Looking for a secondary mainly to cover Yoshi and Palutena

[MG_3989]

I’ve been considering Young Link and Ike and I know Young Link beats Yoshi but I’m not sure about Palutena. I haven’t looked at the matchup spread for Ike yet but he’s a very balanced character

Any other suggestions are welcome and if there are any bad matchups I missed and you guys suggest covering that would be awesome. I plan on dealing with most of the sword characters with Ness because even though they can be tough I feel like I can win those ones. So what you guys think? Thanks a lot!

 

[Deleted member]

seems to fit well with her fast disjoints for Palutena and Yoshi. Wario and Roy are other good options.

 

[MG_3989]

seems to fit well with her fast disjoints for Palutena and Yoshi. Wario and Roy are other good options.

I’ve definitely been thinking Lucina but she’s not that much fun to play for me. I was actually also thinking Palutena. I’m gonna try out Roy too

 

[Deleted member]

I’ve definitely been thinking Lucina but she’s not that much fun to play for me. I was actually also thinking Palutena. I’m gonna try out Roy too

I understand it took me like Forever of going through characters I hated playing before I finally settled on the R.O.B/Ness duel main I have now.

 

[MG_3989]

I understand it took me like Forever of going through characters I hated playing before I finally settled on the R.O.B/Ness duel main I have now.

Yeah I’ll figure it out eventually. Thankfully Ness is a beast in this game without many bad matchups and nothing insurmountable (although if you go into the competitive characters thread he’s somehow not a high tier character and he’s mid because reasons that don’t make sense) so I can make due with that for now. I wanna find somebody I really enjoy playing

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah I’ll figure it out eventually. Thankfully Ness is a beast in this game without many bad matchups and nothing insurmountable (although if you go into the competitive characters thread he’s somehow not a high tier character and he’s mid because reasons that don’t make sense) so I can make due with that for now. I wanna find somebody I really enjoy playing

Ya they think he will drop off they need to watch Awsten steamroll everybody in the tournaments he's in I think Ness is at least top 8.

 

[MG_3989]

Ya they think he will drop off they need to watch Awsten steamroll everybody in the tournaments he's in I think Ness is at least top 8.

He is easy, I’d call him borderline top tier if I wouldn’t get roasted for it. Unfortunately Awestin can’t travel or he’d win majors

They don’t understand that Smash 4 doesn’t matter and it makes no sense to compare the character to his Smash 4 iteration when he’s obviously better and it’s literally a different game. Let him fly under the radar and keep taking tournaments left and right

 

[Specs64z]

He is easy, I’d call him borderline top tier if I wouldn’t get roasted for it. Unfortunately Awestin can’t travel or he’d win majors

They don’t understand that Smash 4 doesn’t matter and it makes no sense to compare the character to his Smash 4 iteration when he’s obviously better and it’s literally a different game. Let him fly under the radar and keep taking tournaments left and right

I remember that a few days after the game’s release, I made the claim that Ness’s airdodge was his greatest buff from Smash 4 because it made his recovery lowkey super good, and some guy basically called me a scrub because the idea that Ness’s new air dodge was a buff was impossible because “it was good in Smash 4, and airdodge got nerfed”. The same “but in Smash 4!...” mentality you just pointed out. Now that the game has been out a few months, I feel vindicated and can confidently say it’s become very obvious that Ness’s new airdodge is a godsend in alleviating his greatest weakness.

 

[MG_3989]

I remember that a few days after the game’s release, I made the claim that Ness’s airdodge was his greatest buff from Smash 4 because it made his recovery lowkey super good, and some guy basically called me a scrub because the idea that Ness’s new air dodge was a buff was impossible because “it was good in Smash 4, and airdodge got nerfed”. The same “but in Smash 4!...” mentality you just pointed out. Now that the game has been out a few months, I feel vindicated and can confidently say it’s become very obvious that Ness’s new airdodge is a godsend in alleviating his greatest weakness.

I just don’t understand how the Smash 4 arguments and “he has exploitable weaknesses that haven’t changed” (so does almost every character and they’re so overblown and his recovery issues have changed which people refuse to acknowledge) but it’s literally a different game. His results speak for themselves. His kit speaks for itself. If he was a new character people would be like “omg top tier”. People keep saying he has potential to fall and for the meta to change to not be in his favor but doesn’t every character?

Then people are confused why I argue that the character is good and make the same illogical points over and over again. Oh well, I’ll let him fly under the radar

 

[Specs64z]

I just don’t understand how the Smash 4 arguments and “he has exploitable weaknesses that haven’t changed” (so does almost every character and they’re so overblown and his recovery issues have changed which people refuse to acknowledge) but it’s literally a different game. His results speak for themselves. His kit speaks for itself. If he was a new character people would be like “omg top tier”. People keep saying he has potential to fall and for the meta to change to not be in his favor but doesn’t every character?

Then people are confused why I argue that the character is good and make the same illogical points over and over again. Oh well, I’ll let him fly under the radar

According to this, Ness is in the top 8 in terms of results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJ6KNuFiqQ

Saying Ness is top tier is a valid opinion. Saying he's mid tier or lower is much more difficult to justify at this point, I'd say.

 

[MG_3989]

According to this, Ness is in the top 8 in terms of results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJ6KNuFiqQ

Saying Ness is top tier is a valid opinion. Saying he's mid tier or lower is much more difficult to justify at this point, I'd say.

Yeah I’ve seen this one. People won’t admit bias when they say Ness is mid-tier and “has a lot to prove”. I think that a lot of people just don’t want to see Ness as a top tier character for whatever reason and make illogical arguments that have nothing to do with his kit (other than his recovery which they probably haven’t even put any research into how much better it is), his matchups, or his results. Their arguments to why he’s mid tier are based on his past performance in a different game, where he was a different character, with different physics, and a different meta which is a completely illogical and irrelevant argument. I’ve shown people this video and other proof too but “he’s still not a top 20 character in the game” and I don’t get how people don’t see how illogical it is that they’re saying these things

I don’t know what it is about Ness that makes people mad and skeptical but there’s something about him lol

 

[kraw23]

I've picked wolf as my secondary. Fun to play (imo), high air speed and at least even with the other high tiers. He also has a quick nair which is good because my SHnair muscle memory is deeply engrained at this point!

 

[MG_3989]

I've picked wolf as my secondary. Fun to play (imo), high air speed and at least even with the other high tiers. He also has a quick nair which is good because my SHnair muscle memory is deeply engrained at this point!

I was thinking about Wolf just because he’s good, he’s quick to pick up, and he is pretty fun but idk. I think I’m just gonna play around more. I’ve got plenty of time to make any decisions

 

[Specs64z]

All my characters are based off my love for a series more so than how viable they are, but it just so happens almost all my characters are actually viable in this game, so thats neat.

Lucas is another Mother character, so obviously the EarthBound fanboy in me needed to pick him up. He has an amazing recovery, so characters that rely on gimping Ness won’t be able to rely on gimping Lucas, plus Lucas has a crazy off stage game. I think Lucas is sleeper high tier, but he’s pretty difficult to use well (I’m still not very good with him) so he’s probably not great as a secondary for most people. Lucas does well against Palutena compared to Ness, mainly because Palutena has a much harder time gimping Lucas.

I also play Ike because PoR is one of my favorite FE games. He’s got a surprisingly good combo game considering how hard he hits and how early he deletes stocks, and his range is (almost) unmatched. Ike does well against basically the whole cast, so you can’t go wrong with him.

 

[$.A.F.]

Okay what majors have been won by Ness?

 

[MG_3989]

Okay what majors have been won by Ness?

What majors have been won by Inkling, Fox, Pikachu, Olimar, Palutena, etc...?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I agree that Lucina is real easy to learn, and you'll benefit from using her a lot. Especially if you're used to using Marth throughout all the Smash games. She basically takes less effort than the likes of Melee, Brawl and Smash 4 Marth, but all of the benefits. If she isn't your taste, or you simply prefer more raw power, consider Chrom or Ike. Lucina is also a great character to improve your fundamentals with, so playing her basically improves your whole game.

Since you also used to be a Diddy enthusiast, I'll say that Diddy will do fine vs Yoshi, but won't do that much better against Palutena. Many of the same things are gonna hinder you with Diddy when fighting against her comparing to Ness's matchup to her. You won't have all that much trouble with her reflection, but the N Air spam will combo Diddy hard.

 

[Specs64z]

Okay what majors have been won by Ness?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJ6KNuFiqQ

no majors (at least that I know of), but Ness has been on a tear in locals, especially with Awestin winning over the likes of MVD, Bestness, Tamim, Captain Zack, and beating Lima on a consistent weekly basis. 3 Ness mains made it to top 64 at G6.

It’s not hard to point out all the ways that Ness is doing well, and doing it consistently. I counter with this question: what data shows that Ness is justifiably mid-low tier?

 

[$.A.F.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJ6KNuFiqQ

no majors (at least that I know of), but Ness has been on a tear in locals, especially with Awestin winning over the likes of MVD, Bestness, Tamim, Captain Zack, and beating Lima on a consistent weekly basis. 3 Ness mains made it to top 64 at G6.

It’s not hard to point out all the ways that Ness is doing well, and doing it consistently. I counter with this question: what data shows that Ness is justifiably mid-low tier?

I never said he was mid low tier. But you guys had Ness as a borderline top tier wrecking the tournament scene. You’re telling me he has no major’s? None? And one player doesn’t define a character. Zaki wrecked Mk Leo and D3 was still bottom 3. Istudying has wins over half the top 10 and yet greninja never even hit top 20. I can get behind Ness being top tier, but unless he’s top 8ing majors, he isn’t any kind of top tier.

What majors have been won by Inkling, Fox, Pikachu, Olimar, Palutena, etc...?

. Worst case scenario, they’re placing extremely well at majors. Two Palutenas made top 8 at Genesis, and Nairo made GF at Glitch. Esam’s Pika has taken a set off Tweek and made top 8 at Genesis. Two Olimar players made Genesis top 8 and Dabuz 3-0d Tweek. Two foxes made Top 8 at Glitch and light got top 3. Not to mention the absolute tear Light went on at Genesis to get 5th. ZD made top 32 as well.

 

[MG_3989]

. Worst case scenario, they’re placing extremely well at majors. Two Palutenas made top 8 at Genesis, and Nairo made GF at Glitch. Esam’s Pika has taken a set off Tweek and made top 8 at Genesis. Two Olimar players made Genesis top 8 and Dabuz 3-0d Tweek. Two foxes made Top 8 at Glitch and light got top 3. Not to mention the absolute tear Light went on at Genesis to get 5th. ZD made top 32 as well.

I understand this not to mention Ness had 3 top 32s (or at least very close) at Genesis, and locally really is wrecking the tournament scene. I didn’t say he was top tier either, just solidly high tier and even calling him high-mid is underrating him. He’s clearly a top 15-20 character in this game. Also doesn’t help that Ness only has about 4 top players and one that doesn’t travel and literally nobody is using him as a secondary. I’m not saying he’s top tier I’m just saying Smash 4 bias is severely underrating him among the community

 

[Specs64z]

I never said he was mid low tier.

You didn't really say much of anything, to be frank. We were talking about how Ness is maybe top tier, and how consistent his results have been, and you asked if he won a major as if that was enough to debunk all our discussion. If winning a major makes you top tier, Sonic is top tier... which nobody seems to agree with.

But you guys had Ness as a borderline top tier wrecking the tournament scene. You’re telling me he has no major’s? None?

He is wrecking the tournament scene. FOW hasn't lost a tournament outside Genesis, and Awestin has only dropped 3 tournaments with 2 of them being 2nd place finishes. Bestness and Shaky have also been taking names all over the place.

And one player doesn’t define a character. Zaki wrecked Mk Leo and D3 was still bottom 3. Istudying has wins over half the top 10 and yet greninja never even hit top 20. I can get behind Ness being top tier, but unless he’s top 8ing majors, he isn’t any kind of top tier.

One player? Did you even read my post? 3 Ness mains made it to top 64 at Genesis 6. Shaky and Bestness got 33rd and FOW got 25th. Awestin wasn't even there (he is unable to travel, unfortunately), and it seems pretty clear from his past results he would have done about as well.
There's also a big difference between Zaki beating MKleo 1 time and Awestin consistently beating top ranked players like Lima.

 

[MG_3989]

We shouldn’t even have to make this argument. If Ness was new to the game with his kit and results people would be saying top tier all over the place, but he’s not and people have a Ness bias. It exists and it would be impossible to deny it at this point

 

[Specs64z]

We shouldn’t even have to make this argument. If Ness was new to the game with his kit and results people would be saying top tier all over the place, but he’s not and people have a Ness bias. It exists and it would be impossible to deny it at this point

Part of it is probably because Ness was garbage in every game before Smash 4, and even in Smash 4 he still dropped to mid tier. People potentially are hesitant to rank him higher because of his history of dropping off.

I don't forsee a drop like in previous games, though. In smash 4, Ness was a surprise top tier in the early meta because people were so used to Ness being bad, and they couldn't deal with his kit. They didn't know how to deal with him, but as the game progressed he became easier to predict and got wrecked by DLC/Rosaluma. Now in Smash ultimate, even top players who have been dealing with Ness for years are dropping to him and struggling to edgeguard him, probably because of how stupid good his airdodge is. Ness also has combos, kill confirms, and relentless advantage state which are all qualities that have proven very important for the other top tiers.

 

[MG_3989]

Part of it is probably because Ness was garbage in every game before Smash 4, and even in Smash 4 he still dropped to mid tier. People potentially are hesitant to rank him higher because of his history of dropping off.

I don't forsee a drop like in previous games, though. In smash 4, Ness was a surprise top tier in the early meta because people were so used to Ness being bad, and they couldn't deal with his kit. They didn't know how to deal with him, but as the game progressed he became easier to predict and got wrecked by DLC/Rosaluma. Now in Smash ultimate, even top players who have been dealing with Ness for years are dropping to him and struggling to edgeguard him, probably because of how stupid good his airdodge is. Ness also has combos, kill confirms, and relentless advantage state which are all qualities that have proven very important for the other top tiers.

Exactly, and if you think about it this is a new game with a new character (every character is new essentially) so I don’t get how the past matters or those arguments are logical at all

 

[$.A.F.]

I’ll be frank. Ness is in the current meta good. There is no denying that. However Ness hasn’t even made top 8 at a major. There is no denying that. You can speculate about placements they could have gotten, but they didn’t. If ness starts making top 8 at majors, we can talk about top tier.

 

[MG_3989]

I’ll be frank. Ness is in the current meta good. There is no denying that. However Ness hasn’t even made top 8 at a major. There is no denying that. You can speculate about placements they could have gotten, but they didn’t. If ness starts making top 8 at majors, we can talk about top tier.

Just curious where would you put him now? Top 15?

 

[Bcinq]

I am a bit confuse about top 8 at majors=top tier.
I viewed the 2 most recent somewhat reliable tierlists (ESAM's and Samsora's) and both of them have top tier characters that have not got top 8 at a major (PKMN trainer,snake,yoshi,shulk correct me if some of them did).
from my point of view Ness is in the the top 15-20 mark, either the worst top tier or in the high part of high tier.
A character DOES NOT need Top 8 results to be top tier in the current state in the game.

 

[Specs64z]

I am a bit confuse about top 8 at majors=top tier.
I viewed the 2 most recent somewhat reliable tierlists (ESAM's and Samsora's) and both of them have top tier characters that have not got top 8 at a major (PKMN trainer,snake,yoshi,shulk correct me if some of them did).
from my point of view Ness is in the the top 15-20 mark, either the worst top tier or in the high part of high tier.
A character DOES NOT need Top 8 results to be top tier in the current state in the game.

$.A.F. is putting all his stock in major tournament results as the only factor to determing tier lists, which is a defendable position to be sure, but one I disagree with. Those tier lists you mentioned also take theorycraft, personal experience, and probably Ness’s consistent placings in non-major tournaments into account.

I’ll be frank. Ness is in the current meta good. There is no denying that. However Ness hasn’t even made top 8 at a major. There is no denying that. You can speculate about placements they could have gotten, but they didn’t. If ness starts making top 8 at majors, we can talk about top tier.

I did find 1 Ness top 8 at a major. Gackt got 5th at Umebura SP2. Not the consistency you’re wanting, I’m sure, but this shows that it can indeed happen.
Edit: Jtails got 5th at Don’t Park on the Grass, and he played a lot of Ness.
Double Edit: Gackt got 3rd at Sumabato SP 2. I’m also noticing that Bestness, FOW, and Shaky haven’t traveled much so that definitely has an impact on Ness’s national performance.

 

[$.A.F.]

$.A.F. is putting all his stock in major tournament results as the only factor to determing tier lists, which is a defendable position to be sure, but one I disagree with. Those tier lists you mentioned also take theorycraft, personal experience, and probably Ness’s consistent placings in non-major tournaments into account.
I did find 1 Ness top 8 at a major. Gackt got 5th at Umebura SP2. Not the consistency you’re wanting, I’m sure, but this shows that it can indeed happen.

I call it as I see it. Ness i wrecking local scenes but just isn’t showing up on the big stage. I can’t really see him being top tier without results. While ness far exceeds Sm4sh yoshi, the situation doesn’t differ. Dominates locals, loyal player base that has them as top tier, lots of potential in theory, not showing up on the big stage. Ness is a high tier, but he’d have to have a huge surge in results to actually have him as a top tier.

 

[Specs64z]

I call it as I see it. Ness i wrecking local scenes but just isn’t showing up on the big stage. I can’t really see him being top tier without results. While ness far exceeds Sm4sh yoshi, the situation doesn’t differ. Dominates locals, loyal player base that has them as top tier, lots of potential in theory, not showing up on the big stage. Ness is a high tier, but he’d have to have a huge surge in results to actually have him as a top tier.

I can respect your opinion, but I am curious what Smash 4 Yoshi has to do with anything???

 

[$.A.F.]

I can respect your opinion, but I am curious what Smash 4 Yoshi has to do with anything???

Just a comparison.

 

[Specs64z]

Just a comparison.

To Smash 4 Yoshi's supposed potential? It's not a very comparable situation. Smash 4 Yoshi in 4 years never got even close to the numbers Ness has in majors so far in 2 months.

But now I'm getting way off topic, so I'm gonna leave this thread be unless someone has a super hot take on a good secondary.

 

[BlueJaySSB]

Peach/Daisy: Good combo game, good air mobility, good recovery, a good projectile, and they cover Yoshi/Palu well imo

 

[MG_3989]

Peach/Daisy: Good combo game, good air mobility, good recovery, a good projectile, and they cover Yoshi/Palu well imo

Only problem with that is I have to sink a ton of time into them. I like them too it’s just they don’t seem like a secondary character because of how technical they are and they still get beat my swords. I’ll try them out tho and if I’m able to pick them up quick we’ll see

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

Well im kinda late but K.Rool is a good choice if you do it for online because K.Rool Has Pretty good kill power and can be fun.
Another good choice is Lucina as most people said.

 

[MrFrigid]

MG_3989 Have you found a secondary? I've been playing lucina and greninja, but greninja requires a LOT of time, and doesn't necessarily do too well vs. yoshi. great against palu tho

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

I just mirror match them, personally.
I have been having much more trouble with Yoshi than Palutena, just because of his ability to out-prioritize me in the air. Palutena is slow enough that if you get in through her defenses, you can stay in. You kind of have to just camp out the Yoshi and hope to gimp him. That matchup is pure degeneracy.

Yoshi's Threat Bubbles:

In order to get in on Yoshi, Ness has to somehow deliver his hitboxes past Yoshi's hitboxes to Yoshi's hurtbox.

Diagonal attacks in the air are our best hope. Grounded, Yoshi can just keep swatting us away.
Before you commit to a secondary, really work on the matchup. Ness can still win, you just have to play smarter and do some studying.

 

[127]

No one shoot me for putting this out there, but I've been having a bit of fun using Mii Swordfighter and oddly need to use him right now (please see my about page). He seems well for approaching Yoshi, right? Maybe or maybe not Palu, but Ness definitely does have a tougher time against Yoshi--he eggs my fires :'(

 

[Luigifan18]

I just mirror match them, personally.
I have been having much more trouble with Yoshi than Palutena, just because of his ability to out-prioritize me in the air. Palutena is slow enough that if you get in through her defenses, you can stay in. You kind of have to just camp out the Yoshi and hope to gimp him. That matchup is pure degeneracy.

Yoshi's Threat Bubbles:

View attachment 204949

In order to get in on Yoshi, Ness has to somehow deliver his hitboxes past Yoshi's hitboxes to Yoshi's hurtbox.

View attachment 204950

Diagonal attacks in the air are our best hope. Grounded, Yoshi can just keep swatting us away.
Before you commit to a secondary, really work on the matchup. Ness can still win, you just have to play smarter and do some studying.

Diagonal attacks in the air, huh? Ness just so happens to have a clear-cut example of that...

 

[Jaro235]

Yoshi and Palutena are my two mains... I think Lucina is probably the best secondary to have because she definitely beats Yoshi in the matchup and I think even Palutena has a hard time dealing with her. Also, Lucina is relatively easy to pick up because she doesn’t have any weird gimmicks or tricks. If you think Lucina is kind of boring though, Shulk is another fighter that destroys both Yoshi and Palutena. He is a bit tougher to pick up, but it is well worth it if you stick with him.