"Lucas' metagame doesn't have all that many places to go"? I disagree

[Veril]

Tyr_03 did indeed inspire this post. While I generally defer to more experienced, pragmatic players, in this case I cannot agree with that statement. [Edit] He's done a lot of work (auto-canceling and ledge momentum, I hope I didn't miss any). I have benefited from it and am trying use it with the recoil-specials. Ironic, no? Thanks Tyr_03.

When I started my quixotic search for something, some new trick, that could potentially give Lucas an edge. I haven't found anything groundbreaking as a Lucas equivalent of the mortar slide. What I have looked at are all the momentum altering "recoil-specials" variants, jump-canceling specials, ledge-momentum effects, zapjumping and hoping. Autocanceling, buffering moves, ISJR, shield-canceled grabs, and other more general techniques can complement some of the Lucas specific stuff. We've got so much weird sh**; there is no way this should go to waste.

People need to be looking more into Lucas' ATs. I've read through the "comprehensive list" and it isn't at all comprehensive, even if you read through the 11 or so pages of posts. I'm not an incredible player (no real competitive scene where I live/go to school) but I can still mess around with the game physics .

So here's what I'm working with, sort of seeing how things will fit together. If you think something is stupid as all h*** or really sweet, or you find something new, it would help... me at least... to know. My detailed and admittedly disorganized blabbing is being moved to my hard drive and sorted through.

What I'm working with:

"Recoil-Specials": wavelanding (WL), wavebouncing (WB), and wavereversing (WR), w/ PKF, Psi-M, and PKFreeze
"Zap" effects: zapjumping and zaphopping
"chaining": recoil specials can be chained together (ex, wlpkf to magnet pull to wavezap)
"Jump-Canceling": PsiM, PKT, and PKF can JC
"Sheild-Canceling":
Ledge-Momentum effects: PKT, PKFreeze (garbage)
ISJR: All aerials, PKF
Autocanceling: bair and uair
AutoRAR

The idea is that these link together. Recoil-Specials are at the core, "zap" effects can be combined with recoil specials, and multiple recoil specials can be chained together as per the "pull" effect. A chain can end with an autocanceled aerial, or an airdodge, or SJR (pkf). If something ends with an airdodge, you can buffer additional effects. ISJR isn't really something I've looked into that much but... maybe something with wlpkf. AutoRAR is another really interesting effect.

Note, there are multiple possible inputs for all of these, I'll put those in the zapjumping thread. Also my schedule means that this is updated in weird bursts.

Some ideas:

Instant Thundersliding: Jump-Canceled PKT
if you b-stick, run, dash or start a dash and try to pkt without stopping, you jump. So if you JC a PKT in the way you would jump cancel an Usmash, you get around this issue. It also lets you start a thunderslide from a standstill. Pretty flashy if you can buffer it.

Wave-Landing Zapjump: Control stick forward, Jump + b-stick back + b-reverse (sounds easier than it is)
This is the best type of zapjump by far in terms of horizontal distance. I... really like zapjumping. This is probably the best one, unfortunately its tough to pull this off. If you don't b-reverse it isn't the end of the world since you'll just wavezap instead.

Wave-Reversed Zapjumps: Control stick forward, Jump + b-stick forward + b-reverse
Weird.

WR effects?: Wavereversing has some strange properties, at first I thought it just changed a WB into a normal forward version of the special. This is not the case. It seems that the timing for the b-reverse is less rigid, and the momentum you have turning around varies with the timing. Sometimes there is more lift than a normal forward pkf, and a WR can move farther than a normal forward pkf. When I redo my zapjump page I'll have more on this.

Improved Reverse Magnet Pull: b-stick the PsiM away from the direction you travel, then b-reverse, then turnaround mid pull so as to face forward. Control stick is neutral at the start.
Lasts as long as a normal magnet, retains momentum unlike a standard reverse magnet pull.

WB PKF to IMP reversed magnet pull to airdoge to buffered whatever: thoughts... I've used it to get that last f-smash in.

 

[Tyr_03]

The metagame doesn't have anywhere to go because this has all already been discovered. As I said, the rest is application. All you're looking for now is perfecting the application and almost anything you can possibly discuss here has been discussed by myself or others somewhere in the depths of the Lucas boards. I will however be impressed if you come up with something new and applicable. You have my blessing.

 

[Trozz]

Too bad Lucas doesn't have an AT like flying across the stage doing a u-smash or going invisible for as long as you want.

 

[Veril]

The Lucas boards aren't that deep in terms of ATs. I've read through a lot of the threads, probably all the important ones, and never encountered what I just posted or what I'm going to post.

If I look at the application it will be in a novel way (as far as I know at least). What I just put down isn't anywhere on this forumn. If it is, where?

Thanks for the go-ahead though. Maybe I will impress.

 

[Trozz]

Some of the best ATs aren't Lucas specific.
See: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176245

 

[Veril]

Some of the best ATs aren't Lucas specific.
See: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176245

DI is an AT? That thread's pretty cool, and useful, but its not my pet project. Other people can work on that... and I'll read it.

Non-character specific ATs can have Lucas specific application. Jump-canceling, pivots, etc, have applications with Lucas that haven't been covered yet. Situational or not, I want to expand the Lucas ATs.

Look at the Ness AT guide:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169865

Way more comprehensive than what we've got now. And I've read through a lot of the Lucas forum. We should have the equivalent to that guide.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol no offense to EB360 but that guide isn't exactly full of "advanced techniques." Most of them are more like "extremely simple, not necesarily useful, and basic techniques" with a few gems buried in. Maybe useful to some people but a bit overblown if you ask me. That said, Lucas's advanced techniques are highly overrated. You'll get a whoooole lot further knowing the basics. DI, the exact point of autocancelling for all your aerials, foxtrot spacing, hitbox distances, edgeguarding and recovery options and enemy tactics. Learn those first, then figure out if zap jumping and magnet pulling even deserve a place in your gameplay.

 

[Veril]

Lucas's advanced techniques are highly overrated. You'll get a whoooole lot further knowing the basics. DI, the exact point of autocancelling for all your aerials, foxtrot spacing, hitbox distances, edgeguarding and recovery options and enemy tactics.

I agree. Still, I enjoy this. Its a great mental exercise, and maybe players will benefit from it. Also, it looks really cool.

I am trying to get some of the basics down (I've got pretty good DI), so I'm not really qualified to write about those. On the other hand, I can tell people something I do know that they may not. Especially if they don't read everything on smashboards. What techniques are useful... can't find that out if I don't know what they are.

As you could probably guess, I wavezap all the time. It definitely has a place in my game.