Little Mac's Edge Game: Shoud it be buffed? (Discussion)

[Gavi1195]

I think most of us have been on this scenario. We start the match, we do a friendly start taunt and get ready for the fight. Only to find out that the opponent is sticking near the edge like a log and is waiting for you to approach. This situation can be encountered frequently among Little Mac players due to his limited recovery options. Although it's true that Little Mac has some tools to be able to combat this, they are VERY insignificant compared to the rest of the casts tools for the same scenario. (Little Mac is the only character in the game that, regardless of percentage, is at a clear disadvantage) Let's start by analyzing some of Little Mac's best options.

Note: I will be using Link as the opponent, due to my personal thoughts that he is a perfect candidate to demonstrate.

Scenario: Link stands in the corner with LM slightly out of tether range.

The ground

Option 1: Little Mac can Dash Grab the opponent.
This option is usually the first one that comes to mind in such a scenario. However, Little Mac's grab game is not very good. Out of personal experience, Dash grabs usually works when you successfully mind gamed the opponent into shielding or when they don't expect it. (This usually happens due to the reputation given by LM averages or newbies because of the dash attack to shield).

This technique is not the most efficient due to Spot Dodging. As well that Little Mac is not Captain Falcon. His Dash Cancel into Grab doesn't send him very far like Falcon, forcing him to get closer, well within Tilt Range. On top of that, it has a slow grab in comparison to other grab games which can make it easier to dodge and punish Little Mac hard.

Option 2 : Little Mac gets into D-tilt range and pressures the opponent.

This is, in my opinion, the best option Little Mac has in such a scenario. This is usually done in an attempt to get the opponent to make a mistake by dropping the shield at the wrong time when they go for a grab, tilt, jump, etc. If successfully pulled it can lead to another D-Tilt, F-Tilt, F-Smash (The straight and up angled versions are your best options), Up-B (Also into Dash>Up B which has stricter timing, but it's a true combo if done right) and even the KO punch. (Note: All of these options are highly dependent on the percentage the opponent. Also, I'm aware that D-Tilt to Side B is a true combo, but it can't kill on the percentages it can hit from the ledge and you will entirely miss the Side B if you try in the percentages it can due to D-Tilt sending the opponent too high and you will be "Resting In Pepperoni" for doing so.)

Even so, this is Little Mac's most riskiest option, especially with tether grab characters due to being within their range. Most of it is due to D-Tilt end lag when it hits. This time can be used to roll behind Little Mac (To which unless you were trying to bait it or the opponent doesn't react fast enough, they can grab or tilt you. Also if they roll and you react to it with D-Tilt. You will more than likely miss and they will have too much time to grab or tilt and even on certain cases, Smash attack you because you haven't yet recovered from D-Tilts ending lag), use a fast tilt and the most deadly of them all: Tether grab you. (It's also possible to get grabbed and Dash attacked, but on this scenarios, LM usually has enough time to respond with another D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Roll or Spot Dodge.) To top it off, you will most likely try to counter their roll with F-tilt (In my opinion, your best offensive option and can work) which can be shielded. If that is successfully pulled, you will be eating a hard punish because of F-Tilts ending lag and it can cost you the stock easily.

Option 3: F- Smash (Down angled version) the shield opponent.

In it's current state, I think that this is Little Mac's second worst option. (With the first being a Dash attack. BTW, Dash attack can work, but it's EXTREMELY risky and I don't think I need to remind you what is most likely to happen if the opponent shields it) This because of two reasons:

The first is that it's unreliable and requires 2 uncharged attacks. This is because one uncharged attack will consume about half the shield while a full charge is a guaranteed shield break unless it's perfect shielded. By the time you have the full charge, the opponent would more than likely have already severely punished you for it.

The second is the lag of the F-smash. Since you won't break the shield unless it's charged against a full shield. You will be stuck in this horrible end lag in which the opponent will go for the grab and make your effort pointless. The attack can also easily be rolled and if done so, chances are your going to eat a Smash from your back. *Insert Sad Song here*

Recovery:
Even on low percentages, it can be very rough for Little Mac to make it back. There isn't much reason for me to go into a lot of detail as to why, but here are some of the reasons:

1. Little Mac's Up B travels a poor vertical distance with very little horizontal distance in comparison to his ground version.

2. Little Mac will usually have to waste his second jump just make it back to the stage, so one mistake can easily end the stock there.

3. Little Mac doesn't snap to the ledge until the end of his Up B animation. This means that Little Mac will pass the ledge and put himself in a very vulnerable position which will almost always result in death. (You can make it back if you were not send too far AND you still have your second jump) Since you would more than likely have used your second jump. The opponent can use this opportunity to end your stock. Simply because of such a weakness, it can gimp even the Wall Jump>Up B recoveries which are your best options from recovering low if your second jump wasn't enough to make it back with Up B.

4. Side B sends you to helplessness and doesn't snap the ledge until the attack is performed. Easily one of the main reasons why Little Mac doesn't make it back to the stage.

5. Little Mac has poor air traction when moving Left to Right and the shortest hop in the game.

So now that we talked about the problems. We need to think on what would appropriate fixes while still maintaining true to the character's play style.

Here are what I would think would be appropriate Buffs to have:

1. D-Tilts end lag reduced by 2-3 frames

2. F-Tilts end lag reduced by 2-3 frames

3. F-Smash (Down angled) requires only 1 second of charging to shield break a full shield (The shield break is ignored if the opponent successfully perfect shields it.) This Idea comes as to add even more risk on this edge tactic against Little Mac. Because of the opponent being so close to the edge, Little Mac could Shield Break and use a Fully Charged Straight Lunge to be able to get a kill early due to it's insane Knockback. This would make the idea of standing near the ledge very risky and not advised against more skilled players, because just as the opponent would be able to take a stock so easily, Little Mac would be able to do the same if this tools were given to him.

4. Up B now has as much horizontal distance control as the ground version.

5. Up B can now snap to the ledge at any point during the animation*

6. Grab animation frames reduced by 2-4 frames (300 views special)

(Note: While I would love for Side B to not send Mac to helplessness and for him to have a better mid air jump with better air traction while moving left or right, I want to focus more on the buffs that I know would more likely get approved with his current style. As I would have no problem with Little Mac struggling offstage if he is given the tools to be able to take out the opponent just as easily as they are trying to take him out when near the edge)

*(Edit Note: After taking a bit more time to think, I decided to add one more buff that would help with recovery without changing the distance of Up B or Side B)

And just like that, we have reached the end of this message. If you stuck it out and read all of this, I'm really thankful. I gave it my all in doing this post. I have spent a LOT of time (ever since I got the game about 2 months ago, he has been my number 1 main) with Little Mac and I have learned a lot of what he can do. So I really hope I was able to provide good, interesting and insightful information about Little Mac's game regarding the edge. I did my best as well to remain fair and look at it from a character design perspective rather than just someone who wants to get one of the characters they use get crazy buffs that might not be part of the original intention. Who knows? Maybe one day this buffs might actually happen!

Now I'm interested in what you think! Do you think that Little Mac's edge game needs a buff? Does any of the mentioned problems really impact his potential? Are the buffs that I proposed fair, true to the character and necessary? What Kind of Buffs would you add to make it better?

Leave your thoughts below and once again, Thank you very much for reading this!

Edit: P.S. Wow! Over 100 people have watched this thread! I hope that this thread has been useful for all of you!

Edit 2: T-T-T-T Tw-Tw- 200 Views?!?!? (Mind explodes) I never expected to attract that many people to this thread!!! Thank you very much!!!

Edit 3: *Mlg horns start sounding in the background* 300 views for this thread?!?! *MLG horns start sounding again, louder this time* I really can't stop saying how grateful I am that over 300 people have bothered to look at this thread. So as a small celebration, I decided to look at the changes once more and see how can I make the changes better and a bit more accurate.

 

[jet56]

well thought out post. hmm, mac is in need of some slight buffs, but their might not be some things you are aware of.
little mac can do a "roll boosted grab" which means he rolls, then grabs immediatly after. im not sure if you actually know of the tech, but it doubles his grab range, and can punish shielders, since it also comes out faster than a dash grab (which means spot dodge on reaction is much harder).

also, P pivot smashes and P pivot tilts are also solid spacing tools for getting away and close to the opponent. also, most of the options mac has are much better against non tether grabbers, as he can just hover outside the grab range. regarding tether grabbers, the start-up on their grab is absurdly slow, so spot dodging and punishing is very viable.you can also jump into them (yes jump, i said it) which will either:
1. scare them into shield, which is a grab.
2. force them to grab or attack, which you can then shield or dodge

more often than not, they'll shield when you jump in the first time. you can even do it more than once, and when they stop using shield, you can nair them, and go for a nair to jab to dtilt combo.

 

[inconspikuous]

^this. or if you know they're going to spotdodge, you could always pivot grab, which will beat the spotdodge. really, the most risky thing about tether grabbers is that you have to 'get in'. the problem is that link has boomerangs, bombs, and arrows to keep you away from far, a disjointed sword with a pretty fast jab1 (which can out-footsie-space you as you approach), and then if/when you get past the sword (e.g. by shielding) but are still too far to grab/jab1, the tether will catch you.

like jet said, you could jump in, but against a good link player you will eat ftilt/utilt/usmash/jab combo/bomb/fair/nair before you get in range or land. the most 'reward' is with mac's spotdodge as you're getting in if you manage to read the grab (which is probably 2x as difficult online due to input lag etc.), but if you read wrong, you're going to eat a jab combo or worse. online, often a crossup roll-behind will work better than the spotdodge, but be very sure you don't get predictable with it or you'll get bodied.

so what do i do? usually i wait for them to get impatient by power shielding everything. you really don't have to approach if you get the percentage/stock lead, and you can just wait for them to mess up. if i read them using the arrows, that's a free sideB (just space correctly, and watch out for the boomerang coming back which will carry you to your gentle death). if they're not that good, i can jump in or spotdodge. all the edge game buffs that you're suggesting are only really necessary when you're behind.

BUT if i had to make one change, i'd make nair a sex kick that does 1% but flinches opponents like a jab.

 

[Gavi1195]

well thought out post. hmm, mac is in need of some slight buffs, but their might not be some things you are aware of.
little mac can do a "roll boosted grab" which means he rolls, then grabs immediatly after. im not sure if you actually know of the tech, but it doubles his grab range, and can punish shielders, since it also comes out faster than a dash grab (which means spot dodge on reaction is much harder).

I did hear of this technique before, but only once during a tournament match. I just tried it a few hours ago. My thoughts on this particular tech is the following:
It's pretty cool and can be useful, but it's a hard tech to master. You REALLY need to get used to it and I'm more likely to go for the dash grab then this tech grab. Not saying it's a bad option, but unless you dedicate yourself to learning this tricky tech, it unfortunately won't help as much as it could.

so what do i do? usually i wait for them to get impatient by power shielding everything. you really don't have to approach if you get the percentage/stock lead, and you can just wait for them to mess up.

I really wish that was always the case. I think you have forgotten a small factor important in this game. Decision. The opponent can choose to just stay near the edge forever, regardless of Percentage/Stock. Even if they don't have projectiles. Not saying that everyone does this, but when you find that person that does, you quickly notice how stale and boring the match quickly gets.
(And debatably, How the match just suddenly turns against Mac's favor. Not because of skill, combos or mind games. But by just staying near the place where you spawn near the match. No level of skill is necessary to instantly put Mac at this kind of disadvantage).

I once faced a Lucas that all he did was go to the edge and use PK fire, PK Freeze and grab the WHOLE match. The only time he ever left was when a PK freeze hit me when I was starting the music I was hearing again. (I managed to defeat him, but it took me a lot of risks and constantly trying to create/search for openings to punish him, while he just stood there calmly spamming and going for Back throws and trying to gimp me when he got the throw, knowing full well that he could afford more mistakes than me. Can you really think of one other character you would ever dare to do that the whole match against?)

 

[inconspikuous]

I really wish that was always the case. I think you have forgotten a small factor important in this game. Decision. The opponent can choose to just stay near the edge forever, regardless of Percentage/Stock. Even if they don't have projectiles. Not saying that everyone does this, but when you find that person that does, you quickly notice how stale and boring the match quickly gets.
(And debatably, How the match just suddenly turns against Mac's favor. Not because of skill, combos or mind games. But by just staying near the place where you spawn near the match. No level of skill is necessary to instantly put Mac at this kind of disadvantage).

I once faced a Lucas that all he did was go to the edge and use PK fire, PK Freeze and grab the WHOLE match. The only time he ever left was when a PK freeze hit me when I was starting the music I was hearing again. (I managed to defeat him, but it took me a lot of risks and constantly trying to create/search for openings to punish him, while he just stood there calmly spamming and going for Back throws and trying to gimp me when he got the throw, knowing full well that he could afford more mistakes than me. Can you really think of one other character you would ever dare to do that the whole match against?)

i mean, decision goes both ways. i can choose to stay out of range of lucas's projectiles on the other corner. if you have the percentage/stock lead (in a tourney setting) you win if they don't approach. it's one of the only ways to fight against custom-camp-villager. and stale/boring isn't really a 'factor' if you're 'playing to win'. do i like playing like that? of course not. but if you want to win you play the way that gives you the best chance to win.

i disagree that the match suddenly turns against mac's favour if they go there. you _want_ the opponent by the edge because it's a dangerous position to be in. their options are limited, and you know what they're going for. it's a good situation for mac. what you don't want is to get read and back thrown. so don't get read, thrown back, and gimped. easier said than done, i agree, but i think the more dangerous opponents aren't the ones that camp the ledge. they're the ones that know how to carry you off the ledge from the center of the stage -- that's way more scary than someone who is going for a back throw. if they caught you with a back throw to gimp, you messed up. just like if they get caught with a dtilt to ko, they messed up.

 

[Gavi1195]

i mean, decision goes both ways. i can choose to stay out of range of lucas's projectiles on the other corner. if you have the percentage/stock lead (in a tourney setting) you win if they don't approach. it's one of the only ways to fight against custom-camp-villager. and stale/boring isn't really a 'factor' if you're 'playing to win'. do i like playing like that? of course not. but if you want to win you play the way that gives you the best chance to win.

i disagree that the match suddenly turns against mac's favour if they go there. you _want_ the opponent by the edge because it's a dangerous position to be in. their options are limited, and you know what they're going for. it's a good situation for mac. what you don't want is to get read and back thrown. so don't get read, thrown back, and gimped. easier said than done, i agree, but i think the more dangerous opponents aren't the ones that camp the ledge. they're the ones that know how to carry you off the ledge from the center of the stage -- that's way more scary than someone who is going for a back throw. if they caught you with a back throw to gimp, you messed up. just like if they get caught with a dtilt to ko, they messed up.

I agree with you. One small thing though, your correct that in a tournament, Percentage/Stock dissuade camping. However, that is a different story in For Glory (To be a bit more clear, this on LM matchups I'm making this statement of). I understand that if winning is your only goal, you will do what you have to do, but that is not really an argument to overlook such a strategy. (At least in my opinion) It's a bit like saying that I wanted to win a race very badly and I decided to trip my competition on purpose during the race so I can pass them while they are on the ground in pain. You can understand why it was done, but that doesn't make the tripping justifiable or fair.