low level question on command inputs

[PChron]

I'm hoping some people with experience in fighting games with extensive support for command inputs can provide some additional insight on how this works in other games.

Basically, my thought is that smash checks every frame for inputs. Thus, the fastest you can possibly pull off a true shoryuken is three frames.
However, there is also the possibility that smash requires a window of a few frames before you can enter subsequent command inputs. I doubt that is the case, but it certainly is possible. This would make the minimum number of frames required to input a move greater.
There is also the possibility that smash checks multiple times a frame for input. Based on my experience programming and especially considering how smash has previously worked (even in just this game alone - if what Sakurai has said about not being able to run nana on the 3DS is true), I highly doubt that this is the case.
So, what is the minimum number of frames required to input a Shoryuken?
Another interesting question is what kind of window is allowed; what is the maximum number of frames?

Also, I would like to remind everybody that there is a gap between your skill and Ryu's frame data. Unless you can pull off a frame perfect shoryuken, up smash is going to be a much better option.

 

[PapaJ]

I'm hoping some people with experience in fighting games with extensive support for command inputs can provide some additional insight on how this works in other games.

Basically, my thought is that smash checks every frame for inputs. Thus, the fastest you can possibly pull off a true shoryuken is three frames.
However, there is also the possibility that smash requires a window of a few frames before you can enter subsequent command inputs. I doubt that is the case, but it certainly is possible. This would make the minimum number of frames required to input a move greater.
There is also the possibility that smash checks multiple times a frame for input. Based on my experience programming and especially considering how smash has previously worked (even in just this game alone - if what Sakurai has said about not being able to run nana on the 3DS is true), I highly doubt that this is the case.
So, what is the minimum number of frames required to input a Shoryuken?
Another interesting question is what kind of window is allowed; what is the maximum number of frames?

Also, I would like to remind everybody that there is a gap between your skill and Ryu's frame data. Unless you can pull off a frame perfect shoryuken, up smash is going to be a much better option.

Yes every game ever checks for inputs on every frame. Otherwise there would be a slight delay in input.

yes the quickest you could preform it is 3 frames, if you were insanely fast, usually for inputs like these there is an internal timer. So if a hadoken motion would be Down = yes, Downforward = yes, and forward = yes. Each of these steps updates the timer regularly so if you wait a couple of frames it's not a big deal however that doesn't make the command inputs slower it just provides leniency.

Also no most of Ryu's combo starters combo well into T.SRK on it's own or you can use Usmash to avoid staling. Most of the time T.SRK is better, comes out on the 6th frame you preform the inputs vs the 10th frame of Usmash. Not to mention it since it is a special move it can combo from weak Utilt, Strong Utilt, Weak Dtilt, Strong Dtilt, Jab 1. In these cases the opponent has to be at a particular percent to land a Usmash or they can jump away or hit you out of it. Usmash is only better after a sourspot Fair since the timing/position can mean SRK can miss.

Ultimately in 9/10 cases T.SRK is better then Usmash simply due to it's Iframes, Startup, Damage, KB and since it's a special move can be be a combo ender.

 

[PChron]

Yes every game ever checks for inputs on every frame. Otherwise there would be a slight delay in input.

yes the quickest you could preform it is 3 frames, if you were insanely fast, usually for inputs like these there is an internal timer. So if a hadoken motion would be Down = yes, Downforward = yes, and forward = yes. Each of these steps updates the timer regularly so if you wait a couple of frames it's not a big deal however that doesn't make the command inputs slower it just provides leniency.

Also no most of Ryu's combo starters combo well into T.SRK on it's own or you can use Usmash to avoid staling. Most of the time T.SRK is better, comes out on the 6th frame you preform the inputs vs the 10th frame of Usmash. Not to mention it since it is a special move it can combo from weak Utilt, Strong Utilt, Weak Dtilt, Strong Dtilt, Jab 1. In these cases the opponent has to be at a particular percent to land a Usmash or they can jump away or hit you out of it. Usmash is only better after a sourspot Fair since the timing/position can mean SRK can miss.

Ultimately in 9/10 cases T.SRK is better then Usmash simply due to it's Iframes, Startup, Damage, KB and since it's a special move can be be a combo ender.

But that's not correct. The number of frames required to perform a T.SRK, measured from the exact moment you want to perform the move, is 9+ frames, the number being 9 ideally and increasing inversely with how good you are at performing that move.
If you can perform a frame perfect T.SRK, then yes, it is always better than an up smash. But as you said, you have to be insanely fast, and it's doubtful anyone will be that good.
So my point is, if you're just trying to respond as quickly as possible, up smash is a better option most of the time. I doubt it's easy to even get a 10 frame T.SRK either, more than likely the fastest any of us will ever be able to do is 15 frame.
And I don't disagree that it has better combo potential. But there are many cases where the frame data is deceiving.

 

[PapaJ]

But that's not correct. The number of frames required to perform a T.SRK, measured from the exact moment you want to perform the move, is 9+ frames, the number being 9 ideally and increasing inversely with how good you are at performing that move.
If you can perform a frame perfect T.SRK, then yes, it is always better than an up smash. But as you said, you have to be insanely fast, and it's doubtful anyone will be that good.
So my point is, if you're just trying to respond as quickly as possible, up smash is a better option most of the time. I doubt it's easy to even get a 10 frame T.SRK either, more than likely the fastest any of us will ever be able to do is 15 frame.
And I don't disagree that it has better combo potential. But there are many cases where the frame data is deceiving.

I mean this is purely a case where you're reading far too much into Frame Data. Every time Ive wanted a T.SRK to come out and combo it does. Whereas with Usmash it's been hit or miss. On top of that since you are usually moving towards your opponent that simplifies the motion to a simple QCF making it faster.

You can argue all you want but the fact is because of the Iframes on T.SRK and just how the shortcuts for inputs work people always have better chances of landing a T.SRK VS Usmash, simply just because of having those Iframes, makes T.SRK a better tool. If you really wanted to you can before the T.SRK during any animation or even during running to get a frame perfect T.SRK.

Also where are you getting this 9 frames of input? Is that just an arbitrary number? If this data is tested your statement invalidates your question "So, what is the minimum number of frames required to input a Shoryuken?". So did you actually test this or this a number your throwing out?

Finally if you're really pushing that U smash is a faster option why not say that for Dsmash? It comes out on the 5th Frame meaning that would be the quickest punish. Unless you're trying to compare T.SRK and Usmash because they control vertical movement? Then why not say Strong Utilt? It comes out on the 7th frame and active for 3 frames. While it's one less then Usmash it has a much larger disjoint and the damage difference can be subverted because Weak Utilt > Strong U tilt is a combo, where U smash only works at certain percents. I honestly don't know why you are pushing for Usmash to replace T.SRK as a "faster and reliable move".

Finally I can make the same argument for any Smash attack. You till need to slam the Analog stick in the direction you want which yeah isn't as long as a command input but it's not as fast as a simple button press either. Even if you use C-stick Smash you still need to count how long it takes you get the analog in the right position. Slightly making it longer then you think, lessening the gap between Usmash and T.SRK.