edgeguarding Shulk I don't know if there's a lot he can do if you're spacing properly. He can hover a bit below stage with a Cyclone to try and nab your jump or stage spike you, but you can just space it out with an Air Slash, and possibly get behind him before hand and force him to recover.
Stage wise, I'd say avoid low ceilings cause Luigi likes to KO off the top, so ban I'd ban Halberd first and Delfino as well if allowed. For stages you'd want to take him to, I think Lylat (High ceiling + mean ledges), Duck Hunt (close horizontal blast zones + high ceiling) and maybe Battlefield (more space + platforms possibly protecting Shulk from some aerials?) are good.
Berserker.
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This is a +1 a for Shulk (Could be +2 but that's REALLY stretching it imo). I'll cover some general things and how the Monado arts work in this match up
Pretty much, the objective for Shulk is to zone out Luigi as much as possible but a number of factors really tip it to Shulk's favor easily.
General things/TLDR:
Shulk has the range advantage over Luigi. He can easily zone out Luigi by simply spacing with his tilts and aerials. Second, Luigi's traction and mobility are awful. These traits allow Luigi to be much much easier to zone than characters like Falcon or Fox. The third factor is because any art can be a massive annoyance for Luigi in different ways. Speed and buster pretty much being the most annoying. Buster because you can match or out-do Luigi's damage off-throws. Speed because... it's speed but if you want me to be specific, he's really mobile with speed so combine that with range, that's really difficult to break into unless you have godlike frame data+great mobility.
Watch out for:
Getting grabbed and letting him get close to you. Once he gets close to you, he doesn't have to worry about your range since his attacks come out waaay faster than your attacks. Also, avoid approaching him especially with your aerials. You'll either get shield grabbed (grab = world of pain) or u-smashed. Don't try playing aggressively. At the very least if you have speed art, bait him out. Fire balls are an issue but you can swat them.
Oh and, he'll grab you eventually. It won't happen THAT often but when he does, well ****. The good thing is, you can make it difficult for him and you can also do that much damage if you have buster activated, but getting grabbed is still a no-no
Monado arts:
- Shield art messes up throw combos badly since you can punish Luigi FOR ACTUALLY THROWING YOU. You take less hitsun while in shield and also less damage so even if Luigi is damaging you, it will deal 33% less damage than usual. It's still damage but you're effectively reducing the reward Luigi gets out of his throws. Shield can be countered easily by being camped by fire balls so only use it when you're anticipating a grab
- Buster art allows you to land safe hits on shield while racking up insane amount of damage in a few seconds. I think the only reason why I'd (possibly) tip this to +2 is because of buster's DPS being on par with Luigi's damage off throw combos. If you know how to use Shulk's tilts correctly (which are still disjointed enough to be used for spacing against Luigi), you'll deal a LOT of damage from simply spacing Luigi out. Mix it up with your aerials and grabs to avoid getting predictable. Make sure you're either stationary or retreating while using aerials to space. Use u-tilt to cover aerial approaches, f-tilt/d-tilt to space, pivot f-tilt or jab when Luigi is closing in
- Speed art gives you one more option beyond zoning Luigi. You can bait Luigi into trying to grab you or trying to get a read on you then you can go in for the punish using boost pivot grab. I think it's better if you play it safe and play at mid-range with speed art. Take advantage of dat mobility and range and be incredibly difficult to grab. Retreating n-airs/f-airs, pivot f-tilts, pivot f-smash for spacing.
- Jump art gives you the same utility as speed only without the ground speed boost so pivoting isn't really as effective but it's still an option. I'd rather relegate jump for edgeguarding Luigi off-stage. Using jump on-stage is risky and even if you're trying to play defensively with jump, it's a lot easier to play similarly with speed and buster. Luigi's recovery isn't bad in a sense that once he's off-stage, there's no way he's getting back. It's just easy to edgeguard. You can intercept him by outranging his options with f-air or b-air. Oh, and of course, you should use it when recovering back on stage. I'm not exactly sure on what Luigi can do to edgeguard Shulk either since air slash has ridiculously long range (his aerials also have long range but that's a given)
- Smash art is probably the riskiest to use since Luigi's up B (and any of his KO options) can KO you at lower percentages but even then, you can still outspace Luigi. Nothing much to say about Smash art. It's for KO'ing. The end.
Pretty much, the objective for Shulk is to zone out Luigi as much as possible but a number of factors really tip it to Shulk's favor easily.
General things/TLDR:
Shulk has the range advantage over Luigi. He can easily zone out Luigi by simply spacing with his tilts and aerials. Second, Luigi's traction and mobility are awful. These traits allow Luigi to be much much easier to zone than characters like Falcon or Fox. The third factor is because any art can be a massive annoyance for Luigi in different ways. Speed and buster pretty much being the most annoying. Buster because you can match or out-do Luigi's damage off-throws. Speed because... it's speed but if you want me to be specific, he's really mobile with speed so combine that with range, that's really difficult to break into unless you have godlike frame data+great mobility.
Watch out for:
Getting grabbed and letting him get close to you. Once he gets close to you, he doesn't have to worry about your range since his attacks come out waaay faster than your attacks. Also, avoid approaching him especially with your aerials. You'll either get shield grabbed (grab = world of pain) or u-smashed. Don't try playing aggressively. At the very least if you have speed art, bait him out. Fire balls are an issue but you can swat them.
Oh and, he'll grab you eventually. It won't happen THAT often but when he does, well ****. The good thing is, you can make it difficult for him and you can also do that much damage if you have buster activated, but getting grabbed is still a no-no
Monado arts:
- Shield art messes up throw combos badly since you can punish Luigi FOR ACTUALLY THROWING YOU. You take less hitsun while in shield and also less damage so even if Luigi is damaging you, it will deal 33% less damage than usual. It's still damage but you're effectively reducing the reward Luigi gets out of his throws. Shield can be countered easily by being camped by fire balls so only use it when you're anticipating a grab
- Buster art allows you to land safe hits on shield while racking up insane amount of damage in a few seconds. I think the only reason why I'd (possibly) tip this to +2 is because of buster's DPS being on par with Luigi's damage off throw combos. If you know how to use Shulk's tilts correctly (which are still disjointed enough to be used for spacing against Luigi), you'll deal a LOT of damage from simply spacing Luigi out. Mix it up with your aerials and grabs to avoid getting predictable. Make sure you're either stationary or retreating while using aerials to space. Use u-tilt to cover aerial approaches, f-tilt/d-tilt to space, pivot f-tilt or jab when Luigi is closing in
- Speed art gives you one more option beyond zoning Luigi. You can bait Luigi into trying to grab you or trying to get a read on you then you can go in for the punish using boost pivot grab. I think it's better if you play it safe and play at mid-range with speed art. Take advantage of dat mobility and range and be incredibly difficult to grab. Retreating n-airs/f-airs, pivot f-tilts, pivot f-smash for spacing.
- Jump art gives you the same utility as speed only without the ground speed boost so pivoting isn't really as effective but it's still an option. I'd rather relegate jump for edgeguarding Luigi off-stage. Using jump on-stage is risky and even if you're trying to play defensively with jump, it's a lot easier to play similarly with speed and buster. Luigi's recovery isn't bad in a sense that once he's off-stage, there's no way he's getting back. It's just easy to edgeguard. You can intercept him by outranging his options with f-air or b-air. Oh, and of course, you should use it when recovering back on stage. I'm not exactly sure on what Luigi can do to edgeguard Shulk either since air slash has ridiculously long range (his aerials also have long range but that's a given)
- Smash art is probably the riskiest to use since Luigi's up B (and any of his KO options) can KO you at lower percentages but even then, you can still outspace Luigi. Nothing much to say about Smash art. It's for KO'ing. The end.
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D
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I know Luigi like the back of my hand; I've played this character for years to know his intricacies, strengths, and weaknesses.
Shulk
Range and out-spacing; these are two key things Shulk has advantage over Luigi. You want to out-space this against Luigi as he can't get in on you or has trouble doing so. The key moves to use are his tilts, nair, fair, and bair.
Luigi doesn't have too many weaknesses as he is a pretty balanced character like Mario is. As a result, I find all of the Monado Arts to be useful in this fight. Jump can be useful for Shulk getting away from Luigi and get some off-stage kills that Luigi can't prevent. Speed can put pressure on Luigi and can easily out-space him. While Luigi has a lot of good kill moves, he struggles against Shield and his combos are kinda weakened. Buster is effective as Luigi will have a harder time if you space it properly; just be careful because if you get grabbed in Buster, you will definitely lose your lead (more on that later). Smash is good if Luigi is at later percents; don't use this if you are at a high percentage.
While I mentioned that Luigi is a balanced character, he has two glaring weaknesses. First, his traction is terrible. Using his shield is very risky in many situations as Luigi can be pushed off the stage and get meteored by someone (this happened to me). Second, his recovery is kinda predictable and can be gimped. Luigi's air speed isn't a major factor here besides Shulk having an easier time comboing him; you can't pressure Luigi with your own ground or air speed in this fight (this is why the Little Mac match-up is tough, Little Mac can pressure Luigi with his ground speed and powerful attacks)
Despite this, Luigi has some major strengths against Shulk and this is why Shulk's air speed is key here; his down throw is godly. Luigi has a ton of follow-up moves that he can do against opponents at earlier percents and later percents, making him very unpredictable in that regard. If you are careless with Buster, you will take more damage from Luigi's barrage of combos alone.
One more key thing you want to do here is pressure him by spacing and pivoting your side tilt and grabs. Doing so, Luigi will have a hard time responding to each of these moves and will struggle against him as a result.
Luigi
I know that some might say that Shulk has the advantage here; I beg to differ. While Shulk has a lot of good tools against Luigi, they don't outright destroy them. Let me explain...
His key approaches are his Fireballs, Luigi Cyclone, and short hop aerials. His Fireballs will stun the opponent, allowing him to rush in and grab them; it also provides some spacing between him and Shulk. The Luigi Cyclone twirls foes about and can set up some combos for Luigi. His aerials are also incredible as Luigi can short hop and use them to pressure Shulk. He might also do some empty jumps to get a clean grab in. Another useful tool is nair; this move isn't as powerful as it was in Brawl, but Luigi can use it to space between him and Shulk and, if Shulk gets hit by it, Luigi might follow up with an attack.
In my opinion, Luigi's worst match-ups come from characters who destroy his approaches; Mr. Game & Watch severely hinders his Fireballs with Oil Panic and Little Mac just puts endless amounts of pressure on Luigi and Luigi has a tough time following up on him. Shulk weakens his Fireball and short hop aerials, but Luigi can use the Luigi Cyclone to his advantage against Shulk.
His down throw is scary against Shulk; at earlier percents, Shulk is combo meat for Luigi and can follow up with fairs, spiked dairs, uairs, and up-tilts. Luigi particularly struggles against Shulk at later percents, but know that Luigi has some good tools that he can use to kill Shulk with his down throw. He can use nair, bair, the Super Jump Punch, the Luigi Cyclone (or, as a tournament called it, the "Hoo-Hah-nado"), or even not go in the air and use a smash attack.
As Shulk, don't spam smash attacks. Luigi can use Shulk's end-lag on those moves to his advantage to punish Shulk and do massive amounts of damage with a good smash attack, Super Jump Punch, or a down throw combo.
Luigi will possibly never attack you off-stage. He might use bairs or dairs (or maybe even the Luigi Cyclone), but that's about it. His range is weak and he has a hard time gimping characters in general. Luigi mains, mix-up your recoveries here if you can or else you might face some terrible consequences as Shulk is amazing off-stage.
Stages
Luigi heavily benefits from platforms; a stage like Battlefield, Smashville, and Town & City would be good for him. Luigi's performance at Final Destination is questionable.
For Shulk mains, I wouldn't be too afraid to bring Luigi to Battlefield for one good reason; Shulk's edge-guarding. If you down tilt against Luigi, he has limited options. Maybe he can roll back on, but you might follow-up on him. He can jump, but Shulk's up tilt is largely benefited here as it can go through Battlefield's platforms. Duck Hunt is also a good stage against Luigi because his Fireballs are weakened thanks to the Ducks and the higher ceiling makes it harder for Luigi to grab some vertical KOs (Luigi is more of a vertical killer).
Overall
I say that both sides have their strengths and weaknesses.
On one hand, Shulk has amazing spacing and pressure that can be used against Luigi. On the other hand, Shulk is basically combo meat for Luigi early on and can struggle against him.
I think this match-up is 50:50. If not... 55:45... Luigi. I've faced really good Shulks and my fair share of mediocre ones, but he hasn't been a character that I am afraid of to fight against with Luigi, unlike a character such as Mr. Game & Watch and Little Mac. Shulk's spacing is incredible, but I think that Luigi just has some good pros against Shulk.
EDIT: Yeah, I'm going with a 50:50 on this one for sure. Luigi can butcher Shulk, but Shulk can limit Luigi in certain situations.
Shulk
Range and out-spacing; these are two key things Shulk has advantage over Luigi. You want to out-space this against Luigi as he can't get in on you or has trouble doing so. The key moves to use are his tilts, nair, fair, and bair.
Luigi doesn't have too many weaknesses as he is a pretty balanced character like Mario is. As a result, I find all of the Monado Arts to be useful in this fight. Jump can be useful for Shulk getting away from Luigi and get some off-stage kills that Luigi can't prevent. Speed can put pressure on Luigi and can easily out-space him. While Luigi has a lot of good kill moves, he struggles against Shield and his combos are kinda weakened. Buster is effective as Luigi will have a harder time if you space it properly; just be careful because if you get grabbed in Buster, you will definitely lose your lead (more on that later). Smash is good if Luigi is at later percents; don't use this if you are at a high percentage.
While I mentioned that Luigi is a balanced character, he has two glaring weaknesses. First, his traction is terrible. Using his shield is very risky in many situations as Luigi can be pushed off the stage and get meteored by someone (this happened to me). Second, his recovery is kinda predictable and can be gimped. Luigi's air speed isn't a major factor here besides Shulk having an easier time comboing him; you can't pressure Luigi with your own ground or air speed in this fight (this is why the Little Mac match-up is tough, Little Mac can pressure Luigi with his ground speed and powerful attacks)
Despite this, Luigi has some major strengths against Shulk and this is why Shulk's air speed is key here; his down throw is godly. Luigi has a ton of follow-up moves that he can do against opponents at earlier percents and later percents, making him very unpredictable in that regard. If you are careless with Buster, you will take more damage from Luigi's barrage of combos alone.
One more key thing you want to do here is pressure him by spacing and pivoting your side tilt and grabs. Doing so, Luigi will have a hard time responding to each of these moves and will struggle against him as a result.
Luigi
I know that some might say that Shulk has the advantage here; I beg to differ. While Shulk has a lot of good tools against Luigi, they don't outright destroy them. Let me explain...
His key approaches are his Fireballs, Luigi Cyclone, and short hop aerials. His Fireballs will stun the opponent, allowing him to rush in and grab them; it also provides some spacing between him and Shulk. The Luigi Cyclone twirls foes about and can set up some combos for Luigi. His aerials are also incredible as Luigi can short hop and use them to pressure Shulk. He might also do some empty jumps to get a clean grab in. Another useful tool is nair; this move isn't as powerful as it was in Brawl, but Luigi can use it to space between him and Shulk and, if Shulk gets hit by it, Luigi might follow up with an attack.
In my opinion, Luigi's worst match-ups come from characters who destroy his approaches; Mr. Game & Watch severely hinders his Fireballs with Oil Panic and Little Mac just puts endless amounts of pressure on Luigi and Luigi has a tough time following up on him. Shulk weakens his Fireball and short hop aerials, but Luigi can use the Luigi Cyclone to his advantage against Shulk.
His down throw is scary against Shulk; at earlier percents, Shulk is combo meat for Luigi and can follow up with fairs, spiked dairs, uairs, and up-tilts. Luigi particularly struggles against Shulk at later percents, but know that Luigi has some good tools that he can use to kill Shulk with his down throw. He can use nair, bair, the Super Jump Punch, the Luigi Cyclone (or, as a tournament called it, the "Hoo-Hah-nado"), or even not go in the air and use a smash attack.
As Shulk, don't spam smash attacks. Luigi can use Shulk's end-lag on those moves to his advantage to punish Shulk and do massive amounts of damage with a good smash attack, Super Jump Punch, or a down throw combo.
Luigi will possibly never attack you off-stage. He might use bairs or dairs (or maybe even the Luigi Cyclone), but that's about it. His range is weak and he has a hard time gimping characters in general. Luigi mains, mix-up your recoveries here if you can or else you might face some terrible consequences as Shulk is amazing off-stage.
Stages
Luigi heavily benefits from platforms; a stage like Battlefield, Smashville, and Town & City would be good for him. Luigi's performance at Final Destination is questionable.
For Shulk mains, I wouldn't be too afraid to bring Luigi to Battlefield for one good reason; Shulk's edge-guarding. If you down tilt against Luigi, he has limited options. Maybe he can roll back on, but you might follow-up on him. He can jump, but Shulk's up tilt is largely benefited here as it can go through Battlefield's platforms. Duck Hunt is also a good stage against Luigi because his Fireballs are weakened thanks to the Ducks and the higher ceiling makes it harder for Luigi to grab some vertical KOs (Luigi is more of a vertical killer).
Overall
I say that both sides have their strengths and weaknesses.
On one hand, Shulk has amazing spacing and pressure that can be used against Luigi. On the other hand, Shulk is basically combo meat for Luigi early on and can struggle against him.
I think this match-up is 50:50. If not... 55:45... Luigi. I've faced really good Shulks and my fair share of mediocre ones, but he hasn't been a character that I am afraid of to fight against with Luigi, unlike a character such as Mr. Game & Watch and Little Mac. Shulk's spacing is incredible, but I think that Luigi just has some good pros against Shulk.
EDIT: Yeah, I'm going with a 50:50 on this one for sure. Luigi can butcher Shulk, but Shulk can limit Luigi in certain situations.
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Berserker.
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Not denying this. It's going to suck if Luigi manages to actually get a grab but he's going to have to work for it. Also, speed art/jump art increases air mobility but I'd rather use speed art to avoid taking additional damage. I only jump for off-stage purposes
That's the other issue. Luigi's suppose to be approaching in this match up. You can't really force Shulk to approach so he'll need to run in for the grab. Problem is that he lacks approach options. SH aerials and fireballs aren't really effective against Shulk because they can be dealt with by n-air/f-air against fire balls and u-tilt or any aerial against Luigi's aerials. His only option to actually get into Shulk's zone is Luigi cyclone but that's about it. His approach options are too limited against Shulk. Not saying that Luigi's tornado won't work. It helps Luigi but it makes his approach more predictable (this is also a problem Shulk has, he lacks approach options which makes him predictable but he doesn't have to approach in this MU. Thankfully)
Hoo-Hah-nado is weird. I mean, it works but I have fallen out of it half the time. It's inconsistent. U-smash is effective only if Shulk is approaching from mid-air (which usually isn't suppose to happen). I usually get KO'd by Luigi's b-air sometimes (off-stage) or u-smash. If you read correctly, u-smash will work. If the Shulk seems n-air/f-air/b-air happy, he's asking for u-smash to KO him
As said, he's going to have to work to get the grab. D-throw is godlike against anyone but if that said character has the ability to keep Luigi out (Luigi will eventually land a grab on you), Luigi will have a difficult time or at least, a slightly difficult time. It also doesn't help at all that Luigi's mobility and traction aren't all that great. To add to that, his options for approaching are limited in this match up.
Shulk can use his arts to make it either more difficult for Luigi to approach or more rewarding to zone out the green machine. Speed art is going to be a pain for Luigi to deal with. If Buster is used properly (that means tilts, aerials and grabs are properly used and mixed up), you can demoralize the said Luigi player since buster can deal a ton of damage in a short span of time. Getting grabbed in buster or jump though, hnnngh.
I think this match up is in Shulk's favor but I appreciate a different perspective and opinion, as always
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Soupy
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I wouldn't say this match-up is 100% in Shulks favor. I'd like to wager it's at least 50/50. I also can't agree with Luigi having trouble using fireballs as much as he wants. Against a character that doesn't also have a projectile, what's to stop me from fireball camping to my hearts content?
I think the one thing I have trouble with is the speed monado, because of quick follow-ups due to Luigi's terrible air speed, but in that case, the Luigi player is being approached which is definitely what we want. However, I'd be careful using shield monado too often. Up-tilt is an EXTREMELY good option for heavier characters, which I just discovered today after finding a combo that can get DK from 0-60%.
Also, keep in mind Luigi isn't always forced to recover low. Against characters that can go just as deep as I can, I have no problem recovering very high. Especially on platform stages.
Now I can understand it being 40/60 in favor of Shulk if the Luigi is over aggressive and constantly fishing for grabs and up smashes because that's his problem against every fast character but overall, I think you guys are assuming that over aggressive approaching Luigi is the only way to play him.
In terms of stages, I actually very much dislike Delfino, Battlefield, and Duck Hunt.
My favored ones are Halberd, Town And City, Smashville, and Lylat.
I think the one thing I have trouble with is the speed monado, because of quick follow-ups due to Luigi's terrible air speed, but in that case, the Luigi player is being approached which is definitely what we want. However, I'd be careful using shield monado too often. Up-tilt is an EXTREMELY good option for heavier characters, which I just discovered today after finding a combo that can get DK from 0-60%.
Also, keep in mind Luigi isn't always forced to recover low. Against characters that can go just as deep as I can, I have no problem recovering very high. Especially on platform stages.
Now I can understand it being 40/60 in favor of Shulk if the Luigi is over aggressive and constantly fishing for grabs and up smashes because that's his problem against every fast character but overall, I think you guys are assuming that over aggressive approaching Luigi is the only way to play him.
In terms of stages, I actually very much dislike Delfino, Battlefield, and Duck Hunt.
My favored ones are Halberd, Town And City, Smashville, and Lylat.
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Berserker.
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HMMM.... I actually have never fought a Luigi that actually attempted doing this at any tournament or local friendly so I'm not sure what to say about this.
If I were to theorize, this could work.... but if Luigi is too predictable with it, Shulk can simultaneously swat the fire ball while hitting Luigi with a rush down n-air.
Take this statement with a grain of salt though. Idk. The Luigis I deal with are thirsty for the grab so I can only speak from that perspective
Edit: RAR B-air works well against fire ball spam.
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Soupy
Sage of Wind
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A good chunks of Luigi's are, because we put it into their heads that fireball -> down throw -> whatever is the only option Luigi has when in reality, he's a very versatile character. I can say with all honesty that I don't think anything in his kit is bad. However, in my earlier Smash 4 Luigi days, I was very guilty of fishing for grabs. I also thought that up smash was his only kill option haha.
What I usually do is fireball to approach, and retreating short hop fast fall b-air to space a bit. However, short hop fast fall in place n-air is very good as a mix-up for heavy approaching characters as well, because the pop-up from a sour spotted n-air is perfect for up tilt combos. Short hop d-air is pretty decent as well.
Most of the time, when I face characters that out range me in most cases, I usually try to wait for them to approach me. I will agree that a RAR bair from Shulk would most likely be terrifying, though. However, if overused, it could end up being power shielded and lead to a quick grab. I'm not sure how bad the landing lag from Shulk's b-air is, though? It might require some precise timing.
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Berserker.
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RAR B-air's definitely the best option but it's undeniably slow and the landing lag is bad. If used too much, the Luigi is likely to anticipate it again and powershield then grab. I think the safest opportunity to use RAR B-air safely is when Luigi is about to throw out his fire ball but it's sort of strict on timing and the spacing has to be precise.
RAR B-air isn't his only option though. F-air or N-air work well against fireballs, but both aerials need some sort of momentum to actually hit Luigi while swatting fire ball/s since their range isn't as long as b-air's.
Tip: Shield grab the aerials. Their hitboxes take a while to come out. I'm not really expecting you to PS everything, but shield grabbing is a good strategy against Shulk's aerials when he's approaching you with 'em.
Edit 2: Overlooked this part of the post. Whoops
Using anything on shield Monado at 0% ain't a good idea. At that percentage, hitting Shield Shulk is unsafe because he takes less damage from your attacks (33% less than usual). In other words, he takes less hitsun in shield art. IIRC, someone (@
Virum
) posted positive output regarding shield against Luigi since shield art's defense allowed him to punish Luigi during mid combos.~~~~
Fire balls probably work but I still don't think that it's enough to cover up the other flaws of the match up. It's also not that guaranteed, since Shulk also has answers against the strategy, but you can counter his answers too by shield grabbing. Outside of fire balling Shulk, a lot of factors still make it Shulk's favor and it's not only because Shulk has the tools to deal with most of Luigi's options. It's because Luigi's attributes (his mobility and traction) make him much easier to keep away. He's forced to use fire balls to provoke Shulk into approaching and hopefully making a mistake to capitalize on.
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Virum
Smash Ace
I've played quite a bit against JMiller's Luigi (probably the best Luigi in Europe and one of the best Smash 4 players in Europe in general after people like Mr R). He plays the character more patient than most people and is careful to analyse play styles and habits before attempting to capitalise.
Fireball is a much stronger projectile compared to previous games and works well as a zoning and pressure tool due to its vastly decreased endlag. Consequently power shielding it isn't always the best option. If you're up close and in Luigi's face when he fires it then power shield to grab or jab is a good response but if you're further away it's better to NAir/FAir the fireball to neutralise it (jab works too but requires tighter timing) as shielding it in any way gives Luigi enough time to rush in and boost grab you and as we all know getting grabbed by Luigi puts you in a world of hurt.
Shulk's main goal in the matchup is to keep Luigi away from him. Luigi is pretty hard to combo and despite the low range of his aerials they are fast, hit hard and have good priority so never feel you need to persist with a punish unless you force Luigi offstage or very high. Meanwhile Luigi can deal a world of hurt to Shulk if he can get in for a punish. As a result Shield is great for this matchup at low percents as it allows you to keep the game in midrange neutral almost all the time. A lot of Luigi's low percent grab combos stop working while in Shield allowing Shulk to quickly force Luigi away. Meanwhile due to Luigi's poor speed overall he can actually have more trouble camping Shield Shulk than one would expect.
Speed is also fantastic for this matchup for fairly obvious reasons. It makes it more difficult for Luigi to sustain his punishes as it's easier to weave away from potential mix up situations. Jump is similar but riskier as you could end up taking a lot more damage despite the superior mobility. Buster and Smash are riskier due to Luigi's high damage output and strong kill setups however go for them if you're able to establish prior momentum.
Luigi's most powerful tool is most definitely his DThrow. It's where he gets most of his damage from so it's absolutely essential you take care to DI it well. At low percents DI behind and above Luigi as it becomes much harder for him to sustain his punish after if you're behind him. If you're at higher percent DI in front of him so he can only hit you with a FAir or Down B, the former of which doesn't kill until late (comparative to BAir which hits like a truck) and the latter can be DI'd out of by holding down and away. The other main thing to watch out for is Luigi's jab. It's fast and overall a great tool in neutral for Luigi as he's able to get quite a bit of milage from it, allowing him to reset the situation or go for a mixup.
Both characters have strong edgeguard games. Shulk has to be weary about recovering low while Luigi has to be weary about recovering high. Though Shulk is able to challenge Luigi's edgeguard attempts with his own aerials. Despite my comments I actually think the matchup is pretty even due to the strength of Luigi's punishes and him having very solid kill setups.
Fireball is a much stronger projectile compared to previous games and works well as a zoning and pressure tool due to its vastly decreased endlag. Consequently power shielding it isn't always the best option. If you're up close and in Luigi's face when he fires it then power shield to grab or jab is a good response but if you're further away it's better to NAir/FAir the fireball to neutralise it (jab works too but requires tighter timing) as shielding it in any way gives Luigi enough time to rush in and boost grab you and as we all know getting grabbed by Luigi puts you in a world of hurt.
Shulk's main goal in the matchup is to keep Luigi away from him. Luigi is pretty hard to combo and despite the low range of his aerials they are fast, hit hard and have good priority so never feel you need to persist with a punish unless you force Luigi offstage or very high. Meanwhile Luigi can deal a world of hurt to Shulk if he can get in for a punish. As a result Shield is great for this matchup at low percents as it allows you to keep the game in midrange neutral almost all the time. A lot of Luigi's low percent grab combos stop working while in Shield allowing Shulk to quickly force Luigi away. Meanwhile due to Luigi's poor speed overall he can actually have more trouble camping Shield Shulk than one would expect.
Speed is also fantastic for this matchup for fairly obvious reasons. It makes it more difficult for Luigi to sustain his punishes as it's easier to weave away from potential mix up situations. Jump is similar but riskier as you could end up taking a lot more damage despite the superior mobility. Buster and Smash are riskier due to Luigi's high damage output and strong kill setups however go for them if you're able to establish prior momentum.
Luigi's most powerful tool is most definitely his DThrow. It's where he gets most of his damage from so it's absolutely essential you take care to DI it well. At low percents DI behind and above Luigi as it becomes much harder for him to sustain his punish after if you're behind him. If you're at higher percent DI in front of him so he can only hit you with a FAir or Down B, the former of which doesn't kill until late (comparative to BAir which hits like a truck) and the latter can be DI'd out of by holding down and away. The other main thing to watch out for is Luigi's jab. It's fast and overall a great tool in neutral for Luigi as he's able to get quite a bit of milage from it, allowing him to reset the situation or go for a mixup.
Both characters have strong edgeguard games. Shulk has to be weary about recovering low while Luigi has to be weary about recovering high. Though Shulk is able to challenge Luigi's edgeguard attempts with his own aerials. Despite my comments I actually think the matchup is pretty even due to the strength of Luigi's punishes and him having very solid kill setups.
Berserker.
:^)
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 18,990
Alright. The score's ranging from +1 to +0 so we'll use both scores for now
Good stuff @
Soupy
, @XenoBrawler610 (From the Weegee boards)
Good stuff @
Soupy
, @XenoBrawler610 (From the Weegee boards)
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spiderfreak1011
Smash Ace
I've fought @King_Peachee 's Luigi and @Masonomace 's "Pocket" Luigi (even tho given how good he is it feels like he almost mains the character), so i think i know enough on the Match Up to discuss.
The Neutral
When it comes to the neutral game, Shulk definitely wants to keep Luigi away from him and space him out with his range. When i first fought Luigi, i was surprised at how literally how quick his aerials came out one after the other, and i quickly got overwhelmed at first. If you play it at close range, chances are you're gonna get hit first due or you'll clash most times, so keeping him away is neccessary. I typically find Speed good for overwhelming Luigi and getting in a rhythm of racking up damage before he can really do the same to you. Buster is also viable in this Match Up but i wouldn't use it at the beginning of a fresh stock, due to Luigi's good combo game, so i'd use it probably in the 40%-50% and up range. Luigi's grab game is to be respected, he can easily turn the tides and close up the gap if he's behind with his grabs and combo into U-Tilt and his fast aerials, so be wary of that. His Smash Attacks arent anything to scoff at either, his F-Smash comes out relatively quick and has good Knockback. Also, I haven't really tried using it in this MU, but i want to say Shield wouldn't be a good choice for the same reason it's not good against Sheik and Mega Man (aka, you become Combo food).
Offstage/Edge Guarding
As for Edge Guarding, I feel it's not as easy as alot of people claim that it is to be. Luigi can still challenge Shulk with his quick aerials if he manages to time and dodge Shulk's Edge Guard attempt. I don't neccessarily know if it's just me, but i find it risky and difficult to gimp Luigi when he uses his Side Special (i forget the official name). The Hitbox lasts throughout the entire animation and time that he's flying horizontally, if you don't time your Aerial right and get hit, you could easily get Stage spiked at worst, or just damaged and fail to edge guard at best. Not to mention there's always the 1/8th chance that Luigi will get a fully charged Side Special instantly, and should that hit you off stage, you can bet it's going to hurt, and you're even more likely to be stage spiked. Luigi can also be unpredictable and pull out his Tornado for recovery, and while that won't get you killed, it's likely to hit you if you try to Edge Guard him. It's not impossible to gimp him thanks to the Momentum of Jump and Speed and good timing, but i find it's difficult to Edge Guard Luigi compared to other characters due to his Side and Down Specials.
As for the reversed case, should Luigi be edge guarding Shulk, Shulk can still challenge Luigi with his own Aerials aswell, and Luigi doesn't neccessarily have the best Vertical Recovery so he can't go in too deep (aside from Tornado, which is risky to use if you don't Mash B fast enough, his Up Special isn't too good when it comes to Vertical Height). And Shulk always has Jump to rely on aswell.
Honestly, i wanna say this MU is 50:50, if not like 52:48 Shulk's favor. He has a slight advantage in the MU in my opinion, but Luigi has the tools to combat Shulk aswell if he can manage to get in and turn the tables. Likewise, Shulk has the tools to do the same to him. I vote that this MU is +0, even.
The Neutral
When it comes to the neutral game, Shulk definitely wants to keep Luigi away from him and space him out with his range. When i first fought Luigi, i was surprised at how literally how quick his aerials came out one after the other, and i quickly got overwhelmed at first. If you play it at close range, chances are you're gonna get hit first due or you'll clash most times, so keeping him away is neccessary. I typically find Speed good for overwhelming Luigi and getting in a rhythm of racking up damage before he can really do the same to you. Buster is also viable in this Match Up but i wouldn't use it at the beginning of a fresh stock, due to Luigi's good combo game, so i'd use it probably in the 40%-50% and up range. Luigi's grab game is to be respected, he can easily turn the tides and close up the gap if he's behind with his grabs and combo into U-Tilt and his fast aerials, so be wary of that. His Smash Attacks arent anything to scoff at either, his F-Smash comes out relatively quick and has good Knockback. Also, I haven't really tried using it in this MU, but i want to say Shield wouldn't be a good choice for the same reason it's not good against Sheik and Mega Man (aka, you become Combo food).
Offstage/Edge Guarding
As for Edge Guarding, I feel it's not as easy as alot of people claim that it is to be. Luigi can still challenge Shulk with his quick aerials if he manages to time and dodge Shulk's Edge Guard attempt. I don't neccessarily know if it's just me, but i find it risky and difficult to gimp Luigi when he uses his Side Special (i forget the official name). The Hitbox lasts throughout the entire animation and time that he's flying horizontally, if you don't time your Aerial right and get hit, you could easily get Stage spiked at worst, or just damaged and fail to edge guard at best. Not to mention there's always the 1/8th chance that Luigi will get a fully charged Side Special instantly, and should that hit you off stage, you can bet it's going to hurt, and you're even more likely to be stage spiked. Luigi can also be unpredictable and pull out his Tornado for recovery, and while that won't get you killed, it's likely to hit you if you try to Edge Guard him. It's not impossible to gimp him thanks to the Momentum of Jump and Speed and good timing, but i find it's difficult to Edge Guard Luigi compared to other characters due to his Side and Down Specials.
As for the reversed case, should Luigi be edge guarding Shulk, Shulk can still challenge Luigi with his own Aerials aswell, and Luigi doesn't neccessarily have the best Vertical Recovery so he can't go in too deep (aside from Tornado, which is risky to use if you don't Mash B fast enough, his Up Special isn't too good when it comes to Vertical Height). And Shulk always has Jump to rely on aswell.
Honestly, i wanna say this MU is 50:50, if not like 52:48 Shulk's favor. He has a slight advantage in the MU in my opinion, but Luigi has the tools to combat Shulk aswell if he can manage to get in and turn the tables. Likewise, Shulk has the tools to do the same to him. I vote that this MU is +0, even.
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erico9001
You must find your own path to the future.
Every time I face this character I have issues =/. Reading through the comments, I am understanding what I'm doing wrong.
A) Shielding his fireballs, giving him a nice chance to grab me
B) DI'ing wrong
C) Expecting to be able to string/combo against him better than is possible
D) Not edgeguarding him correctly. I need to anticipate him going low.
E) Approaching (I started to pick up on this one myself
)
I'll try improving on these things. Although, if approaching is bad, what can we do if he takes the first stock?
A) Shielding his fireballs, giving him a nice chance to grab me
B) DI'ing wrong
C) Expecting to be able to string/combo against him better than is possible
D) Not edgeguarding him correctly. I need to anticipate him going low.
E) Approaching (I started to pick up on this one myself
)I'll try improving on these things. Although, if approaching is bad, what can we do if he takes the first stock?
spiderfreak1011
Smash Ace
If he takes first stock, immediately switch to Speed and try overwhelming him. When he gets you to a decently high percent (like 50%+) should he still have one stock over you, go Buster to rack up his damage and have safe shield pressure and get his percent as high as possible.Every time I face this character I have issues =/. Reading through the comments, I am understanding what I'm doing wrong.
A) Shielding his fireballs, giving him a nice chance to grab me
B) DI'ing wrong
C) Expecting to be able to string/combo against him better than is possible
D) Not edgeguarding him correctly. I need to anticipate him going low.
E) Approaching (I started to pick up on this one myself
I'll try improving on these things. Although, if approaching is bad, what can we do if he takes the first stock?
D
Deleted member
Guest
After a couple of battles with good Luigis as Shulk and fighting Shulks as Luigi, I have to say that my new rating for this is 55:45 or 60:40 Luigi.
Two big pros with Shulk in this fight are his range and his off-stage game. Shulk's amazing range can pressure Luigi. Luigi doesn't have too much of a response against rush down reversal bair especially. Speed is by far the most effective Art in this fight. In the air, Luigi is basically defenseless; Shulk's air speed with Speed and Jump will pressure him while Shulk can chase him with Speed and do a smash attack as Luigi's air speed is very poor. As for Shulk's off-stage game, Luigi has no response to it. He will get gimped and will be unable to recover if you attack correctly.
Unfortunately for Shulk, I think that Luigi exploits two key weaknesses; Shulk's laggy attacks and his inability to escape Luigi's combos.
Shulk's attacks are very laggy and if you miss an attack, you will get punished by him. Luigi's ways of punishing are incredible. He can do a Super Jump Punch, an attack that can kill you at reasonable percents. A smash attack, his side smash in particular is amazing. His up tilt, it might not be a kill move, but it sets up a lot of combos. The Luigi Cyclone, which sucks you in and you will have trouble escaping it. And lastly, his down throw, which can set up a lot of combos and even KO moves.
The key reason as to why I think this match-up is in Luigi's favor is because of Luigi's combos. Shulk can't air dodge out of them and he doesn't have any attacks that are quick enough to escape, such as one of Mario's or Yoshi's attacks. As a result, Luigi can and will keep Shulk in the air as much as he likes and how much as he wants. As a result, Shulk can reach 60% rather quickly through one good setup.
To me, Shulk is the definition of "combo meat"; once he gets combo'd, it's hard for him to escape. This problem is even seen with his match-up against Mario, only less so.
The flatter the stage, the worse for Shulk... Final Destination is his nightmare.
Luigi is a character that I've seen give Shulk trouble. I have even saw a tournament where one of the best Shulks I've seen lost to a Luigi. He is not a character that you should underestimate; once he gets in, which can be very easy to do, he will punish you.
The match-up could change depending on how the balance patch goes. But, as of right now, I think this is a bad match-up for Shulk. Try to outplay Luigi, go on a stage that is really good for Shulk (such as Battlefield), or bring in a pocket character that gives Luigi a tough time (such as Greninja or Little Mac).
Two big pros with Shulk in this fight are his range and his off-stage game. Shulk's amazing range can pressure Luigi. Luigi doesn't have too much of a response against rush down reversal bair especially. Speed is by far the most effective Art in this fight. In the air, Luigi is basically defenseless; Shulk's air speed with Speed and Jump will pressure him while Shulk can chase him with Speed and do a smash attack as Luigi's air speed is very poor. As for Shulk's off-stage game, Luigi has no response to it. He will get gimped and will be unable to recover if you attack correctly.
Unfortunately for Shulk, I think that Luigi exploits two key weaknesses; Shulk's laggy attacks and his inability to escape Luigi's combos.
Shulk's attacks are very laggy and if you miss an attack, you will get punished by him. Luigi's ways of punishing are incredible. He can do a Super Jump Punch, an attack that can kill you at reasonable percents. A smash attack, his side smash in particular is amazing. His up tilt, it might not be a kill move, but it sets up a lot of combos. The Luigi Cyclone, which sucks you in and you will have trouble escaping it. And lastly, his down throw, which can set up a lot of combos and even KO moves.
The key reason as to why I think this match-up is in Luigi's favor is because of Luigi's combos. Shulk can't air dodge out of them and he doesn't have any attacks that are quick enough to escape, such as one of Mario's or Yoshi's attacks. As a result, Luigi can and will keep Shulk in the air as much as he likes and how much as he wants. As a result, Shulk can reach 60% rather quickly through one good setup.
To me, Shulk is the definition of "combo meat"; once he gets combo'd, it's hard for him to escape. This problem is even seen with his match-up against Mario, only less so.
The flatter the stage, the worse for Shulk... Final Destination is his nightmare.
Luigi is a character that I've seen give Shulk trouble. I have even saw a tournament where one of the best Shulks I've seen lost to a Luigi. He is not a character that you should underestimate; once he gets in, which can be very easy to do, he will punish you.
The match-up could change depending on how the balance patch goes. But, as of right now, I think this is a bad match-up for Shulk. Try to outplay Luigi, go on a stage that is really good for Shulk (such as Battlefield), or bring in a pocket character that gives Luigi a tough time (such as Greninja or Little Mac).