Lucario vs. Toon Link (21) Export

[phi1ny3]

Toon Link

​

Matchup:

50:50

General info:

-I think the matchup is somewhat even. Depending on how the TL plays it could range from 55:45 to 45:55.

Bombs: It can absorb pretty much every move you throw at it and can limit approaches. It can be used to start combos and lead into an uair finisher. Not a lot of knockback, but used mostly to do damage, to distract opponents, and just makes it dangerous to attack TL while he is holding one. There can be two out at a time. Definitely the best out of all of TL's projectiles.

Arrow: They have okay priority but can be canceled by many moves, including Lucario's fair, ftilt, Aura Sphere, etc. Mostly used to annoy and distract. Retreating arrows can be decently spammed. Probably the least used out of all the projectiles. Can be charged.

Boomerang: It's a boomerang. You throw it, and it comes back. It's almost as big as TL...anyways, it's basically a hitbox that leaves TL's body and eventually returns to him unless it is canceled/reflected. So if you airdodge/spotdodge it, be prepared for its return trip! Aura Sphere can cancel and eventually override it, and I'm sure other moves can too. It has okay knockback but returning ones can lead into combos.

What to avoid:

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Zair. This is probably the number one thing people will have trouble dealing with. Comes out fast, can be done out of his airdodge, autocancels upon landing, can lead into combos/grabs, can be used for retreating, can be used for spacing, can be used to annoy...I could go on forever. It's definitely a versatile move overall. And the worst part is, our fair can never challenge it. If you want to be successful in this matchup, you must learn how to space and get around this move. Even if you powershield it, you must react fast since the move autocancels upon landing. Also, watch out for a TL tethered to the edge. He can re-tether multiple times and force Lucario to land on the stage.

-Bombs. This is yet another obstacle most players will have trouble getting past. You can't attack bombs or they might blow up. They can be used to block Aura Sphere. They can be used for shield pressure and can lead into combos, such as bomb thrown down->uair. Learn to z-catch them or avoid them altogether.

-Arrows. Yes, a third spammable move! Arrows can be used to annoy and distract from a far distance. They have a decent amount of hitstun. Fortunately, you can cancel them with fair and Aura Sphere! From my experience, TLs don't use this move very much, but it's still something to watch out for.

-Boomerang. Holy ****, are you kidding me? Another spam move?! Boomerangs are meant for pressure and to annoy. They don't have a lot of knockback, but they can setup into combos. Can be canceled by fair, Aura Sphere, etc. Remember, it will always return to TL, so if it misses you the first time, it might hit you on the returning trip...

-Usmash. This is one of TL's very few reliable kill moves. Comes out pretty fast, requires hitting with the sweetspot. Getting hit with the "sour" back part means far less knockback. Once you get towards higher percents, be wary of this move.

-Dsmash. If you see a TL waiting on a slope, please do not approach blindly. Doing so will get you killed at near 0 percents.

-Dair. This move can spike with the initial frames after it comes out. Otherwise, TL will bounce off of you and can hit you twice if he follows your DI. Most TLs will not try to spike you with this move unless they are sure it will hit, because missing results in instant death due to the stall then fall attribute. Basically one giant hitbox below him until he either hits the ground or you/your shield/something. You can challenge it with uair, but you must space the aura burst on uair it perfectly.

-Uair. Another one of TL's main kill moves. Essentially a sex kick that sends you up and has pretty good knockback. Since Toon Link has pretty decent vertical jumps, he can reach far into the sky with this move. It can outlast pretty much everyone's airdodge, so don't airdodge if you see a TL below you. You can challenge it with dair if you feel risky. Also, you can use Lucario's dair to stall yourself so that you don't fall into the uair.

-Bair. A good damage racker and self-comboing move, if the TL follows your DI. If you don't have your double jump, prepare to take lots of damage...

-Nair. A good get-away-from-me aerial. Comes out pretty fast and hits on both sides of TL but not simultaneously.

-Spotdodge. It's pretty amazing. If a TL spotdodges and you miss with your attack, expect a punish...

-Grounded UpB. Most TLs don't do this anymore, because you can SDI out and punish almost immediately. Jerm and Quivo learned the hard way by playing me...but you'll still see some TLs do it occasionally OOS.

-Grab. It has deceptive range. Have someone purposely miss with it and notice the length of the hookshot. Then have someone grab you with it at its absolute maximum range. Yeah, makes no sense. Fortunately, TLs know not to grab unless they can combo into it. A missed grab equals a free punish *coughFSMASHcough*.

Also, TL uair is so mean, I hate whenever they do get the chance to use it, the lingering secondary hitbox is still really ridiculously killable.

A grounded Up B is usually to get the opponent of your back or it will be used to when toonlinks get up instead of using a get up attack after something like Snake/ GnWs down throw (Not GnW so much since most people can tech it fairly easy now)

For lucarios, toonlinks might use Up B as an attempt to punish rolls and what not.

Lucario mains might already know this but our bombs will stop a fully charged Aurua Sphere (or whatever the move is called).

I know nothing about fighting Pits, Toon Link on the other hand I do have some knowledge about.

Toon Link's main killer on the ground is Usmash. It is easier to approach a TL using Zair for spacing, he doesn't have the range that Samus or Link's Zair have that can keep them safer. Toon Link's will most likely spam Boomerang and bombs, arrows aren't common but are used as a wall to hold back approaches.

Not much else I can say, RT already covered the whole thing.

Oh, I guess I'll add that TL's zair->grab works pretty well if you're not prepared for it.

Did we mention Zair-Usmash as well?

How to win:

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-With his spam game and overall ability to play keep away, this match is about patience. TL is a momentum character. Getting frustrated will lead to a mistake, and this will get you killed. Don't spam fsmash, because a TL can just jump and zair you. Aura Sphere can be used to disrupt a TL's momentum for a small bit, but don't rely on it. Once you get an Aura boost, the matchup should be more manageable.

Helpful tips:

Before I start, I want to state that almost ALL TLs have different playstyles. You can compare all of the notable ones, like Chip, Hyro, Jerm, Quivo, Santi, etc. and they all play differently. Therefore, it is important to understand that your TL encounters may vary from what you will read. I've only managed to play Jerm and Quivo (and Santi for like one match).

Rolling towards the zair really helps the first few times. It messes with TL's spacing and you can punish it pretty well.

TL can catch on though and just bair after he zairs, so mix it up.

RT is the only person I can't up B against much since he knows how to SDI. It works against almost everyone else

it's..kinda easy to SDI toon's uB. Just play this game expecting to SDI every multihit move in this game and counter with dairs.

AKA don't worry about TL upB on the ground, it's pretty punishable anyways, but something to look out for occasionally depending on which TL you play.









Stages:

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Starter. Avoid FD because it encourages TL's hit-and-run game. Yoshi's is a good choice, TLs tend to hate this stage. I would avoid PS1 because of its low ceiling.
-Counterpick. Anything with a high ceiling would be good against a TL because of his reliance on vertical kills. Jungle Japes and Pictochat are the best choices. Frigate is also an okay choice because of the high ceiling and the lack of an edge on the right side. Definitely avoid small stages with low vertical ceilings, like Halberd, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, etc.

I might add stuff if I feel it is necessary.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

 

[phi1ny3]

Not much said in terms of MU numbers, but I'm a firm believer that it's a very even MU.

 

[RT]

Oh, I guess I'll add that TL's zair->grab works pretty well if you're not prepared for it.

 

[D. Disciple]

Did we mention Zair-Usmash as well?

 

[F1ZZ]

Did we mention Zair-Usmash as well?

Are we all forgetting about Zair- Fsmash? So many options out of Zair that it saddens me.

 

[D. Disciple]

We can SDI out of the first hit of fsmash into shield or spot dodge, or just avoid the 2nd part of the fsmash. So it's all g

 

[phi1ny3]

fsmash is really easy to DI, just slam up on the control stick and you've got a free dair or even possibly a smash if you've landed behind him.

 

[G-Beast]

my vid vs Chef in the archive might prove helpful in fighting toon link

 

[Aurasmash14]

fsmash is really easy to DI, just slam up on the control stick and you've got a free dair or even possibly a smash if you've landed behind him.

a smash would be too slow. Tink might have done Dsmash by then.

 

[phi1ny3]

I was afraid so, but I'm sure in my assumption that once you DI it it's pretty punishable.

 

[Alus]

Dsmash is possible maybe...

Dunno I have always just Daird or grabbed a TL.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I'll put up my vids of me vs. Marronator soon