Little Mac Poll - What type is he ?

[Vastforce]

I'm having quite the debate with a friend of mine, he has an emotional attachment to Little Mac and Smash 4. He takes an enormous amount of pride when playing Little Mac. One day, we got competitive and intense, I started wrecking him in all of our friendlies and he got mad, then took Little Mac, he did the typical Little Mac tactics and won. I know how to beat his Mac but it is a major tactic / mental change for me, I didn't make that change, so that's on me, no problem.

My next move was that I then selected Little Mac, to prove a point: For casual players like us, someone can pick up Little Mac pretty fast and win, especially against another Little Mac. I ended up winning, beating him at his own game with his own character. That was my point, I can pick up Mac (whom I never used before) and beat your Mac (Who you used for a year +). A casual player can pick up Mac and beat other casual players as well.

Little Mac is an extreme type of character, he is one-dimensional. He has amazing priority on the ground, weak in the air, etc etc etc, we all know. But my friend here will absolutely not agree with this, now in the normal world, we agree to disagree our opinions and move on but he won't move on. He won't play Mac dittos anymore, hell he wont even play Smash with me anymore, saying that I suck etc.

I told him, let's do First to 5, Mac vs Mac, but he claims he's too nervous and scared to, so I am left to make a poll, please give me your honest answers.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

Dittos dont show skill, especially mac dittos.
Its pointless to base opinion of a character on a ditto like this.
On a casual level you can pick a heavy hitter like bowser or dedede and win by getting a lucky fsmash in.
Does that show a complete lack of skill in order to win? No.

You still need to put in a lot of effort to develop a heavy hitting character well.
Mac's power is counterbalanced by many things, which means he isnt an easy character.
He is just a complex character in a different way than most of the smash 4 cast.

 

[Vastforce]

Hey Tom,

Thanks for the reply, yes I definitely agree that Mac Dittos don't show skill at all, that was my point in taking Mac vs Mac with him. I knew that if I did that, no skill would be required what so ever and I would be able to win. I'd say it's more of a battle of wits.

Mac is one-dimensional in my opinion, hence the poll.

He claims that he's too nervous to play me first to 5, Mac vs Mac. Being that there is no skill involved, which supports my opinion, he is still to afraid to do it, which I don't understand.

The mental aspect of Smash is also a big part of winning and losing, skill aside, if he can't play me in a Mac ditto, he's got some mental issues to get over, that obvious. He'll run into another Mac ditto one day because he wants to get better, so playing Mac ditto's should help him get over his fear, it's part of growing as a player.

 

[jet56]

Wall of text incoming:

First what do you base as "easy"? Easy to win with, easy to use, easy to master? your definition of easy must be taken into consideration before we move on.

Is he easy to win with? Yes, at a very low level of play. Most bad or casual players will not know how to deal with little mac and his ridiculous ground game, super armor smashes, and insane killing power. However, at mid to high levels of play, his weaknesses (worst recovery, terrible landing options, etc.)are easily exploited, and if a mac main is not adept or skilled enough, will lose all the time. I think if you look a little into it, you will find little mac is not a successful or even highly used character at a competitive and professional level.

Is he easy to use? Yes. It takes very little to pick him up and play him at the same level as MOST other mac mains (that capped word is important, we'll get to it later) Which is why you see a very similar skill pool of mac mains at tourneys, online, and so on. It doesn't take a lot to use him at a core level.

Is he easy to Master? NO. NO NO NO NO NO. Let's set the bar here real quick. Do you know the terms:
Perfect Pivoting
Jump Cancel
Dash Cancel/Dancing
Quick step/momentum pivot
Turnaround tilts
Roll Boosted grabs
and so on?

If yes, great. If not, then i'll keep it short. These are advanced techs, all of which mac mains MUST use to elevate their game to a high level and in order to compete at top level play. This isn't to say you can't be succesful without them, but lets say this:
Little mac is the one character in the game where you have to put the most work into, in order to get the most reward. Mac rewards the player for dedication and practice to the character, the better and more efficient you become with mac, the better Little mac as a character becomes.

Little mac is the epitimy of a Glass Cannon. The difference being that "glass" becomes much more difficult to shatter the more time you put into the character. You want to know why Little macs haven't seen success at a high level? Because too many people who played mac or tried, dropped the character or gave up before tapping into the characters full potential. Which is also why use can't find the actual legit good mac mains, because they are covered up by the fodder mac mains that just picked up the character or play him as a pocket or on the side. that capped word i used earlier relates to this "MOST".

Is little mac One-dimensional? Well, what is your definition of one dimensional? Is he only a ground fighter? then yes, technically that is one dimensional (although, he does have some interesting air combos, so even that is not entirely true.)
Do you mean he is only played, or best played in one kind of way, or in a simplistic nature? No, this is dead wrong. Look up:

Solreth
J.A.P.A.N
Alphicans
Destany
Vash
Senpai (shameless plug)

look at these top macs and their different styles. Do they all play the same way? do they even use the same move set in the same scenario, or have a basic pattern of play they all follow?

My opinion, and the opinion of most mac mains:

Little mac is a underutilized character, with a glass cannon mentality, that is overlooked because the playerbase in general views mac as an easy to use character that does not garner much success, due to his Obvious weakness and simplistic style of play. Most players haven't looked past the "veil" of little macs design to actually see the Limitless potential little mac has.

As a last gift, ill leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_V_PXG8m-k

 

[smashfan1122]

Well, I can tell you guys that at casual/mid levels, MAC isn't easy to deal with because of his ridiculous priority, no other character has that priority on the ground and unless the stage has platforms, MAC is at a full advantage.

my 2 cents....

 

[Vastforce]

Hey Jet,

First, thank you for taking the time out of your day to reply, it's appreciated.

Yes, I meant if he is easy to use like you explained, "Yes. It takes very little to pick him up and play him at the same level as MOST other MAC mains." Which is exactly what happened between my friend and I.

Understandably so, there will be those other MAC mains that will be on another level beyond the regular mains, but I don't consider my friend to be since I won against him several times, without even trying that much to be honest.

In no way did I think he was easy to master, I don't think anyone is easy to master, it really depends on the player and how much potential they can bring out of the character.

My point was the statement you mentioned above, on my level and my friends level, it applies to us.

Yes, I meant MAC being one-dimensional in the sense that a fight on the ground with him puts you at a disadvantage at the low and even mid levels of the this game, yes I can get MAC up in the air, but a well timed counter will defeat the air game in many cases, again that's up to the players.

Loved the video you showed, awesome, makes me want to pick up MAC and invest time into him, basically, just don't get hit, which is an extreme type of tactic, but matches my style of play.

Thank you for your input.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

Hey Tom,

Thanks for the reply, yes I definitely agree that Mac Dittos don't show skill at all, that was my point in taking Mac vs Mac with him. I knew that if I did that, no skill would be required what so ever and I would be able to win. I'd say it's more of a battle of wits.

That's not what you have the poll for though, the poll is about mac as a character, not the ditto.
The ditto is mostly based on luck, not on skill, hence why the ditto is a bad way to explain why mac is a one-dimensional character.
It's not a battle of wits either, because the ditto basically revolves around whose super-armor activates a split-second later when smash attacks collide, causing one of the two macs to get launched and then edgeguarded with a Dsmash.

Just because this strategy works in a Little Mac ditto, doesn't mean Mac is a one-dimensional character because you'll get bodied if you try this against other characters who have ways to return to the stage and can punish whiffed smash attacks.

He claims that he's too nervous to play me first to 5, Mac vs Mac. Being that there is no skill involved, which supports my opinion, he is still to afraid to do it, which I don't understand.

He is scared because you'll think mac is easy because you only get to see a VERY specific playstyle in a mac ditto and he won't get to use Mac's full arsenal and skillset.
Even the most experienced Little Mac players consider the ditto to be a giant game of luck.
Whoever gets a silly lucky Dsmash in, basically wins a stock.
Mac is pretty much a 100:0 counter to himself.

The mental aspect of Smash is also a big part of winning and losing, skill aside, if he can't play me in a Mac ditto, he's got some mental issues to get over, that obvious. He'll run into another Mac ditto one day because he wants to get better, so playing Mac ditto's should help him get over his fear, it's part of growing as a player.

I don't even know where to begin to address this giant flawed statement.
Let's give this a try regardless..

1. saying somebody has mental issues for any reason is messed up.
2. saying somebody has mental issues because he doesn't like luck being a factor to take into account when playing his favorite character is downright silly.
3. Yes, he will run into a Mac ditto at some point but there can be three options:
A) He organically learns from the experience because he has no choice ( he has one now, as he can decline )
B) He develops/ chooses a secondary character to deal with the Little Mac matchup so he doesn't have to deal with a luck-based ditto, or..
C) His Little Mac has improved by then, causing the skill gap to be so significant that he has no reason to fear the ditto.

I consider myself a decent Little Mac player, not good, but decent enough to have him as my main.
However, I still prefer to go Kirby whenever somebody picks Little Mac to play against me because there's always the risk of them going full Leroy Jenkins on me and somehow getting that random lucky Dsmash/ Fsmash in and somehow winning.

TL;DR:

No, you're wrong.

 

[Vastforce]

That's not what you have the poll for though, the poll is about mac as a character, not the ditto.
The ditto is mostly based on luck, not on skill, hence why the ditto is a bad way to explain why mac is a one-dimensional character.
It's not a battle of wits either, because the ditto basically revolves around whose super-armor activates a split-second later when smash attacks collide, causing one of the two macs to get launched and then edgeguarded with a Dsmash.

Just because this strategy works in a Little Mac ditto, doesn't mean Mac is a one-dimensional character because you'll get bodied if you try this against other characters who have ways to return to the stage and can punish whiffed smash attacks.




He is scared because you'll think mac is easy because you only get to see a VERY specific playstyle in a mac ditto and he won't get to use Mac's full arsenal and skillset.
Even the most experienced Little Mac players consider the ditto to be a giant game of luck.
Whoever gets a silly lucky Dsmash in, basically wins a stock.
Mac is pretty much a 100:0 counter to himself.



I don't even know where to begin to address this giant flawed statement.
Let's give this a try regardless..

1. saying somebody has mental issues for any reason is messed up.
2. saying somebody has mental issues because he doesn't like luck being a factor to take into account when playing his favorite character is downright silly.
3. Yes, he will run into a Mac ditto at some point but there can be three options:
A) He organically learns from the experience because he has no choice ( he has one now, as he can decline )
B) He develops/ chooses a secondary character to deal with the Little Mac matchup so he doesn't have to deal with a luck-based ditto, or..
C) His Little Mac has improved by then, causing the skill gap to be so significant that he has no reason to fear the ditto.

I consider myself a decent Little Mac player, not good, but decent enough to have him as my main.
However, I still prefer to go Kirby whenever somebody picks Little Mac to play against me because there's always the risk of them going full Leroy Jenkins on me and somehow getting that random lucky Dsmash/ Fsmash in and somehow winning.

TL;DR:

No, you're wrong.

Whoa whoa whoa, didn't mean to offend with the "mental issues" comment, I meant mental issues like he has mental game issues play smash against me, not mentally ill. He's a friend of mine, I wouldn't do him like that.

I read it all BTW =)

Thank you for your input, I'll be sure to show him.