Looking for input on my Smash 64 balance-patch ideas

[Deleted member]

I love Smash 64 for a few reasons, mostly because of how well it manages to hold up today. That being said, it's far from perfect and one of the reasons is the character balance. As well as the game is balanced (if only because there's 12 characters), it could be better. I'm not that into the Smash 64 community (as far as high-level play goes, and the disconnect isn't huge), so if any o' y'all want to tell me why this of planned character changes sucks, please inform me in a reply and I'll consider the reasoning as I revise the list. These are just notes I whipped up based on flaws people online frequently mention and problems I see characters having on netplay and stuff like that...

Here's the list of planned changes:

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Jigglypuff
-Rest has slightly less recovery and does more damage

Mario
-Down-special has SLIGHTLY reduced max height but is MUCH easier to reach max height with
-Fireballs deal more damage (probably not much more)

Samus
-A bit heavier (knockback-wise, untouched fall speed)
-A bit more aerial mobility
-Side-Smash has slight power increase
-Up-Smash has a bit more power (or links better)
-Slight increase in Charge-Shot hitbox
-Added/altered stages work better as Samus counter-picks

DK
-Bair is a more sexy kick (deals more damage on start, still has damage drop-off after time [the phrasing was just what I came up with in making the notes])
-Fair Meteors/Spikes harder
-Faster Up-Special (speed-wise/travels farther, but lasts the same amount of time and gains the same height)
-More hitstun on Up-air
-Weight increase (just a thought, as he's already really easy to combo)

Ness
-Reversion to JP (PK fire still deals US damage)
-PK Fire deals more shield damage and/or stun
-Some kind of change to PK Thunder (I'm between traveling farther, having invulnerability on the Thunder's spawn, like in later games, or dealing more knockback on PKT2, all of which have flaws)

Link
-Reversion to JP version with all buffs from NTSC
-PAL-style aerial mobility increase
(This one seems like a bit too much of a buff, but I'm not sure)

Luigi
-Drill deals more damage
-Down-Special gains height change like Mario's and kills easier
-Increased air-speed
-Sour-spot Shoryu deals more damage (Like, 1% more as in JP)
-Fireballs travel faster/farther (IDK which yet) and deal more damage

Some nerfs may happen, but balancing up is generally more fun, among other things

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The game would be a modification of the existing patch "19XX Tournoument Edition" (http://smashboards.com/threads/19xxte-ssb64-rom-hack-updated-6-30-2015.402248/) and would include other features like the option to disable tap-jump (with some accommodation for stick-jumping, I guess), GUI edits for convinience, and stage edits (not sure what exactly would be changed).

TL;DR: Read that big, un-educated list and tell me what should be added and removed to give the game the best balance possible

(PS: I'm garbage at formatting on forums, I'm so sorry)

 

[Annex]

Some neat changes, (and a few uninformed ones), but can you make any of it happen?
Everyone, EVERYONE, is an "ideas guy"

 

[Earthward Bound]

I personally feel it takes alot less work to "balance" it just tweaking some of the recoveries.

- pika gets only 1 of 2 quick attacks but also has a hitbox
- kirby can't grab the ledge on recovery
- less endlag for ness recovery
- more vertical on links recovery.

The problem with this though even if you can make this a reality is everyone has different ideas / opinions for what would make it "better" and I think you would have a hard time getting a like-minded group on board. Your list for example I thought had some good ideas, some i don't see the point in, and a few I just downright disagree with but then people are going to hate my list and so on and so forth. Im guessing to make something like this work you would either need to choose between being more subtle or more radical in your changes.

 

[asianaussie]

just make every character a reskinned version of NTSC link, that'll improve the game substantially

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Suffice to say smash 64 is the most balanced game out of the franchise and each character is literally viable and able to beat one another so I'm not really seeing the need for this

 

[asianaussie]

there's a difference between 'viable' and 'only-isai-would-enter-apex-with-viable'

 

[Shears]

The game is perfectly balanced and no need to make any changes.

 

[Earthward Bound]

Suffice to say smash 64 is the most balanced game out of the franchise and each character is literally viable and able to beat one another so I'm not really seeing the need for this

A common misconception as less characters = more balanced you wouild think/hope but no, smash 64 is terribly balanced just like melee and brawl and sometimes I even feel it might be the worst of the 3.

 

[smashfool]

A common misconception as less characters = more balanced you wouild think/hope but no, smash 64 is terribly balanced just like melee and brawl and sometimes I even feel it might be the worst of the 3.

do you even play sbb64?

 

[Shears]

A common misconception as less characters = more balanced you wouild think/hope but no, smash 64 is terribly balanced just like melee and brawl and sometimes I even feel it might be the worst of the 3.

Your entire post is a misconception.

 

[Earthward Bound]

do you even play sbb64?

-Pikachus worst mu is 50/50 vs... Himself
-The second best character in the game gets counterpicked fairly hard by the 1st
- considered high tiers like falcon, fox, yoshi for the most part struggle with pikachu/kirby
- all of the above stuff any of the lower tiers hopes and dreams

Its an awesome game and i'm personally not interested in any "balance" fixes myself and calling it half sarcastically the worst might be a little harsh and quite honestly I don't know enough about brawl to make that claim. But its quite obvious the game suffers balance issues that become increasingly noticable the higher level of play you attain.

 

[Earthward Bound]

Your entire post is a misconception.

Said the pikachu main.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Pikachu is one of the worst characters in the game. Shears will agree.

 

[Shears]

-Pikachus worst mu is 50/50 vs... Himself
-The second best character in the game gets counterpicked fairly hard by the 1st
- considered high tiers like falcon, fox, yoshi for the most part struggle with pikachu/kirby
- all of the above stuff any of the lower tiers hopes and dreams

Its an awesome game and i'm personally not interested in any "balance" fixes myself and calling it half sarcastically the worst might be a little harsh and quite honestly I don't know enough about brawl to make that claim. But its quite obvious the game suffers balance issues that become increasingly noticable the higher level of play you attain.

Falcon wrecks pika. That matchup is 100-0 falcon. LD probably does his best against pikas while he has struggled against kirby, falcon, and yoshi. So empirically, pika is not foxs worst matchup and as it looks, fox is winning that matchup. Kirby doesn't get counterpicked hard by pika but pika does win that matchup. I use Luigi as my low tier character and I find him to have a better matchup against Xanadu mid level pikas than Xanadu mid level falcons, foxs, or kirbys. Its still in pikas favor, but its not his hardest matchup. Pika is the easiest and safest character to edgeguard. Lacks any simple 0-deaths and requires reads and edgeguards to take short stocks. He is the easiest character to combo. Has only one attractive costume selection (blue hat). Hes also a bunny and not a rat. Can you find a worse character in the game?

 

[Deleted member]

Some neat changes, (and a few uninformed ones), but can you make any of it happen?
Everyone, EVERYONE, is an "ideas guy"

Which changes would you consider uninformed? Also, changing the game should be as easy as isolating values and increasing or decreasing them, as people have been using Gameshark codes for for years. That being said, the lack of any hacking tools made by the SSB64 community will make it take a lot longer and that will probably be the hardest pert. With any luck, I'll have a decent version out in a year (That sounds like a long time, but, in addition to summer break, this is my last year of school, so I'll get lots of free time.).
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The problem with this though even if you can make this a reality is everyone has different ideas / opinions for what would make it "better" and I think you would have a hard time getting a like-minded group on board. Your list for example I thought had some good ideas, some i don't see the point in, and a few I just downright disagree with but then people are going to hate my list and so on and so forth. Im guessing to make something like this work you would either need to choose between being more subtle or more radical in your changes.

I might just end up toning down all radical changes here and adding a few more small ones to those characters. My original thought was to address crippling weakness some characters had without removing them entirely (people should still know how to beat a character), but I see your point. Also, less landing lag after PKT2 is probably one of the best fixes for it.
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just make every character a reskinned version of NTSC link, that'll improve the game substantially

I'll consider it.
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Suffice to say smash 64 is the most balanced game out of the franchise and each character is literally viable and able to beat one another so I'm not really seeing the need for this

Sure, their "viable", but the game came out in '99. There's not much tech to find with low tiers that high tiers aren't figuring out how to beat just as fast. Again, I see your point, but struggling to win against almost every character because you picked Luigi just doesn't sit well with me...
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The game is perfectly balanced and no need to make any changes.

I'm ignoring these posts for somewhat obvious reasons.
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-Pikachus worst mu is 50/50 vs... Himself

That's actually hilarious.
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Posts that claim Pikachu is the worst character in the game will be treated as trolls on the spot. If you have an argument for one of its weaknesses, bring that up without making the claim that its bottom 3 material.

Thank you for all the feedback.

 

[Earthward Bound]

....Has only one attractive costume selection (blue hat)

I lol'd

... cause everyone knows red hat is better.

 

[Shears]

How can you balance a game when you don't understand anything about it or play it? Stop quoting a wiki that is wrong. Any assertions made by anyone not knowing the game will be taken as trolling. Pika is not broken and the other characters aren't bad. Stick to project M.

 

[Fireblaster]

In my opinion the best way to argue balance is to address the best characters and go from there. The top 3 characters in this game are basically rock paper scissors with falcon over pika, pika over Kirby, Kirby over falcon. Everyone else below isn't AS versatile but still capable of holding their own against at least one of the top tiers and each one has a unique tool that they bring to the game. So while the lower tiers do have bad matchups, they still have ways to fight well against the stronger characters and are always useful in some way unlike half the cast in every other smash game

 

[Shears]

Lets break down your suggestions to show how foolish and ignorant you are.

I'm not that into the Smash 64 community (as far as high-level play goes, and the disconnect isn't huge)

You admitting you don't know what you're talking about so this line alone should discredit any suggestions you came up with

These are just notes I whipped up based on flaws people online frequently mention and problems I see characters having on netplay and stuff like that...

The wiki is not a valid source to cite

Jigglypuff

-Rest has slightly less recovery and does more damage

This isn't melee, the punish window for jiggly post rest is not as big and rarely leads to jiggly losing a stock, especially if the player dies above the top or is a slower character or is even off by a few frames. The fact that its possible jiggly can be punished makes the status quo important for balance. Make the best and quickest killing move in the game that has an easy setup to now be risk free and even stronger and you have unbalanced the game.

Verdict: No

Mario

-Down-special has SLIGHTLY reduced max height but is MUCH easier to reach max height with

Ease of reaching height isn't a factor for anyone but noobs, you aren't balancing this game for noobs you're balancing it for competitive players so don't base your impressions off your own experiences not knowing how to mash buttons, zcancel, short hop, or how to unlock item switch.

Verdict: No

-Fireballs deal more damage (probably not much more)

Isn't necessary its already one of the best projectiles in the game. Maybe it helps Mario out a bit so its not a bad mod but not a necessary mod.

Verdict: Maybe

Samus

-A bit heavier (knockback-wise, untouched fall speed)

Already the second heaviest character in the game and is the hardest to combo and KO off any single move. Killing samus requires edgeguarding which won't change when she is heavier and if you reduce knockback you're only going to make her easier to combo and therefore make samus worse.

Verdict: No

-A bit more aerial mobility

She already has really good tech chase options and has decent aerial mobility. An increase in this would help samus out a bit and wouldn't really be a bad mod.

Verdict: Maybe

-Side-Smash has slight power increase

Not necessary with angling the forward smash. If you didn't know it could be angled you once again proved you're a noob and aren't qualified to be making mod decisions. I think if it was made any stronger then samus would have a legit shield break with an easy setup, couple that with some small combo chains and charge shot for quick KOs, and you might have overpowered samus.

Verdict: No

-Up-Smash has a bit more power (or links better)

Not a bad mod, its rarely used as is and strengthening it won't really change that much but can give it more use in certain situations.

Verdict: Maybe

-Slight increase in Charge-Shot hitbox

No, just no. Its huge as is, incredibly powerful, and comes out decently quick that with a proper read its hard to avoid especially considering theres no airdodging (btw, this is 64, theres no airdodging). This move shouldn't have guaranteed setups or be inescapable, it should have minimal setups and require reads since its so strong.

Verdict: No

-Added/altered stages work better as Samus counter-picks

I don't think you understand the scope of this because making a stage that is better for samus and not better for any other character just doesn't make sense.

Verdict: No

DK

-Bair is a more sexy kick (deals more damage on start, still has damage drop-off after time [the phrasing was just what I came up with in making the notes])

DK bair is already pretty good, it spaces well and hangs out a while. Increasing it could help a bit but its not going to make the biggest difference as long as it can still chain into things. If it had much more knockback it might not be as good since it already sets up to grab and grab is a great KO.

Verdict: No

-Fair Meteors/Spikes harder

Its already one of the best dunks in the game, not needed. And dunk on stage sets up really well

Verdict: No

-Faster Up-Special (speed-wise/travels farther, but lasts the same amount of time and gains the same height)

You can't get faster than 1 frame and surprise, it comes out in 1 frame and has invincibility for the first 4 frames and invincible arms all the way through. Its already one of the best combo breakers so no need to improve this. Its horizontal distance is one of the best so this can stay as is.

Verdict: No

-More hitstun on Up-air

Unless you don't know how to zcancel, this is one of DKs best combo moves already, any more hitstun and DK has the easiest clap setups and DK punch setups and couple with your other suggestions, would be one of the most dangerous characters.

Verdict: No

-Weight increase (just a thought, as he's already really easy to combo)

Due to his weight, hes not that easy to combo at low percents because he can DI (64 has DI btw) and not get knocked far enough for characters to continue uair or utilt chains. Make him heavier and he won't die (hes the heaviest character in the game) and comboing him will be even harder since he won't go up anywhere and can just tech, land, grab, and KO you back. You already want to give him one of the best recoveries, best spikes, best combos and easiest KOs, and now you want to make him unkillable?

Verdict: No

Ness

-Reversion to JP (PK fire still deals US damage)
-PK Fire deals more shield damage and/or stun

So pk fire shield breaks? Ness is a very hard character to use but he already has shield breaks and really good combos at high level. You shouldn't be using pk fire anyway this isn't brawl lucas. Again, mods shouldn't be made to balance it for you and your noob friends.

Verdict: No

-Some kind of change to PK Thunder (I'm between traveling farther, having invulnerability on the Thunder's spawn, like in later games, or dealing more knockback on PKT2, all of which have flaws)

Traveling farther isn't that bad, it would make him less edgeguardable since he can recover out of range of other characters. Invulnerability on thunder spawn makes him unedgeguardable and coupled with him already getting invincibility frames when hes moving and already having great distance you took his only weakness and made it a strength. Ness is OP now. He doesn't need more knockback with his upb, it isn't offensive and already KOs early.

Verdict: No

Link

-Reversion to JP version with all buffs from NTSC
-PAL-style aerial mobility increase
(This one seems like a bit too much of a buff, but I'm not sure)

Link is a monster already and the only buff he would need is upb height and distance which you didn't mention.

Verdict: No because you didn't say what I suggested

Luigi

-Drill deals more damage

Ok mod. Won't change it much except maybe gets an upb KO a few percents earlier.

Verdict: Maybe

-Down-Special gains height change like Mario's and kills easier

It kills really well already and with how bad his recovery is you better not reduce his height.

Verdict: No

-Increased air-speed

This could be a good mod but if his air speed is too good then he will have such an easy time approaching and spacing and his already good combo and KO potential might be too good when coupled with great approaching and spacing. This might break luigi if overdone, but if marginally increased could be a decent buff.

Verdict: No

-Sour-spot Shoryu deals more damage (Like, 1% more as in JP)

This isn't why luigi is bad.

Verdict: No

-Fireballs travel faster/farther (IDK which yet) and deal more damage

And finally we get to the only mod you suggested thats actually good and can make a difference into making a character more balanced.

Verdict: Yes

But yeah, I'm clearly the one trolling lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Lets break down your suggestions to show how foolish and ignorant you are.

I already said I was ignoring these posts, I don't know why you bothered writing this.

But yeah, I'm clearly the one trolling lol.

Your point is...?

 

[Annex]

Don't worry aobut him SUPERKIDRA; Shears gets mad for fun. That's why he's my favorite

 

[asianaussie]

i dont care about link's ****ty up-b, just let him jump with the speed of a normal character and make his u-smash second hitbox not ****

then all you have to do is remove fox from the game and link is sweet

 

[Deleted member]

i dont care about link's ****ty up-b, just let him jump with the speed of a normal character and make his u-smash second hitbox not ****

then all you have to do is remove fox from the game and link is sweet

So you'd like a better jump-squat, or better jump height (EDIT: I meant mobility, not really "height")? And would you recommend just making Up-Smash link better, or giving the second slice a rework (I'd prefer if it actually moved across the x-axis in this 2D fighter, but that's me.).

At the VERY least, I'm going to give Link the shading his sword had in JP, because it looked way better.

 

[Shears]

I already said I was ignoring these posts, I don't know why you bothered writing this.


Your point is...?

You're shooting yourself in the foot by not reading my post. If you are capable of making these mods (which no one really has before) than you might want to actually learn about the game and competitive play before doing so, which you can do by reading my post.

Theres a reason I don't have mains of every game under my avatar, because I don't bother with other games and know more about 64 than you do. Your suggestions are awful and will be destructive to 64. Get someone else who is a top player and respected in the community to dissect your list of suggestions and you will find more agreement with me than with you. Some people might say some of my maybe verdicts should be yes, but a lot of your suggestions are flat out no. Theres a reason why every response (not just mine) has been telling you that the game is either balanced enough, you're misinformed, and/or questioned whether or not you even play the game. Coincidence?

My point is, if you didn't come across so serious and weren't a self admitting misinformed noob, your suggestions would be taken as trolling. I'm not the troll here.

 

[VVilde]

The game is perfectly balanced

$1000 money match my pika vs ur link

 

[Shears]

$1000 money match my pika vs ur link

You are far more adept with pika than I am with link that does not mean that link doesn't have advantages and tools pika does have and that pika will always outright beat link and all other characters better than link will. If you don't understand what the idea of balanced means than you probably shouldn't comment. If you also think this game and the meta is fully developed and every character is already being played at the highest level it can be then you probably should try making it out of pools at apex first instead of getting rekt by other noobs.

 

[Annex]

If you are capable of making these mods (which no one really has before)

Breh there are GS codes for falcons knee. People have messed around with this stuff, its just that theyre not interested right now and arent taking requests

You know Shears, one day you'll say something I agree with and I wont know what to with myself

 

[Shears]

Breh there are GS codes for falcons knee. People have messed around with this stuff, its just that theyre not interested right now and arent taking requests

You know Shears, one day you'll say something I agree with and I wont know what to with myself

Breh, brush your babies teeth. You need to agree with that before theres a chance you agree with anything else.

 

[Annex]

I'll start brushing my hypothetical baby's teeth as soon as you stop brushing your hypothetical dog's

 

[KnitePhox]

annex i thought we were over this

there's better and more pros than cons for baby teeth brushing




a good patch for this game that i would like to try is removal of sheilds and grabable ledges (can still ledge cancel but not grab ledges). also madao patch v0.1 link

 

[VVilde]

If you don't understand what the idea of balanced means than you probably shouldn't comment.

ok hitler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TR5N1doYNM

 

[Shears]

I'll start brushing my hypothetical baby's teeth as soon as you stop brushing your hypothetical dog's

I'll admit it's not necessary for a dog but it is healthier to do so.

 

[asianaussie]

link gets pretty wrecked by pika stop deluding yourself shears

So you'd like a better jump-squat, or better jump height (EDIT: I meant mobility, not really "height")? And would you recommend just making Up-Smash link better, or giving the second slice a rework (I'd prefer if it actually moved across the x-axis in this 2D fighter, but that's me.).

a major weakness to link is that his jump animation takes 7 frames while fox/kirby/pika take 3 - this makes his shield even worse than most and opens a pretty sad window between his grounded state and his SH d-air state

if samus has a 3 frame jump then why cant link

racists

 

[Annex]

Another fix would be making links upb oos be viable by removing the weak inner hitbox
As it is right now, if youre in shield and being pressured upb'ing will probably only hit them with that weak hitbox, and they'll be able to come back and hit you with anything they want before youre done spinning
Link's shield is very sad, especially for carrying one
:'c

But yeah a normal jumpsquat would be way better

 

[LimeSoda]

The game is perfectly balanced and no need to make any changes.

There are certainly a lot of valid reasons for not supporing a balance patch, especially if it were pushed for competitive play, like accessibility to the scene decreasing. But I'm not sure how you can claim then game is perfectly balanced--I mean I know you're most likely exaggerating, but I've heard wilder things (Pika's easiest to edge guard).

 

[Shears]

(Pika's easiest to edge guard)

Not an exaggeration. Revan argued this with me, to which I proved it to him through example and observation.

 

[Annex]

Not an exaggeration. Revan argued this with me, to which I proved it to him through example and observation.

No, you "proved" it by redefining what "easiest to edgeguard" means, and then Revan conceded that if you use that definition which nobody else uses then yes, pika would be considered the easiest to edgeguard.

 

[Shears]

No, you "proved" it by redefining what "easiest to edgeguard" means, and then Revan conceded that if you use that definition which nobody else uses then yes, pika would be considered the easiest to edgeguard.

Safest to edgeguard is separate and its hard to argue against it because there exists no cases where attempting to hit pika out of upb can lead to a counter result, you either hit him or reset to neutral. There is no negative outcome to edgeguarding pika.

The proof of easiest to edgeguard comes from the fact that his recovery is straight and linear and all his options can be covered if the player has fast enough reactions. The rare and difficult cases where pika can truly escape are less probable then the cases on other characters where the edgeguard fails and therefore makes him easier since edgeguarding pika is not only a safe task, but an easy one with high reward and low risk.

*Revan said if I beat him in pika dittos and edgeguarded him then he would concede. I 3 stocked him.

 

[asianaussie]

that still doesnt make him easiest to edgeguard

it just means you've worked out a system to edgeguard him, and if you think pika is actually harder to edgeguard than ness then you should lay off the crazy pills for awhile

 

[caneut]

Sheer ill $100 mm my pika vs your luigi