Losing Hover without using it?

[DrinkingFood]

Not sure if this should be posted in bug reporting or if it just constitutes an oversight. I hope it isn't intentional :/
If MewTwo double jumps before grabbing the edge (without hovering at all anywhere in there), he can't hover from the edge, and won't be able to until he touches the ground again- he essentially loses it on edge grab. He gets his double jump refreshed just fine, but he gets shorted a hover without ever having used it. I know it's intentional that edge grabbing doesn't refresh hover after it's been used, and that this is to combat stalling (which I disagree but that is beside the point), but this loss of hover without ever using it, in a situation where it feels like it should be refreshed for one use along with the infinitely refreshable double jump, is just kinda inconsistent and awkward. I would guess this is a result of the mechanic that keeps track of whether he's used his DJ or hover and prevents him from using the other before he lands combined with only his DJ "counter" or w/e it's called is refreshed on edge grab without taking the one-hover-per-air/edge-time.

 

[U-Throw]

Well, here's my view. One, it's a bug, or two, they simply did it to prevent ledge stalling, which is as annoying as crap. I don't know if you play competitively, but I'm sure they have rules against it. I myself don't play competitively, although I do aspire to, and I can tell you, I've set countless rules on ledge stalling. It's freaking ridiculous and I hate it.

 

[McNinja]

I'm pretty sure Mewtwo can still ledge stall if you double jump off the ledge and teleport back on repeatedly really fast. It was in Melee, too.

 

[gnosis]

Somewhat similar bug, if you teleport off the spawn platform after dying you won't have your double jump or hover. You can dj/hover and then teleport, but in order to dj/hover after teleport you have to touch the ground first. I tested this with tap jump turned off to make sure I wasn't accidentally jumping.

edit: You also don't get a double jump if you teleport after letting go of the edge and not landing or regrabbing the ledge first.

Not sure if either of these are bugs or intentional.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm pretty sure Mewtwo can still ledge stall if you double jump off the ledge and teleport back on repeatedly really fast. It was in Melee, too.

Indeed, he can. It's damn hard, though.

 

[gnosis]

Indeed, he can. It's damn hard, though.

Use a halfcircle motion. Press back away from the ledge to drop, rotate through up and towards the stage, hitting b when your stick is at up and towards. I play with tap jump off so I don't even jump here and you pretty much instantly regrab the ledge.

 

[MetaKnight0]

on edge

down > dj > tp down

rinse and repeat

if done properly you have near invulnerability and you can go between tp up forward for stages with platforms like battlefield or YS or you can wait a bit longer on the dj and tp forward or you can do a small delayed djc and do uair or fair or wd back on. hover is too slow from the edge to be useful you're asking for a fox shinespike or something.

i dont recommend down back > dj back > tp downforward because there'sthis glitch where mewtwo doesnt hit the edge and doesnt hit the stage so he resets himself just above the edge and starts falling. he gets his dj and hover back if this happens but if you dont expect this to happen (which is pretty often because its really hard to get the spacing right) you'll kind of just flop around after. if you could perfect this then you could be the next Iori or Taj and terrorize Arizona.

 

[gnosis]

You don't have to double jump at all. You can stall like Fox's forward-b stall with near instant regrabs and you can still angle it up to go to a platform/onto the stage into whatever.

 

[DrinkingFood]

PMBR's motto
if it's broken don't fix it... unless we broke it then nerf that ****
seriously how is up-b stall not a valid counter argument against hover not refreshing on ledge even after multiple uses
he can already do full invincibility like shiek can, and then teleport on stage safely, which shiek can't even do

but beside all that i still wanna know if this hover loss is an oversight or not

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

PMBR's motto
if it's broken don't fix it... unless we broke it then nerf that ****
seriously how is up-b stall not a valid counter argument against hover not refreshing on ledge even after multiple uses
he can already do full invincibility like shiek can, and then teleport on stage safely, which shiek can't even do

but beside all that i still wanna know if this hover loss is an oversight or not

I don't think it's an oversight. I mean it would be nice to hover off ledge once at any point in time without going back onstage. But that would make Mewtwo's edgeguarding even better when his edgeguard is already amazing. It might be asking for a little too much even though I love the idea.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I mean it would be nice to hover off ledge once at any point in time without going back onstage.

but that's the thing, you can already do that. the issue is that it has some silly limitation where you can't do that if you double jumped just before grabbing the edge. wavedashing to the edge, single jumping then grabbing the edge, teleporting to the edge, you can hover fine after all those. But god forbid we double jump to the edge and then try to hover...

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

but that's the thing, you can already do that. the issue is that it has some silly limitation where you can't do that if you double jumped just before grabbing the edge. wavedashing to the edge, single jumping then grabbing the edge, teleporting to the edge, you can hover fine after all those. But god forbid we double jump to the edge and then try to hover...

Wait so I can Teleport > Ledgegrab > Jump out > Attack > Teleport back > Ledgegrab > Hover?

 

[gnosis]

No, once you've used double jump you have to land to get your hover back. Assuming that's what you meant by 'jump out > attack".

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

No, once you've used double jump you have to land to get your hover back. Assuming that's what you meant by 'jump out > attack".

I thought so. I was thinking DrinkingFood meant that was possible.

 

[Smo]

Way I see it is DJ exhausts hover, and, like with Peach's float, hover is not refreshed just by grabbing the edge.

It's annoying, but it's no big deal, just means you gotta touch ground!

 

[DrinkingFood]

Except Peach doesn't lose her float when she double jumps. If she double jumps to the edge, she can both float and double jump from dropping off it, followed by the other which she hasn't used. Obviously M2 can't do both in a row, but he should at least have the option to choose once he gets to the ledge. And he can in every case... except double jumping to the ledge. Why such a weird distinction? I'm not asking for the ledge to refresh his hover here, just to keep the choice (between double jump and hover) he has once per air time even for when he grabs the ledge after his DJ.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

The hover is less a recovery option, and more of a mobile assault option, so it is meant for edgeguarding or above stage aerial pursuit. Peach's float complements her already spectacular horizontal recovery and gives her an option of attack that she did not have before. M2's hover has a much shorter deration than Peach's because it is built toward diversifying his attacks, since that is his playstyle. Mewtwo already has a pretty decent recovery, to give him the option of using it twice before landing would be a little overpowering for a character who already has a good ledge game, as well as a good build in general.

 

[DrinkingFood]

what on earth does that have to do with anything
we aren't talking about recovery here
if M2 has grabbed the edge (which makes him lose hover if has DJ'd), he has already essentially recovered, especially given how many options he has from the ledge with teleport.
And recovering isn't the only time you might grab the edge after a double jump.
This is just about consistency in how the character works, that's all. Not about buffing him, not about a better recovery or edge guarding ability.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

I know what you were talking about, you were talking about how you could use Peach's float after grabbing the ledge, and asked why you weren't able to with M2. What difference would it make anyway? M2 already has a rising aerial cancel with his double jump to get back on the stage from the ledge. Allowing him to hover in that case doesn't really matter. And I didn't say anything that was unreasonable, I was saying that there is no need to fix M2, its my personal opinion that a hover after grabbing a ledge does not matter for M2, he doesn't need it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Thank goodness opinions can be wrong

 

[MetaKnight0]

I see no issue with how it is currently. If you can't hover after a double jump normally why should you be able to double jump, grab edge, and then still retain double jump.

It doesn't matter that peach keeps her hover after a double jump. She isn't mewtwo. It's more relevant to make sure mewtwo s design is consistent. If he used double jump, he loses his hover. Simple as that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Except it's not that simple. Grabbing the edge is not the same as remaining airborne. Characters with unique movement options in PM have always been handled on an individual basis when to grabbing the edge. examples- Ike only gets 3 up-bs that can grab the edge before landing, ROB only gets a boost back if he has none left, peach can float from he edge if she hasn't used it yet (but only once w/o landing), etc. MewTwo's hover feels in every situation like an alternative to jump, a choice to make between the two, it's obviously different from peach's in that way, who has a separate counter. But the only place where it's not an alternative is at the edge, where only double jump is refreshed. And it's refreshed like normal, that is, without regard to whether or not it's been used before grabbing the edge. But hover seems excluded from that, and for no other reason than having a counter that's marked when he DJs and is only restored when he lands. It seems like an oversight, and the fact that no P:MBR have commented on this seems indicative of that.

 

[MetaKnight0]

k wut

hover vs double jump is one or the other. you make the choice when you choose to double jump. you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

"Ike only gets 3 up-bs that can grab the edge before landing"
everyone's up b and dj gets refreshed on the ledge. this specific change is to prevent stalling.
"ROB only gets a boost back if he has none left,"
everyone's up b and dj gets refreshed on the ledge. this specific change is to prevent stalling.
"peach can float from he edge if she hasn't used it yet"
peach's hover and double jump are independent from each other

if anything, implementing this same feature from other characters would imply something along the lines of "mewtwo cant grab the ledge with teleport more than 3 times without landing".

"MewTwo's hover feels in every situation like an alternative to jump, a choice to make between the two"

correction. it feels in every situation like an alternative to double jump. you already made your choice when you double jumped before grabbing the edge. i don't see what part of this could be an oversight.

 

[DrinkingFood]

correction. it feels in every situation like an alternative to double jump. you already made your choice when you double jumped before grabbing the edge. i don't see what part of this could be an oversight.

It should be obvious i meant double jump. But you're right- double jumping is making your choice. That choice, as with the case of any other character's unique movement options, is null once I grab the edge, excepting specific circumstances of preventing stalling. Examples of exceptions include the ones I listed above, and you're right, they exist as a way to prevent stalling. Admittedly a lazy and/or uninspired way to deal with stalling, but that's not the topic. None of that has anything to do with MewTwo- having the option to hover off the edge once in all situations where you haven't used it does not promote stalling anymore than he already can in any situation where he didn't double jump or hover before grabbing the edge.

And you're ****ing right I want to eat my cake. That's what cake is for. Who invented that analogy anyway? It's terrible. But don't get me wrong, nothing in this thread or in me is asking for MewTwo buffs in particular. I don't currently have an opinion of his viability. I know he's a frustrating character for some people to play against because his fantastic recovery in terms of length and options makes him a difficult character to edgeguard, so if I were to build him from the ground up but taking inspiration from Melee/PM, I'd try to find some way to deal with that. The double jump extension def would not come back, it's an unnecessary boon to an already godlike recovery.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Maybe you're right and it was an oversight by the PMBR, or, maybe they purposefully didn't add it in, for whatever reason. But there is no reason to get so worked up about it. The PMBR might simply have kept it out because they felt he was good enough when getting back on stage from the ledge, without using his hover or his dj, that he didn't need to hover to get back on. It could be as simple as that. Besides, your real question, at least according to other posts, is whether or not "this hover loss is an oversight or not". Since no one here who is not part of the PMBR would know the answer to that question, you don't need to get so defensive when other people propose their opinions, since no one HAS AN ANSWER.

 

[DrinkingFood]

there is no reason to get so worked up about it
you don't need to get so defensive

? I think you misread my posts
I am neither worked up nor overly defensive, and never was; I am only supporting my position.
Is it impossible to have a discussion without people misunderstanding the tone?

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Okay, just a little misunderstanding, I didn't get that you had already taken up a solid position, I thought you were just asking a general question. It probably was an oversight, or perhaps a glitch, now that I fully understand your argument. There isn't any reason for it not to be there. If you haven't already, you probably should report it to the bug forum.