Little Mac In 1.1.4

[Rekzius]

I making this thread so we can compile all info we have about Mac in this new patch.
Here are all the changes as of now:

• Fsmash (No charge) 19 -> 20
• F-smash Up angle (No charge) 19 -> 20
• Fsmash Down angle (No charge) 22 -> 24
  
• Usmash (No charge) Damage: 20 -> 21
• Dsmash Damage: 12 -> 13
• Up-tilt First active frame 5 -> 4
• Up-tilt Has one more active frame 6 -> 7
• Up-tilt Angle: 85 -> 88
• All smashes have slightly reduced knockback ( This is to compesate for the damage buffs, but It still kills earlier)

( If you wonder why this does not match the 1.1.4 patch thread, it is because it is not uptdated yet. All of this has been tested on an unpatched 3ds verson)

Its not much, but better than nothing. (Edit: After morer testing this is a lot better than i thought)

Raw damage is good, but not really a game changer. ( I still stand by this, but later we discoverd that there was more to this patch than just damage)

D-smash angle change might cause it to kill a bit earlier (I am not sure,tho) (This is false, there was no angle change)

I have no idea why they changed his dthrow and uthrow like that. From my testing there is still no combos of any of these, so it really confuses me why they did it. (This also is false, there was no angle change)

In any case, if any of you notice anything about mac in the new patch please share it here so we can discuss it.

 

[inconspikuous]

personally can't complain about any buff. lol. remember that raw damage also increases shieldstun. assuming the shieldstun formula hasn't changed, mac got an extra frame or two of shieldstun on some of his moves:

Move = Damage / Frames of Shieldstun / Frames of Endlag / Frames of Disadvantage before Shield Drop which would be +7 (bracketed numbers are the 'best' possible result if only the last active hitbox connects.)

UA-FSmash = 20 or 21/ 13 or 14 / 28-29 / -15 (-14)
DA-FSmash = 24 / 15 / 28 / -13
Usmash sweetspot? = 21 / 14 / 37 / -23 (-22)
Usmash sourspot? = 16 / 11 / 32-37 / -26 (-21)
Dsmash1 = 13 / 9 / 31-32 / -23 (-22)
Dsmash2 = 13 / 9 / 24-25 / -16 (-15)​

 

[NarayanK]

I'd like to point out that damage buffs indirectly buffs Little Mac's shield pressure, which is still a nice addition to his pretty beast ground game.

-Someone said that Little Mac's Forward-Down Smash (uncharged) went from 22 to 24.

-From what I know, D-Throw is a bit more annoying for fast fallers because he can connect nearly anything early-game including his KO Punch (and an up-air, but that's probably only going to show up on a subpar For Glory montage). It also makes a run- up-smash combo/string to connect better in both (respectively) early game and mid game. Dunno about lighter characters, though.

-D-Smash's angle will let people live more (nerf), but buffed damage (buff) kind of makes up for it. It's a weird tradeback. If you manage to land both D-Smash in certain instances though (ie. someone is right next to you), you'll be dealing 2% more damage because the backside of D-Smash had its damage buffed as well.

 

[Rekzius]

I'd like to point out that damage buffs indirectly buffs Little Mac's shield pressure, which is still a nice addition to his pretty beast ground game.

-Someone said that Little Mac's Forward-Down Smash (uncharged) went from 22 to 24.

-From what I know, D-Throw is a bit more annoying for fast fallers because he can connect nearly anything early-game including his KO Punch (and an up-air, but that's probably only going to show up on a subpar For Glory montage). It also makes a run- up-smash combo/string to connect better in both (respectively) early game and mid game. Dunno about lighter characters, though.

-D-Smash's angle will let people live more (nerf), but buffed damage (buff) kind of makes up for it. It's a weird tradeback. If you manage to land both D-Smash in certain instances though (ie. someone is right next to you), you'll be dealing 2% more damage because the backside of D-Smash had its damage buffed as well.

I feel like the new angle might be a bit better, 45 is like straight to the right or left. While 30 is a bit better for gimping people i feel like 45 might be better for killing.

 

[NarayanK]

I feel like the new angle might be a bit better, 45 is like straight to the right or left. While 30 is a bit better for gimping people i feel like 45 might be better for killing.

Hm. You might be right actually.

If that's the case, I'll be pretty happy. Mac's ledgeguard needs to secure more kills than it does atm.

 

[justimonEX]

Does downthrow have any combo or mix up potential? I don't really understand if it does.

 

[Rekzius]

Hm. You might be right actually.

If that's the case, I'll be pretty happy. Mac's ledgeguard needs to secure more kills than it does atm.

OK, i tested it on my unpatched 3ds and i can confirm that it kills earlier. I tested it on lucario at the ledge on FD at 100% and it killed only on the new patch.

 

[Rekzius]

Does downthrow have any combo or mix up potential? I don't really understand if it does.

It has none, like i said it now launches you further away than before, it still combos into up-b if they DI inn tho. which people have a tendesy to do on the legde.

Also the patch data is a little off
I tested it right now and it is actualy:
Fsmash (No charge) 19-20
F-smash Upp angle (No charge) 19-20
Fsmash Down angle (No charge) 22-24 The down angle is actualy 2% stronger!

 

[BSP]

Remember that +1% damage done translates to killing roughly 10% earlier. This won't shoot Mac up, but I'm sure people will feel dying faster.

 

[TacTac]

Does anyone have a reference sheet for the percent that Mac's smash attacks KO'd at before this patch?

I am attempting to use /u/OneNineFour's formula to calculate the difference, which would appear to be huge. Up-angled fsmash might KO more than 20% earlier than before. Unfortunately I updated my 3DS and Wii U at the same time so I can't compare results.

 

[Rekzius]

Does anyone have a reference sheet for the percent that Mac's smash attacks KO'd at before this patch?

I am attempting to use /u/OneNineFour's formula to calculate the difference, which would appear to be huge. Up-angled fsmash might KO more than 20% earlier than before. Unfortunately I updated my 3DS and Wii U at the same time so I can't compare results.

I just tested it and it kills 8% earlier. I tested it on villager on FD. He used to live til 99% but now he dies at 91%. (without DI)
And F-smash kills 6% earlier. (Mid stage without DI)

 

[TacTac]

Ah, thank you for testing. I must have misinterpreted the formula to think it would make such a huge difference. 6% to 8% earlier KOs make this a very solid buff though!

This probably makes the buffed smash attacks better shield break punishes as well, hm? I wonder at what percent this makes them better options than a full charge Straight Lunge...

 

[Ffamran]

Fsmash Down angle (No charge) 22-24 The down angle is actualy 2% stronger!

Considering that shield health is ~46% not 50%, 2 angled down Down Smashes, body hooks, will be doing around 48% on-shield. Before, 2 body hooks would only do 44% meaning Little Mac would have to do 3 for 66%. Basically, breaking shields should be way easier for Little Mac now if not more threatening.

 

[jet56]

Considering that shield health is ~46% not 50%, 2 angled down Down Smashes, body hooks, will be doing around 48% on-shield. Before, 2 body hooks would only do 44% meaning Little Mac would have to do 3 for 66%. Basically, breaking shields should be way easier for Little Mac now if not more threatening.

actually, shields have 42 hp. a jab>dtilt>DAFsmash will break a shield everytime now. and DAFsmash has additional shield damage as well, as a full charged DAFsmash will do 40 shield damage. basically, if they only have 70% of their shield, you can break it with a DAFsmash no charge. also, a fresh dtilt>DAFsmash (meaning they haven't been used at all that match yet) will break a shield as well.

i love the buffs, especially the DAFsmash buff. cause a fresh DAFsmash does 25%, which is absurd, as it can easily string into dtilt.

and DAFsmash is stupid safe on shield when spaced now. that is awesome.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Down Angled Forward Smash into dashing Up Smash if the opponent doesn't react. 45 Damage if these two connect. Or you can just read a getup/tech/jump out and punish that way.



Tested Down Throw into KO Punch in Training vs a Level 9 AI for several of the weight categories just to see when it would connect with some... Uh, interesting results. They probably can attempt to jump out at earlier percents or airdodge, but you can probably read that now.

[Fastfallers] VS it connects at a maximum of 24% but KILLS at 6%. Which is goddamn ridiculous.

[Lightweights] VS it connects at, uh, maximum of 0... Its weird for at least Kirby. They must have absolutely NO reaction whatsoever and you must pause between inputting Down Throw and KO Punch in order for it to connect. Kills at around 5%.

[Midweights] VS it connects at a maximum of 7%. Afterwards, you've gotta wait a second like you do with the Lightweights, which can just be an airdodge read. If they don't react, it kills as early as 12%.

[Heavyweight] VS it connects at a maximum of 13% and starts killing around 16%. Connects a bit later with moderate DI.


So from what that is telling me, getting off a down tilt, dashing up then grabbing, pummeling once, then down throw into KO Punch works against pretty much all of the cast if you take the first game. Pretty damn good. But this doesn't factor RAGE, so they will connect at earlier percents based on rage and DI, but think of it as a double edged sword in the fact that KO Punch also kills earlier. Just initial feelings.

NOTE: I'm not gonna go back and edit the rest of that, because I'm a lazy mfer, but turns out they CAN DI out of it at earlier percents. Fast Fallers, uhm, they have a worse issues actually.


I'm very happy about the Smash attack damage/shieldstun increases due to that change. Issue is that now spammers on FG get even stronger due to this change, but that doesn't really matter n_n


This patch has officially redeemed my thinkings of Mac (Who I've kinda stopped using for a while due to a lack of being good n' stuff) and I'm gonna be going back to using good 'ol Mac once again. Especially now that there are some cheeky BayoCorrin scrubs roaming around. Thanks daddy Sakurai for blessing us :D

 

[inconspikuous]

pre-patch 0% dtilt>dthrow>ko punch vs mac (ditto) was a true combo.

 

[Rekzius]

Also a thing to note is that with the new angle on d-throw, it is now a lot safer to go for d-throw to up-b on the ledge. A lot of people DI inn when on the ledge, before you could be punished if they DI`ed away, but now they might go to far. Making it always safe to go for.

 

[inconspikuous]

so according to one guy's analysis of the data dump:

Little mac's ACMD changes.

1. U-tilt: hitbox now comes out frame 4 from 5, and is out for 7 frames from 6. Angle was also changed from 0x55 -> 0x58
2. F-smash (angled up): sweetspot damage 19% - > 20%, Knockback growth reduced from 85 - > 81. Sourspot damage 17% - > 18%, knockback reduced from 85 - > 81
3. F-smash (standard): Same as above with base knockback for sweetspot and and sourspot increased from 30 -> 31
4. F-smash (angled down): Both hitboxes damage from 22% -> 24% and knockback growth decreased from 22 - > 21
5. U-smash (standard): Sweetspot damage increased 20% -> 21%, Knockback growth decreased 80 - > 76, sourspots damage increased 15% -> 16%, knockback growth reduced 100 - > 96
6. D-smash (standard): All hitboxes damage increased 12% -> 13%, knockback growth decreased 100 -> 94

a few of these are already in the patch notes, but a few aren't so i figured i'd just post all his changes.

One bothersome thing though, the patch notes say there were angle changes to d-smash, uthrow and dthrow, but i don't see these changes in my dumps? Dsmash's angle is still 30 for example.

utilt got buffed!!! frame 4 and active hitbox is 7 frames. i think that's huge, tbh.

PLACEBO: mac really feels a lot more solid post-patch. it's awesome to actually get some love from the dev team.

 

[Lag Chan]

I am loving these buffs, even if his grab range is still awful having more viable throw options is fantastic. Even better are the smash attack changes, solves one of Mac's biggest weaknesses about how he struggled so much against defensive play. Being able to so easily shield break now is going to make people have to think more about how they deal with Mac's attacks, plus the mind games factor in how it's going to make players scared to shield against him. Excellent buffs all around.

Also video I just uploaded, uncharged forward smash breaking a shield at roughly 50% size.
https://youtu.be/rTXzjI7Hx9E?t=1m7s

 

[Zodiacx10]

Yea, im loving these buffs too. Thank you Sakurai :D

 

[Rekzius]

There was som misinformation about mac`s buffs. He did not get an angle change on his throws, neither did he get an angle change on his d-smash. I was away for a few days and could not fix it, sorry about that. I have changed it to correspond with the patch notes by now.

 

[6FinalFlame6]

There was som misinformation about mac`s buffs. He did not get an angle change on his throws, neither did he get an angle change on his d-smash. I was away for a few days and could not fix it, sorry about that. I have changed it to correspond with the patch notes by now.

So does that mean that it can still be used to cover ledge on the 2 frame?

 

[Rekzius]

So does that mean that it can still be used to cover ledge on the 2 frame?

It was not an angle change in terms of hit boxes, it "was" a launch angle change. Meaning that it would kill the later than before. we don`t normaly use angles when talking about hit boxes. but yes you can still do that, seeing how none of his hit boxes were changed.

 

[Rekzius]

Can anyone test if up-tilt combos into jump cancel up-b after the patch? It might because of the angle change. Why else would they change it? I would do it myself, but i have nobody to do the DI`ing. I̶ ̶t̶r̶i̶e̶d̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶f̶e̶e̶t̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶.̶

 

[LRodC]

So Little Mac mains, what do you think of these buffs? Are they mostly negligible, or do you think they'll actually affect his viability?

 

[Rekzius]

So Little Mac mains, what do you think of these buffs? Are they mostly negligible, or do you think they'll actually affect his viability?

While the buffs definitely are good, i don`t really think they are that big of a game changer. All that is diffrent that before is that he hits a little harder and his up-tilt is a little faster. This does make all his smashes safer on shield, which is always nice, but his bad matchups are still realy bad regarless of how hard he hits. He is stronger in the new patch, but not by that much.

 

[LRodC]

While the buffs definitely are good, i don`t really think they are that big of a game changer. All that is diffrent that before is that he hits a little harder and his up-tilt is a little faster. This does make all his smashes safer on shield, which is always nice, but his bad matchups are still really bad regarless of how hard he hits. He is stronger in the new patch, but not by that much.

That's what I figured. Still though, minor buffs are better than none, and with Little Mac's design philosophy, I think it's impossible to not have bad match ups.

I'm thinking of trying out Mac as a secondary for Mewtwo.

 

[Lufos]

I feel that the new angle on U-Tilt is actually a pretty big change. It might seem small but I feel like it's a more viable combo starter now, and can help rack up some good damage if you can perfect pivot. Also it seems like it might true combo into upp B kills at certain %s and characters... Not sure if it did that before?

EDIT:
Just to clarify, when I said it's more viable as a combo starter I meant the spaced ending hit of the U-Tilt, which is generally considered pretty safe on shield as well so that's good.

 

[AxelVDP]

FRESH down angled fsmash is now 2 frames safer than before (it's -5 on shield drop, -6 if not fresh but still not quite stale) (for comparison, pre-patch that move was -7 on shield drop)
the added power also means that it has slightly more pushback when blocked, rendering that move even more safe (also, 1 down angled fsmash eats like 60% -24/41- of a healthy shield, that's pretty insane)

thanks to the added extra late hitbox on utilt, that move is also 1 frame safer when properly spaced (it also hits crouching opponents now)
the new angle also makes it a much more potent juggling tool, because now the enemy has less room to DI away and you can follow him more easily
(and yes, it CAN combo into our upB even at high%s, but never at kill%s unless you're on some kind of platform or something, I would not suggest it though, better stick with down tilt for that kind of stuff)

the added dammage on the other 2 variations of fsmash does not give them extra safety on shield, but it makes so that even when staled it does not get as unsafe as before

so yeah... that's about it