Lucas tactics and manuvers discussion thread

[Levitas]

So here's the deal. I see new threads pop up day after day with "new techniques" or "new combos" or whatever. I have no disrespect for that, it's an extremely important process.

However, we could go about it in a more efficient and therefore productive manner. Here's my plan: the new techniques should already be going in the Compendium of Lucas advanced techniques. So we just need a place for all the new manuvers and tactics to go. You know, strategies, game plans, all the kind of stuff will help anyone put advanced techniques into a cohesive, GOOD, and competitive lucas game.

So let's begin with a few things I've found.

1. Rope snake is Lucas's best tool for edgehogging. You can use it to hog when you're hanging, or you can press A to gain invincibility and keep edgehogging during your opponent's Up B.

2. SH PK fire is really good. Especially with the Bstick. If you're not doing anything, start doing Bsticked SH PK Fires at the opponent, it's a good neutral state. Just be careful not to leave yourself open (which shouldn't be hard, it sends you skidding away)

3. Baiting a roll is good. A good first step against an unknown opponent is to try various tricks to get them to roll. Try things like PK Firing, Empty fast falled Short hops, whatever. Once you can get them to roll towards you, hit them on the other side of the roll with Dsmashes. The triple hit will protect you if they manage to sheild it, and it kills, so this is a good idea.

4. A good tactic is to hit a nearby enemy with a Nair, and follow it up with a Utilt. If they are a character that can't cover below them in the air, this is especially effective. You can chain a few of these usually, and airdodges don't escape the multi hit nature of the Nair.

5. Circling PKTs at the edge if the opponent is on the edge is a good way to keep them from being able to do anything. If they roll up, you've got time to hit them, and it's safe to do.

6. Use the Usmash to punish severely lagging opponents. The Ike just Fsmashed and you spot-dodged it? Then Usmash that swordsman to oblivion. He may be heavy, but he's also dead at 90 if you connect with a solid hit.

So that's basically it. Contribute your gameplans, what goes through your head in certain matchups, how you deal with other characters, and critique other's ideas. The point of this thread is to promote thought in the Lucas boards, so that we don't get lazy and stop developing his metagame. Enjoy.

 

[MTFFFG]

What is the rope snake exactly because i don't really get it. Does it involve grabbing the edge with your snake enabling invincibility for a second or two? Because if that is it then you don't really have to answer my first question.


Levitas, i hope your not hating me for asking you so many questions because if it's annoying you, then you can just tell me to stop asking so many. Sorry in advance

 

[Levitas]

lol, don't sweat the questions. The rope snake is Lucas's Zair (hit grab in the air to use), and it makes his snake home in on any nearby edges. Once it finds an edge and latches on, you'll start to hang on the edge by the snake, but you won't be invincible. Press A to retract the snake while hanging and grab the edge directly, which gains ledge invincibility which lasts for about half a second if I recall the time correctly. Note that you're not invincible until you actually grab the edge yourself, the snake provides no invincibility, and I've been spiked out of the retracting animation.

 

[LucNess Monster]

I just wanna touch on a few things from the above list.

1. Fast falling on the pk fire so that the fire doesnt actually come out is a very underrated mind game... After you've hit your opponent a few times with the pk fire they tend to shield or roll out to avoid the incoming attack... then you dash grab, or hit them with an upsmash or downsmash depending on the situation.

2. if you're going to try and hit the opponent with the pk thunder make sure you circle it back around to gain multiple hits instead of letting it tail off and losing the opportunity of adding damage.

 

[MTFFFG]

I didn't know you only gained invincibility from grabbing the ledge unless you do it yourself. Thats something new.

Lucness monster: faking a pk fire is a very powerful mindgame because of how the opponent almost always tries to shield it. Dashing to a grab is essentially unstoppable i think. I will have to train with it more then. In the videos levitas made, he always circled his pkt back around. It does have a greater knockback effect. The only problem though is if they completely dodge the attack. I am going to try to find out how much lag is left after you miss with the attack.

So much learning about lucas, so little time XD

 

[Levitas]

If you miss, or if you hit but the get knocked towards you, you get hit harder by whatever they have, trust me.

Edit: I mean w/ pkt

 

[MTFFFG]

yeah that's what i meant. I just found out that i can short hop auto rar. Before, i did the auto rar and it sent me up like a normal full jump. But if i just tap the b-stick, he short hops the auto rar making it easier to dair or bair (dair is much harder to do in this case but bair is even better). Plus there is no lag whatsoever from this. I don't know if you already knew this but i am surprised and happy when i discovered this.

 

[GofG]

Ahh, I had forgot about auto-RARing. I'll add that to the compendium.

 

[Tyr_03]

Not to sound like a broken record but there the new pk thunder technique needs to be mentioned. I'm having an awful time trying to explain it but it is extremely useful if done correctly. Use up B as you're running off a ledge (before you leave the ledge) to keep Lucas's momentum and hit yourself in diagonal downward directions. This is most useful with specific timing on platform levels because it gives you an incredible number of options of movement including a pk thunder cancel if done from the top platform. Check my thread on it and try it for yourselves. It is far more difficult to perfect than any other brawl tactic that I've tried so far but will be very useful.

 

[Levitas]

I really wish you had a vid of that, it's easy to see how it's done, but really tough to figure out what you accomplish by doing the technique. I'm also having trouble imagining how you're avoiding punishment. Do you have access to any recording/capture devices?

 

[Jihnsius]

Doesn't landing during a PK Fire animation, whether it comes out or not, result in too much lag to dash in and grab if they shield?

 

[Levitas]

I think the idea is just that it'll space you a bit farther away than the opponent expects, and they'll attack the wrong place for massive punishment.

 

[Kaoz]

Two questions, Can anyone tell me any effective ways to approach your enemy that doesn't result in punishalbe lag time? I got the game 3 days ago, and a quick and effctive way to approach your enemy is by doing a sh nair, and also, has anyone of you found any ways to combo the Usmash instead of trying to trick the enemy into a massive lagtime and then use it?

Thanks in advance

 

[Fhed]

Very useful tactics

 

[shae_hawk]

I don't think there is much you can do in the way of combos to get them in the Usmash. Most of Lucas' moves launch the enemy too high and allow them to DI away. I was able to combo both Peach and Ike from N-air> U-tilt> U-smash, but that only worked if my opponet did not DI. After one or two of those, no one you play against will fall for it again. Try it against heavy characters once or twice, its nice for dmg if it comes off.

Also I wanted to add, but I'm sure many are aware of this:
While the enemy is trying to recover from below the ledge if you hit them in the back toward the edge of the stage they will stage spike nearly every time.

 

[MTFFFG]

Kaoz, up smash usually works if the opponent is recovering towards the edge. If they don't grab the edge in time, they will get hit by your up smash. It works 50 percent of the time against computers that love to just grab the edge when they recover. That is still a better percentage then normally trying to up smash your opponent.

I learned that when you fake your pk thunder and move forward, there isn't much lag. It takes the same amount of time as rolling and grabbing after. It is an important mind game only though because the opponent will just roll backwards away from your grab.

 

[Jubeh]

Kaoz, up smash usually works if the opponent is recovering towards the edge. If they don't grab the edge in time, they will get hit by your up smash. It works 50 percent of the time against computers that love to just grab the edge when they recover.

I hate to say this, but don't trust what you can do against computers as gospel. A lot of the time, the cpu does really ******** stuff, and conversely, they'll do things a normal human couldn't. You can't really gauge what's effect against them.

Anyway, can anyone confirm whether d-tilt > fsmash is a true combo or not? I don't have anyone to test this with right now, but I think with the hitstun the way it is, you could probably powershield the fsmash hit.

Also, up taunt is super effective. Spot dodged an Ike fsmash? Up taunt. >_________>

 

[CFaLC]

I don't think anyone mentioned this at all, but I have been using this since I've started b-sticking, and it seems pretty useful so far.

When you dash, you can press the opposite direction on the c-stick (while b-sticking) and you will jump with your back in the direction you're running.

So, for instance...Let's say you're running left at your enemy...You dash at him left, press the c-stick right and it will make you jump with your back to them...you can now use your Bair to hit them. (Kind of a surprise, I suppose?)

Anyway, I find it to be useful. Really good for surprising someone when they are recovering.

 

[Levitas]

Yeah, the auto RAR is good. Also, Dtilt to Dtilt isn't a true combo, let alone Dtilt to Fsmash

It's still useable sometimes, though.

 

[MTFFFG]

CFalC that is auto rar just to point that out and it is a very useful technique indeed. Jubeh, you are right that cpu's are completely than humans. I am just saying that it is easier to up smash your opponent when they are trying to edge recover that is all. Forget the part about the cpu if you want then, it is unimportant.

I forgot to mention that if the opponent is quick such as marth or diddy, then i wouldn't even try up smashing them. It is practically a 0% chance of connecting with them.

 

[Jihnsius]

If an opponent is aiming to grab the edge but is higher than it, they will never just fall to the edge while you're standing next to them, they'll always either attack or airdodge. But then again, it'd take a poor player to try to sweetspot the edge from above it.

 

[CFaLC]

I remember seeing someone mention air dodging into someone and then smashing them. Has anyone tried doing this as Lucas? I know it fakes out some people and catches them a tad off guard...But I'm not sure about using it on faster enemies.

Also, thanks for telling me what that was. Auto RAR...

 

[MTFFFG]

i can't really say if you can air dodge to a smash attack since the air dodge doesn't provide enough invincibilty to land and smash them without at least some sort of defensive measure. I found that at some points during a fight you can short hop and air dodge a little after then grab them. I saw this on another thread and it works pretty quickly.

 

[Tyr_03]

check my updated thread on the pk thunder technique. I still don't have equipment to make a video of it but it's atleast more organized and some of the uses should be more apparant. It seems to be a very difficult technique for people to understand. I'm hoping someone will learn how to do it who is able to make a video to clear things up.

 

[Apollo]

It's been 4 weeks. Any new vids? I'm eager to see how you are progressing.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Tyr, I have a good amount of footage on that PKT technique, and though I don't use it much (because it dangerous as hell lol) I'm looking into ways to implement it into my game. I'd like to use it more to gank the **** out of Snake using BF platforms, because I ****ing hate Snake.

My general match strategy consists of 3 things:
1) N-air to tilt combo and then pressure. N-air to f-tilt is good at low percents because you can follow up with another n-air quickly and pressure, and ppl are like wtf. N-air to u-air is neat too. Let it go if you think they're going to hit you, obviously.
2) PK Fire everyone all the time, try to back them up against the edge of the stage, they suck more when they can't back off.
3) Full Jump is the only way to fly.

My tricks
1) If bob likes to spot-dodge a lot, I'll run behind him and reverse grab. It's hella sexy because the timing is too perfect and he'll mess up his DI and die from an 80% backthrow.
2) When you're in tight fighting for a good hit and want to set up a smash, ALWAYS use downsmash. It's infinitely safer than stick or upsmash because of it's duration and ability to hit spot-dodgers, especially downsmash R.O.B.
3) Drop through platform to kick in face is ****.
4) Edgeguarding a hanging marth trick: Stand back about the distance of a roll, maybe a little closer and downsmash as they rise. A lot of the time you'll get them to drop off and jump up into it, expecting to start a combo with a f-air. Without a jump, you can then edgehog them at almost any percent, like 30.
5) If you want to double jump to avoid an attack while high, use Psi Magnet to cancel the jump and fastfall shortly after to land as fast as possible.
6) In a tight match, if you NEED a KO, the way to get it is to be patient and build damage safely. If the match is close the last thing you want to go around doing is throwing out your upsmash every time they hit 80%; you need them to set themselves up, and bonus points, at 80% an f-tilt has about a 2% chance of leading to a KO, but at 100% plus their recovery is stressed and you can edgeguard much more effectively.

 

[GofG]

PKT is the best edgeguard that we have. It will gimp anyone who has a bad recovery. Anyone who doesn't have a bad recovery will take around 15%. I ONLY go for the bair if I know it will hit, and even then, I find PKT more effect. Simply loop circles in front of them as they're coming back, or loop circles right by the edge.

Stop looking at it from Lucas's perspective. Which one of the following gives you an "oh****" reaction?

A: A tiny blonde haired kid jumps out at you to attempt to spike you. There's a 50% chance he'll land the spike, but if he doesn't, you can still recover.

B: There is a ****ing floating orb that will give you 15% and knock you in a random direction, and you cannot air dodge it because it moves, and it is right at the edge, unavoidable.

I simply find that PKT is better.

 

[Hardcorenesser]

if your opponent gets up off the ledge with an attack (pressing a or b on the ledge) then you can perfect shield -> usmash. it works wonderfully ...though i do suppose it depends on the character recovering... i still have yet to find a character it doesn't work on but i haven't tried it on everyone. also, if you are playing a custom stage that has ice on it, run on the ice then pkt. you will either smash your face into the ice (with bad timing) or fly across the ice in the direction you came (proper timing). and i gotta say my funniest ko was on another lucas. i was playing a random level 9 and i hit him with an fsmash when he had 90 - 100% so he got hit diagonally up and forward. right before he died he used pkt and hit himself instantly and it made him kill himself lol. also, what can a guy do when all the people he finds on random wifi suck, he own level 9's no sweat, my friends all have internet problems (every ******* one), and my bro (my only real challenge) is rarely ever home? and sorry to make this post so long, but do people tend to call other people n00bs when they are intimidated, or what? cuz i don't spam pk fire half as much as i should but my bro calls it a n00b strategy (probably because he can't figure out how to get around it). he thinks his smashes are the n00best in the game cuz once i hit him 6 times in a row with fsmash, i always bait him into usmash, and whenever he tries to shield grab my dsmash he gets zapped. whenever i win, he says it is because lucas has so many glitches. he says lucas is the n00best because he has the most glitches, but i just say a n00b wouldnt know about the so-called "glitches". only someone as boss as me could put them to use that well lol. i don't know why he complains when yoshis chain grab is cheaper then any of lucas' "glitches" (well most of them anyway ).

also, /\ you can airdodge pkt. my bro plays yoshi and he always uses fast falled airdodges to avoid my pkt. then his second jump is more then enough to get him back to the edge. he has super armor throughout his entire second jump so you can't do ****. i get the feeling that half the stuff i learn from the forums doesn't work on yoshi. maybe i am not doing it right, but i seriously doubt anyone here has any experience against yoshi. ya as i explained earlier i can get him good, but he just ends up getting me in the end. idk what it is... i just can't land a ko... so i would really appreciate it if from now on people said who they tested this stuff on. and does yoshi have any sort of natural advantage over Lucas? i have played every character as a level 9 computer but yoshi (and i think maybe marth idk) was the only one that made me lose a stock. and sorry for another question, but should i be ashamed if i get whooped by my bro's ike? i was under the impression that all the swordsman own lucas but he says that's just my excuse for losing. thanks. i will shut up now.

 

[GofG]

Hardcorenesser, the friend finder is a great way to find matches with people who are actually probably decent. http://www.smashboards.com/ff/

 

[Levitas]

on certain stages, you can do a thunderslide to sweetspot (such as the star fox one at certain angles).

Another approach that seems to work well is the fair to ftilt to fair. While it doesn't combo, if they attempt to punish it with a non-jab, you'll almost always get them first.

There was a thread that talked about the edge being the safest place to put a usmash. The edge is also the safest place for a dsmash, whether it's facing in or not. Try charging a dsmash when they're gonna try to sweetspot, if they come in at a horizontal angle, it'll hit them out of it.

Also, dsmashing on the edge of platforms is good for similar reasons.

I'm liking the zap jump recovery more these days. It's something that's really tough to edgeguard, and I've been able to get the PK fire to hit a lot now. Nothing says "don't edgeguard me" like a guy shooting up waaaay out of range while hitting you with a projectile, only to shoot back down for a sweetspot on the edge.

PKT is super-effective on large enemies, but only use it when they're offstage. It can kill brutally.

I'm happy that this thread got revived!

 

[Hardcorenesser]

Hardcorenesser, the friend finder is a great way to find matches with people who are actually probably decent. http://www.smashboards.com/ff/

thanks! though i am having trouble getting it to load... i guess i will just wait longer... *sigh*

ya... i let it "load" all day and it still said loading friend finder... it just said
soundManager.onload() complete
Warning: soundManager.onload() is undefined.
soundManager.initComplete(): calling soundManager.onload()
-- SoundManager 2 loaded (OK) --
(Flash): Enabling polling
soundManager.setPolling(true)
Flash ExternalInterface call (JS -> Flash) succeeded.
(Flash): _externalInterfaceTest()
soundManager._initMovie(): Got EMBED element (created via JS)
soundManager._createMovie(): trying to load soundmanager2.swf
-- SoundManager 2 Version 2.0b.20070415 --

whatever the **** that means. maybe it is my computer...

 

[Deeja]

My main way of getting KO's is a sh nair -> fsmash, if you hit them with the full nair then DI away from them as your landing you can have time to get off an fsmash while they are still falling to the ground. It's pretty easy but very effective and i haven't seen it mentioned once on these boards. Also while they are getting up from the edge you can dash over and usmash as soon as you see them move, it's very hard to avoid and can kill at low %'s.

 

[Trozz]

F-smash is too hard to land for it to be a part of a reliable combo (unless you are against people incapable of evasion).

 

[eSilverh]

One way I approach is to dash at the opponent then sidestep, sliding right past them. If they attacked, they are at your mercy of a quick tilt, nair or uair, if they shield, you can still usually beat them to the punch or escape.

I dash at opponents then b-stick PK fire, or dash and sidestep-slide, or dash and grab, or dash and nair over them trying to hit their head as their shield wears down, or etc etc.

Also, tell me if this is a noob discovery. If you jump and attack at the same time, like really quickly, you get a lot of vertical hitbox frames. For example I could jump, do my fair and fastfall... and the fair would come out at the top of my jump... or if I hit both at the same time I do a full jump with fair hitboxes the whole way up.

feedback please