Losing to people that don't even play Sm4sh?

[BlueDaruma888]

So I recently went to a friend's house where I brought my Wii U/ Sm4sh along for the ride. The people that I played with that night had little to no previous exposure to Sm4sh. However, while I dominated the first couple of games, it wasn't long until I found that I was losing fairly consistently against some of these guys.

Don't get me wrong; I had a blast that night. My friends were all delighted to play, people were constantly surprised when they realized certain characters were playable, and I apparently reignited the flame of an ex-competitive Melee player who hadn't touched a Smash Bros game in years.

I obviously don't claim to be the best Sm4sher out there, nor did I think that I was entitled to be "better" than everybody else at the party, but having played the game for a couple of months already, it was definitely a surprise to be beaten (we mainly did 1v1 matches on tournament legal stages) by someone with little to no experience. A bit of salt ensued, sure, but I was honestly more impressed and curious over my losses. A couple of the guys who won fairly consistently do play quite a bit of traditional fighting games, so perhaps that could've translated to Sm4sh? Given where I live, I'm pretty limited to only fighting CPUs, and almost never go on For Glory due to consistent input lag, so perhaps that could be an issue? Maybe I just need to git gud? Any thoughts, and have you guys ever had similar experiences?

 

[IsmaR]

Lots of elements translate to both Smash and other fighting games. If they played other traditional fighting games and have a decent-to-good understanding of all of the concepts in particular (how footsies/neutral work, good spacing and zoning, etc.), it shouldn't be that surprising they weren't losing after a few matches. Smash is easy to pick up, but difficult to master.

While playing with real people is obviously better than just CPUs, online isn't necessarily the better alternative.(FG actually gives people a lot of bad habits). Your best bet would be to learn from others (both asking the people you play in person and looking up things from other players online)

 

[BlueDaruma888]

Lots of elements translate to both Smash and other fighting games. If they played other traditional fighting games and have a decent-to-good understanding of all of the concepts in particular (how footsies/neutral work, good spacing and zoning, etc.), it shouldn't be that surprising they weren't losing after a few matches. Smash is easy to pick up, but difficult to master.

While playing with real people is obviously better than just CPUs, online isn't necessarily the better alternative.(FG actually gives people a lot of bad habits). Your best bet would be to learn from others (both asking the people you play in person and looking up things from other players online)

Ahhh... I figured as much... two of these friends in particular are Street Fighter fanatics and are always discussing stuff together. I joke with them and say that they have "fighting game instincts", although they constantly deny it.

And that's definitely true; playing solely against CPUs have molded me into a defensive, reactionary fighter more than anything else, and I don't have a ton of experience when it comes to reading and baiting opponents (and I play Shulk for godssake...) so I can see how I may be lacking in that field. Guess I'll need to find a training buddy soon...

 

[TurboPikachu]

I personally feel it's because Smash 4 is far more balanced than 64, Melee, and Brawl. I've found that I consistently lose to inexperienced players very consistently in Smash 4; far more than I did in 64, Melee and Brawl. This is partially due to the fact that broken techniques from 64 (such as Yoshi's and Ness' jump-cancelled combos), Melee's broken techniques (wavedashing and L-cancelling, Ice Climbers' infinite), and Brawl's broken techniques (chaingrabs/infinites, Pikachu's quick-attack cancel) are all absent in Smash 4. It is an incredibly-balanced game now with extremely few advantageous "glitches".

In Brawl, I made extensive use of Pikachu's chaingrabs and quick-attack cancelling to win against everyone around me, and even get somewhere at MLG Raleigh 2010. However, Pikachu in Smash 4, despite being top 5 in the game's metagame, is a character who does NOT come anywhere close to guaranteeing me a win. Without the broken techniques, in addition to certain moves having less knockback and increased startup lag, I've found that Pikachu, despite being a top-tier character, is no longer a character I perform well with. The same goes for Kirby, who had outrageous range on all of his tilts and smashes in Brawl, even having a small combo at low percents. In Smash 4, he lacks the combo potential from Brawl, and the hitboxes for his limbs are horrifically shortened, so much so that F-tilt isn't even long enough to punish someone after I shield any smash attack (something once possible in 64 and Brawl)

I have had luck in Smash 4, however. Believe it or not, dabbling with a bottom-tier character through the games has benefited me greatly. While I mained Pikachu and Kirby in 64, Melee, and Brawl, I've always held onto Jigglypuff as a secondary. Despite her not being useful to me in 64, Melee, and especially in Brawl... I have been securing FAR more victories as Jigglypuff in Smash 4 than I have as Pikachu, Kirby, or Mario. I attribute this not to skill, broken mechanics, or Jigglypuff's raw capability as a fighter, but rather attribute this to the vast majority of people being used to fighting grounded characters, not aerial characters.

My point here is, using (and practicing religiously as) a character with big niches that can shut people down (like Game & Watch, Jigglypuff, Shulk, and arguably Beyonetta) have an effect on performance in Smash 4. But that is besides the primary point that you will -always- need to out-think your opponent. You could play as Sheik and lose to Zelda every time if that Zelda player is at your skill level and you're not playing Smash seriously like mental chess.
I've found that I'm not particularly awesome at reading a skilled opponent, and often rely on abusing the tactics in 64/Melee/Brawl that I mentioned in order to win. But in Smash 4, despite not having such tactics at my disposal, I can still catch many off-guard with my Jigglypuff and well-practiced off-stage Wall-of-Pain fAir string.

If you are having immense trouble trying to be skilled enough to read your opponent's actions, then do try to practice a character that has a game-changing niche.
Examples:
Cloud, with his specials after charging Limit Break
Jigglypuff, with combos into Rest (a move that can K.O from bottom stage as early as 40%)
Shulk, with his ability to rack insane damage with Buster Monado Art, then net early K.Os from smash attacks with the Smash Monado Art
Game & Watch, with his high-risk, high-reward "Judgment" move. Landing a 9 can net a KO as early as 20. Alternatively, you can greatly punish characters with projectiles by absorbing projectiles with the bucket, landing a fully-charged spill K.Oing at 0% in many scenarios
Little Mac, who has super-armor on many moves, and has the K.O punch, which, when available, can K.O at 40% when connected

Considering picking up these characters and trying to master their niche features can possibly improve your chances of victory. Jigglypuff, while essentially DEAD-LAST in this game's tier-list, has greatly improved my overall performance in Super Smash Bros. 4.

 

[zzmorg82]

What characters were they using?

 

[FamilyTeam]

There's also the problem that new players often play in extremely weird ways with uncommon characters. It's not exactly a surprise if they can win a match or two purely by luck.

 

[BlueDaruma888]

What characters were they using?

There was quite a bit of variety that night because they were mainly trying out characters and seeing who they liked the best, but in terms of specific people/ characters that I lost a lot to:

- Street Fighter Friend A: , and every once in a while
- Street Fighter Friend B: Was really excited to see that Megaman was in the game, but after having some trouble with him, found a bit more comfort in
Of course, both of them tried , but weren't nearly as successful

- Ex-competitive melee friend: Was a main that ended up really enjoying
- Not too sure about background; followed, but never played Sm4sh: and to a degree

 

[BlueDaruma888]

There's also the problem that new players often play in extremely weird ways with uncommon characters. It's not exactly a surprise if they can win a match or two purely by luck.

There were definitely a few things that I saw that night that I never would have thought about otherwise, but I think some of their wins weren't solely based on luck. While not exactly an uncommon character, one of these friends that ended up playing a lot of would start throwing out random burst grenades even when I was on the stage. He said that he was trying to get me to either jump and intercept me in the air, or block and run up and grab me. Not too into the competitive scene, but I've only ever seen Shiek's using burst grenades as an edge guarding mechanic.

One of the players did 9 me twice in the same game though, the second of which won him the match. And I had been doing fairly well too...

I personally feel it's because Smash 4 is far more balanced than 64, Melee, and Brawl. I've found that I consistently lose to inexperienced players very consistently in Smash 4; far more than I did in 64, Melee and Brawl. This is partially due to the fact that broken techniques from 64 (such as Yoshi's and Ness' jump-cancelled combos), Melee's broken techniques (wavedashing and L-cancelling, Ice Climbers' infinite), and Brawl's broken techniques (chaingrabs/infinites, Pikachu's quick-attack cancel) are all absent in Smash 4. It is an incredibly-balanced game now with extremely few advantageous "glitches".

In Brawl, I made extensive use of Pikachu's chaingrabs and quick-attack cancelling to win against everyone around me, and even get somewhere at MLG Raleigh 2010. However, Pikachu in Smash 4, despite being top 5 in the game's metagame, is a character who does NOT come anywhere close to guaranteeing me a win. Without the broken techniques, in addition to certain moves having less knockback and increased startup lag, I've found that Pikachu, despite being a top-tier character, is no longer a character I perform well with. The same goes for Kirby, who had outrageous range on all of his tilts and smashes in Brawl, even having a small combo at low percents. In Smash 4, he lacks the combo potential from Brawl, and the hitboxes for his limbs are horrifically shortened, so much so that F-tilt isn't even long enough to punish someone after I shield any smash attack (something once possible in 64 and Brawl)

I have had luck in Smash 4, however. Believe it or not, dabbling with a bottom-tier character through the games has benefited me greatly. While I mained Pikachu and Kirby in 64, Melee, and Brawl, I've always held onto Jigglypuff as a secondary. Despite her not being useful to me in 64, Melee, and especially in Brawl... I have been securing FAR more victories as Jigglypuff in Smash 4 than I have as Pikachu, Kirby, or Mario. I attribute this not to skill, broken mechanics, or Jigglypuff's raw capability as a fighter, but rather attribute this to the vast majority of people being used to fighting grounded characters, not aerial characters.

My point here is, using (and practicing religiously as) a character with big niches that can shut people down (like Game & Watch, Jigglypuff, Shulk, and arguably Beyonetta) have an effect on performance in Smash 4. But that is besides the primary point that you will -always- need to out-think your opponent. You could play as Sheik and lose to Zelda every time if that Zelda player is at your skill level and you're not playing Smash seriously like mental chess.
I've found that I'm not particularly awesome at reading a skilled opponent, and often rely on abusing the tactics in 64/Melee/Brawl that I mentioned in order to win. But in Smash 4, despite not having such tactics at my disposal, I can still catch many off-guard with my Jigglypuff and well-practiced off-stage Wall-of-Pain fAir string.

If you are having immense trouble trying to be skilled enough to read your opponent's actions, then do try to practice a character that has a game-changing niche.
Examples:
Cloud, with his specials after charging Limit Break
Jigglypuff, with combos into Rest (a move that can K.O from bottom stage as early as 40%)
Shulk, with his ability to rack insane damage with Buster Monado Art, then net early K.Os from smash attacks with the Smash Monado Art
Game & Watch, with his high-risk, high-reward "Judgment" move. Landing a 9 can net a KO as early as 20. Alternatively, you can greatly punish characters with projectiles by absorbing projectiles with the bucket, landing a fully-charged spill K.Oing at 0% in many scenarios
Little Mac, who has super-armor on many moves, and has the K.O punch, which, when available, can K.O at 40% when connected

Considering picking up these characters and trying to master their niche features can possibly improve your chances of victory. Jigglypuff, while essentially DEAD-LAST in this game's tier-list, has greatly improved my overall performance in Super Smash Bros. 4.

That's an interesting thought! I personally still think it'd be a good idea for me to try and improve my reading tactics, as I can't always rely on niches, but understanding everything your character can do and using them to your advantage can definitely be beneficial. Thankfully, I already main Shulk and Cloud, so I guess I'll keep chugging away at these two!

 

[zzmorg82]

There was quite a bit of variety that night because they were mainly trying out characters and seeing who they liked the best, but in terms of specific people/ characters that I lost a lot to:

- Street Fighter Friend A: , and every once in a while
- Street Fighter Friend B: Was really excited to see that Megaman was in the game, but after having some trouble with him, found a bit more comfort in
Of course, both of them tried , but weren't nearly as successful

- Ex-competitive melee friend: Was a main that ended up really enjoying
- Not too sure about background; followed, but never played Sm4sh: and to a degree

Sorry for the long reply back. The reason I asked what character they used is because some of them can be considered as "noob friendly." From the list you provided, the only one I see that is noob friendly is Little Mac due to having super armor on his moves. Like FamilyTeam said above, many new players do play unorthodox and throw out punishable moves at the wrong times. Figure out their habits, sit back, and punish them as needed, but the main thing is that you guys have fun playing the game.

 

[BlueDaruma888]

Sorry for the long reply back. The reason I asked what character they used is because some of them can be considered as "noob friendly." From the list you provided, the only one I see that is noob friendly is Little Mac due to having super armor on his moves. Like FamilyTeam said above, many new players do play unorthodox and throw out punishable moves at the wrong times. Figure out their habits, sit back, and punish them as needed, but the main thing is that you guys have fun playing the game.

Haha. No worries, and thanks for the reply

But yeah. I think it really comes down to keeping an eye on your opponent/ learning match ups, and punish repeated actions. Again, I'm not the best at reading/ punishing (there was a looooot of rolling going on that night that in hindsight, I really should've taken advantage of) but I think it'll prove to be a vital skill to learn if I want to improve myself/ get that edge over people who have just picked up the game and are starting to master the basics.