I searched throughout the Melee Link Boards, and we don't really have a MU thread like the other boards do/are creating. Sure, we have some threads discussing on certain MUs, but there isn't one on discussing all of them. In regards to the MUs on the Link guide, it really should be expanded when we really agree on certain scenarios that Link can find himself in any MU and how to deal with it, and we should do this with all of them (to prevent being Unknowned). I'm not saying that we should stop discussing the higher MUs since they are more common. So I will create this thread to discuss, and important points in each matchup will be added eventually allowing us to even expand the guide in the future.
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Vs. Fox
Imo, Fox is Link's worst matchup by far. He can beat so many of you moves with crouch cancel until around 40 damage. This gives him an absurd advantage when he is at low damage. He outruns Link in every possible way and can combo off the lightest of attacks (dair / shine), even when they get crouch cancelled. Waveshine into smash moves is pretty brutal as well. Link has great combos on him, but they are tough to pull off compared to his combos, and dropping a combo with Link will give a much larger advantage to Fox than for Link when Fox drops a combo. His upward killing power also renders a lot of Link's survivability useless.
In this matchup, I try to stuff approaches with jabs and retreating fairs. Going to platforms and trying to abuse shield drop punishes seems to be pretty useful. Catching him out of the air with bombs and up-airs will usually lead to combos. The tough part in this matchup becomes precision. You can't afford to make a mistake or drop a combo, but the Fox player can basically be sloppy in comparison.
Coming from the Grab Punishes Thread:
0-16: down throw and hope for a tech chase. Up throw will not knock them down and I'm pretty sure they can just fall down and shine you.
17-35: up throw and then down smash. It is important to always hold up because if they don't DI, you have to up-tilt them instead. You might have to walk a bit towards them after the throw, but it is quite easy once you get the hang of it. If there is a platform above, it sets up the tech chase because it knocks them down.
36-50: up throw into dash attack/nair (or up-tilt when they don't DI). Then try to figure out what to do after the attack lands. I find the dash attack doesn't lead to anything if they DI it away, but it at least can put them on a platform or gain you a ton of stage control.
51-95: up throw into up air. You have to run before jumping and I think you short hop at the lower range and then you have to full jump at the higher range.
96-105: up throw into running full jump down air. If they don't DI, you have to full jump, double jump down air. This is a very solid killing combo on FD and pokemon stadium.
106-125: up throw into running double jump forward air. Double jump up air if they don't DI. This will at least launch them off stage for the edge guard, but this damage window tends to be worse than slightly above it or slightly below it.
126+: down throw into up-b. Make sure to turn around before you up-b if they DI behind you (at least when they are at lower damage). Link's up-b hits slower behind him and I think DIing behind him on the down throw makes them land a little sooner.
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Vs. Falco
Waaay overrated in Falco's favour. I think this is one of the better matchups for Link. Just like with Fox, Link has trouble starting anything when Falco is at low damage, but Falco's lack of horizontal speed allows Link to do so much more. Falco combos the hell out of Link, but he does that to everyone, pretty much. Link also combos the hell out of him (probably a little better than some other characters) and has very good edge guards against him. His limited range allows for the boomerang to intercept almost any way of recovering. Another thing that is very notable that no one else seems to notice is that Falco has a REAALLY hard time killing Link. If you DI correctly to avoid getting dumpstered, he has to basically smash you off the side with a bair or f-smash. He can't really stop your tether recovery, and he can't kill super well off the top, so it is a huge pain for him to kill you.
The way I typically play this matchup is sort of defensive. Go to platforms and pull out bombs and throw boomerangs down at Falco. He doesn't have a ton of things he can do from there. He'll probably do 1 of 3 main things - try to move across the stage under your platform (you can retreat to top platform or wait and do some sort of shield drop - maybe before he even gets under your platform), jump to the opposite platform to shoot lasers (you can advance against him by moving towards his platform on the ground), or going to the top platform (you can drop through your platform and pressure with bombs and potential up-airs). Other than that, it is the same sort of deal as with Fox where you become very threatening when they are at higher damage.
Falco will become an easier MU to deal with when you play it right. Try looking into Powershields and Light-Shield Powershields. Those can really mess up Falco bad since he pretty much is forced to approach with Lazers only, but when reflected now Link has an approach or punish option instead. Also, Link has the ability to combo Falco really well once started. Falco is pretty bad at recovering too, so gimping is an option as well.
Coming from the Grab Punishes Thread:
0-16: down throw and hope for a tech chase. Up throw will not knock them down and I'm pretty sure they can just fall down and shine you.
17-35: up throw and then down smash. It is important to always hold up because if they don't DI, you have to up-tilt them instead. You might have to walk a bit towards them after the throw, but it is quite easy once you get the hang of it. If there is a platform above, it sets up the tech chase because it knocks them down.
36-50: up throw into dash attack/nair (or up-tilt when they don't DI). Then try to figure out what to do after the attack lands. I find the dash attack doesn't lead to anything if they DI it away, but it at least can put them on a platform or gain you a ton of stage control.
51-95: up throw into up air. You have to run before jumping and I think you short hop at the lower range and then you have to full jump at the higher range.
96-105: up throw into running full jump down air. If they don't DI, you have to full jump, double jump down air. This is a very solid killing combo on FD and pokemon stadium.
106-125: up throw into running double jump forward air. Double jump up air if they don't DI. This will at least launch them off stage for the edge guard, but this damage window tends to be worse than slightly above it or slightly below it.
126+: down throw into up-b. Make sure to turn around before you up-b if they DI behind you (at least when they are at lower damage). Link's up-b hits slower behind him and I think DIing behind him on the down throw makes them land a little sooner.
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Vs. Marth
As for Marth I find he doesn't like his attacks to be shielded, especially his Smashes. He's highly punishable when his attacks are shielded. It could be just me, but that's what I've observed so far. I haven't had a Marth do insane shield pressure against me really.
Crouch cancel is even more of a pain for him. You can land free grabs, d-smashes, and up-b's. For me, I try to make it a pain for him to try to get in on my by abusing crouch cancel and throw things at him. Try not to go onto platforms or into the air too much. They main area of weakness is if they stick to the ground and pressure you with dash dancing and grabs. If the marth is staying on the ground all the time (to avoid all the dangers of jumping with him), then you can abuse raw grabs. If he's in the air, you basically crouch cancel punish or shield grab his dair (the main mixup, but he can also double jump away and stuff - but then that makes him very vulnerable since he could get into a bad juggle without his jump).
Coming from the Grab Punishes Thread:
0-5: down-throw into up-tilt (you have to turn around if they DI behind). After you land the up-tilt, you can either jab or crouch cancel. If they come down with a fair/nair, you get a free CC into regrab. The jab might cause them to stutter and give you a regrab, but it mostly just forces them to shield or be defensive. You can hold down during the jab to get a punish if they still try to attack you.
6-40: down-throw into up-tilt into up-air. A nice, juicy combo that leaves them in the air for potential further punishes.
41-95: down-throw into up-air. You don't get any more off of it directly, but they are way in the sky and you will have a bomb before they get back down.
96-105: down-throw into down-air. It is often instant death for these characters.
106+: down-throw into up-air. At around 135, it will just kill them outright. At some point, you have to dash in the direction they DI and then do the up-air. You don't need to full jump until stupidly high damage, so don't worry about that for the most part.
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Vs. Sheik
Sheik really isn't that bad. I find she doesn't have amazing approaches, so you don't get pressured very easily. You can also crouch cancel all of her aerials for quite a while. She hates being juggled and that is Link's best form of comboing. Her recovery is bad in that you can kill her basically by following a flow chart if she is off stage and at decent damage. She's a better than some characters for edge guarding Link, but still not amazing if you play it right. The chain grab is absolutely devastating, but so are your combos. It's a lot harder for them to land a grab on you than you might htink.
Against Shiek, I basically throw things and allow my opponent to try to approach me. Link can out spam Shieks needles because her needles have limited angles. She can't do a lot if she is in the air, so abusing shield drops is a good strategy at times. Overall, your plan is to get her into the air and keep here there with up-airs and bombs. The way to use bombs is allow her to fall beside you but out of range of any of her attacks (even further than that, actually) so that she basically cannot interact with you. Throw the bomb sideways so that she would land on it if your opponent did nothing. After you throw the bomb, always get in position to start up-airing her. Whether they jump, air dodge, up-b, whatever, everything is very susceptible to up-airs which resets the situation. At high enough damage, an up-air gives you enough time for another bomb.
To get her in the air, up-throw up-air works starting around 28 I think (untested, currently). CC down-smash/grab beats a lot of her stuff. The matchup isn't really that bad, only the chain grab is.
Coming from the Grab Punishes thread:
Note that these numbers are more rough since I haven't had the time to test them out thoroughly.
0-29: down-throw and tech chase. I don't know the exact percent - I would guess about 17% - but you can up throw for a tech chase on platforms. You should aim to tech chase with up-airs since they tack on a lot of damage and the sweetspot hit I don't think is crouch cancellable at this damage.
I'll have to experiment more, but I think up-throw up-tilt might connect or force a jump between 20 and 30 damage.
30-70: up-throw into up-air. You can also connect down-throw down-smash at almost exactly 30 damage, but having Shiek in the air is better. I feel like it is not a true combo a lot of the time, but the opportunity gained by having her in the air is pretty big.
There's a big overlap of things that connect from around 30 - 100. You can also do down-throw up-tilt for most or all of this percent range. I haven't mapped out what I think is the best to do, but up-throw up-air tends to be quite effective.
70-100: down-throw up-b seems to connect. I am not certain if they can DI to go as upwards as possible to escape, but I feel like they can. You may be able to connect a dair if they do that, though.
100+: down-throw up-air or nair. This will be dependent on how close they are to the ledge (nair if it will hit them directly off stage) and how low the ceiling is on the particular stage.
Anyway, I will add more to this later and hopefully make it a bit cleaner/accurate. I'll try to check in on this every once in a while.
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Vs. Jigglypuff
Jiggs: I am not sure, but it feels sort of even or slight advantage for probably us. Crouch cancel is very important, imo. It is probably the main factor that makes Link not terrible at the matchup compared to young Link. Link's recovery is also quite nice in this matchup, at least in my experience. Jiggs doesn't seem to have a super solid way to consistently kill you unless you are forced to recover in one particular way due to being too far away. She's still better at edge guarding us that Peach or Falco, though.
Overall, take your time in this matchup. Jiggs doesn't have a very good way to get in on us if we don't give them an opening. Jiggs also dies at rather low damage, so the slow, steady damage increase from projectiles actually puts quite a bit of pressure on them. I think you should ultimately just not "go for the kill". Just keep protecting yourself and only go for follow-ups on projectiles or when the Jiggs is in a spot you can hit safely (right above you or coming down with an aerial that won't hit you). Don't use up-b or grab unless you really know it will hit. Dair is a good kill move, but keep in mind that up-air strong hit will kill at quite low damage and down smash can even kill at reasonable damage. Nairing Jiggs off stage and spamming projectiles for damage is much more valuable in this matchup since the damage will lead you to kills very quickly. You also can't really hope to get a killing edge guard on Jiggs unless they mess up really badly.
Vertical movement is a nice way to get around Jiggs. Just don't get caught without your jump. With this in mind, I think FD is our worst stage for the matchup. Jumping over Jiggs and throwing a bomb down is usually quite good (especially when they're in the air). Keeping out of Jiggs' zones will make it really annoying for your opponent. Crouch cancel if you think you've messed up. There's not much they can do about it, and it will help protect you against low damage rest setups and early deaths.
Also as a general rule for this matchup, please look at Jigglypuff's frame data. The hitboxes on her up-air and bair are actually stupid.
Well in the case of puff, she's really just aerial oriented, so throwing angled boomerangs and other projectiles her way will make things a pain for her, it should be in Link's favor if I'm not mistaken.
Coming from Link's Q&A Thread:
If a Puff fsmashes my shield (and that happens a lot to me for some reason...), sometimes I punish with grabs, but other times with up+B. If they CC an up+B at like 100% and pushes them offstage, I'll often start charging an arrow, since Puff can't actually go that high [or if she does, release it and nair her back out so she has to rely on pound, which is punishable], and so if I can snipe well, it's a free 18%.
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Vs. Peach
Peach? Aside from the Grab Punishes advice, this MU is a slow slightly defensive one imo. Peach is on the slower side of high/top tiers, so Link can have an easier time zoning on her than on the spacies or Falcon. Her float does wonders for her in many situations, including in recovery. If you have a chance while in the position to edgeguard, look for an opportunity to get rid of her float since she can only regenerate it by touching the ground. She becomes limited in recovery options afterwards: You can easily edgehog her Up B, her double jump is slightly slow which gives the slight chance for a projectile, and her air dodge is not fast in recovering from. If she still has her float, she can recover from multiple areas fom high to low combined with the previous options. Her turnips are a nuisance to deal with if you allow for pressure to let up. Any good Peach is going to find an opportunity to pull a turnip to turn the tides. If she has a turnip, you can catch it to use against her, but Peach can keep this in mind as well so be careful. In terms of her projectiles: Turnip- What I just said, Stitchface- Be extra careful and you better be good at catching turnips here, Dot eye- The stitchface scenario to a lighter extent, Mr. Saturn- Like an annoying turnip but don't shield too much here or he will break it, Light Sword- Now she has both equal sword spacing to you and a projectile, watch what she does and respond accordingly whether it's catching it, jumping over, shielding, attacking it (I don't know which attacks specifically challenge it so I wouldn't recommend it), or grabbing her after using it, Bob-omb- Well there goes your stock if you don't avoid it (I can't remember at the moment if you have a window to catch it, but shielding is more likely a better option). If she doesn't have a projectile at all, she can try to dash attack, Float cancel aerials (most annoying part of the neutral game), or retreat to try to get one. I'm not completely sure of her other options in the neutral aside from this. When she is in the position to edgeguard you, keep in mind that she has all the time in the world to get projectiles, and she has her float to attack you if you get too close or don't sweet spot the ledge, so mixup your recovery to which one works to survive here. Since you fall semi fast, she can follow up grabs as well like she can other fast fallers, but at least she doesn't have a chain grab on you like on spacies. Since she is floaty, she also hates being juggled, so if you find a clear-cut opportunity to do so, do it to gain more percentage, but be sure to still keep stage control and have a good position to continue your zoning. Dair is a good way to kill her, so if you can use it as a followup when she's at or close to kill percent, exploit it. Up B is too risky of a move to use in this MU in comparison to others. Your aerials work the same way in this MU: Nair, Bair are spacing and combo tools, Dair is for killing, Uair is for juggling and killing, and Fair is for spacing and for putting her in a positional advantage. This is what I know of the matchup. Feel free to add on to this if I'm missing something or if I got something incorrect here.
Coming from the Grab Punishes Thread:
Link's Dthrow against Peach
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At 0%
1 Throw starts
1-8 Link is invincible
28 Peach is thrown
48 Link is actionable
55 Peach is actionable
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Link is +7 after the throw at 0%.
Utilt hits on frame 9 and turnaround Utilt takes an extra frame.
At 11%, Link is +8.
At 23%, Link is +9. Dthrow Utilt becomes a true combo.
At 25%, Link is +10. Dthrow turnaround Utilt becomes a true combo.
Peach's Nair hits on frame 3 and is her fastest option for preventing Dthrow Utilt.
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If Peach does not DI, Dthrow Utilt is inescapable at 0%.
If Peach DIs in front of Link, Dthrow Utilt is inescapable at 0%.
If Peach DIs all the way behind Link, her Nair will trade with turnaround Utilt at 0%, but her Nair will miss Link if he does regular Utilt (no turnaround) and she will get hit by the back of the Utilt swing.
If Peach DIs up and behind Link, she will trade with turnaround Utilt, and has the potential to trade with or beat regular Utilt. Depending on when she does her Nair, she may miss Link if he does regular Utilt.
ex.
Both characters are frame perfect: Link wins
Peach is frame perfect, but Link is late by 1 frame: Link wins
Peach is late by 1 frame, but Link is frame perfect: Peach wins
Both characters are late by 1 frame: Peach wins
Peach is frame perfect, but Link is late by 2 frames: Trade
Peach is late by 1 frame, and Link is late by 2 frames: Link wins
Peach is late by 2 frames, but Link is frame perfect:
Peach is late by 2 frames, and Link is late by 1 frame: Trade
Both characters are late by 2 frames: Peach wins: Trade
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Most options lose to a regular Utilt. The only one that doesn't is DI up and behind. Utilt may still be useful against this, but because of the risk, using C-stick to option select ASDI down may be useful.
After 11%, Dthrow turnaround Utilt is inescapable on both full DI behind and DI up and behind, but must be frame perfect until 23%.
Coming from the Grab Punishes Thread:
0-5: down-throw into up-tilt (you have to turn around if they DI behind). After you land the up-tilt, you can either jab or crouch cancel. If they come down with a fair/nair, you get a free CC into regrab. The jab might cause them to stutter and give you a regrab, but it mostly just forces them to shield or be defensive. You can hold down during the jab to get a punish if they still try to attack you.
6-40: down-throw into up-tilt into up-air. A nice, juicy combo that leaves them in the air for potential further punishes.
41-95: down-throw into up-air. You don't get any more off of it directly, but they are way in the sky and you will have a bomb before they get back down.
96-105: down-throw into down-air. It is often instant death for these characters.
106+: down-throw into up-air. At around 135, it will just kill them outright. At some point, you have to dash in the direction they DI and then do the up-air. You don't need to full jump until stupidly high damage, so don't worry about that for the most part.
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Vs. Ice Climbers
I play IC's often enough because one of the better players in Georgia is a 'Climbers main. I think the key to this matchup is really just camping. Grayson, the IC main, hates playing against my Link because bombs put in a ton of work against them. Platform camping is pretty easy even though their up-air is pretty solid, and keeping a bomb in your hand at almost all times puts a timer on how long they can wobble you (which I think has been mentioned before). Link also has really solid tools to keep the climbers separated if he can get in between them. Jabbing, nairing, and d-smashing all can be used to apply separation pressure, but be careful with d-smash against these guys because Popo will likely get a grab punish off on you if he shields it (dat wavedash).
One thing I've always found underrated is just how good up-B is against a recovering Nana. Her jump is so predictable that if she needs to use it to get back to the stage, you can very easily semi-spike her to death. This isn't something I'd recommend in an even game so much because wherever Popo is, he'll probably be able to grab you off of the up-B lag. However if you think taking his punish is worth the Nana kill, go for it, or do it to increase your momentum if you're already up a stock (Jiggs players do a similar thing when they rest Nana with a stock lead).
Icies are used a little bit more often but not by much (at least in comparison to the other high tiers and top tiers, even Samus). I've played against against a friend who has Icies as his best character, and I know a little bit more about this MU now. Both characters are defensive: one zones, the other punishes. Icies are very mobile on the ground in comparison to the air, so expect them to mostly be on the ground (Wavedash for Days). However, they can still use the air for approaches and followups (horizontally that is), this is not Samus floatiness, so don't sleep on them by just going into the air. You are right that Icies really benefit off of grabs: they can do handoffs, wobbling, smash attack to regrab, throw to smash attack, throw to jab to regrab, etc. Fortuneately the range of most of Icies moves is smaller than other characters, which includes their grab range. So, the Icies have to get close to grab you. You have quick aerials to push them back with Nair and Bair (preferably Nair). Icies have a hard time against a zoning Link, so create a wall that you can mixup and keep them out. Also, projectiles separate the two well, so if you separate them far enough, you can choose to go for either one to combo or kill. Sometimes you will want to kill Nana, probably on the player's last stock in order to prevent wobbling, but you need to pay attention to Popo since he is the one that is completely controlled by the player. One way that Icies approach is with desync freeze, so mostly stay out of the range of that move. Otherwise you will get grabbed. Fair, Dair, Nair, Uair, Up B, Fsmash, Dsmash can kill well in this MU, but you will be using the aerial kill moves the most. Plus Up B is not as useful in this MU. While edgeguarding, Icies can recover low with Up B or high with Side B, so pay attention to their position offstage. I wouldn't follow them offstage that often unless you are following up on a projectile since they have the Fair meteor that they can try to use to punish you following them. Nair can knock them away well though, so after hitting close with a projectile, Nair is a good option that you can recover from. That is the case with both Icies. With Sopo however, it gets interesting. He can only recover with Side B since Up B just gimps himself, so edgeguarding becomes easy here. On stage, his approaches are the same as before, but it's his followups that change along with other options. He can't wobble, regrab in the same way, or throw to immediate smash attack. He can Dthrow to aerial followups (we Smash 4 now), his Uair doesn't send you that far away, so he can use it to lead to a smash attack depending on your DI. Freeze still leads to a grab with it's hit stun, so be careful. Same way to kill here.
Last thing, the ice projectile can throw you off if you don't pay attention to where it's positioned, so don't let them condition you. That is the Icies MU in how it goes IMO. So, if you get grabbed often, they will win. If not, you have the advantage in your tools to win the MU, so I say that this MU is in our favor.
Edit: Forgot to mention, you will see this in the Grab Punishes thread already, but you will not grab in this MU often. If anything you can grab Sopo for a combo or a kill, which is the extent that you want to go for grabs on an Ice Climber.
#2 in my region is ICs and currently has been beating me a bunch. I also played DizzKidBoogie at TCU (not sure on the spelling of his tag) and he was really good. From my experience, nair is awkward / dangerous to use. If you use it, go for a late nair. Fast nair will probably get you grabbed (aggressive wavedash forward). Getting grabbed often is not the problem, getting grabbed at all is the problem. They won't hesitate to wobble you and then you are dead. Even with Nana being hit away, DizzKidBoogie chain grabbed me with Popo (yes, they have a chaingrab with Sopo) until Nana got back and then wobbled me.
The matchup should be played almost exclusively on platforms during neutral. Throw things at them and abuse shield drop / up-b out of shield to punish their aerials. Watch out for tomahawk grabs. Literally throw things until Nana is forced to tech or you hit them with a bomb in the air. Nana will not tech, ever. Up-air is usually a good punish. Nana doesn't DI. It is often possible to have them both stuck in a juggle. Watch out for wavedash stuff (particularly down smash and grab).
Honestly, the most important thing to learn in this matchup, specifically, is how Nana behaves. No techs, no DI, always recovers with her jump in that same way. You can easily stuff her jump with a soft nair if you time it right. ICs don't really have a good edgeguard on Link, so you should be able to make it back fairly easily. Jumping backwards leaves your hookshot open for use as well. If Nana is in hit stun, she cannot up-b with Popo. Throw things at them if they are recovering together. In fact, you should pretty much always be throwing things at them. Up-b is really good if you read the Popo. They have to come after you to save Nana, so they will probably throw out an attack. If you up-b them as they approach, it stops them, and the up-b stays out long enough to probably also kill Nana. If they shield and get a punish, well you still got Nana most likely. It also lets you mix it up with just doing a safe move on Nana like nair since they are shielding. Being on a platform also minimises punishes. The moves you need to watch out for are pretty much just d-smash and grab. If you can up-b Nana while you are on a platform, Popo probably can't do much about it. You can CC a lot of his aerials and pretty much nothing will kill from there. This might change a bit if he is above you since then he can do fair d-smash. If he's below or just far away, the up-b is probably safe. No DI on your dair also makes Nana die pretty low.
Go for stages with platforms and some space. Pokemon stadium is probably our best stage in the matchup. FD is by far the worst. Then I'd go for bigger stages over smaller ones. Yoshi's before Fountain.
I don't know the exact level, but she (Nana) is really stupid lol. She also only acts on her own when she is separated and probably some other condition. Otherwise she will run back to Popo or be copying Popo. I must say, it does suck when you get hit by Nana lol. Like when you drop a punish because she does something crazy and hits you.
Just remember:
- Platforms
- Throw things
- Never go in unless they are in the air or your projectiles got you the knockdown
- When Nana / Popo have to tech, you can start getting lots of follow ups
- Watch out for wavedash grab, d-smash
- ICs are pretty bad in the air
- Nana never techs, never DIs, always recovers the same way
- Sopo is less deadly, but still threatens with the same moves as with Nana (grab / d-smash out of wavedash)
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Vs. Captain Falcon
You are right in the fact that Falcon is hard due to his incredible speed, but then again Link can combo Falcon and mess up his momentum. Not to mention that Falcon is easier to edgeguard than most (I play Falcon as well for the Sheik MU and to understand the Link vs. Falcon MU, so I felt his pain a few times). I would say that the MU is better in NTSC due to Up B Semi-Spike being an option to edgeguard Falcon or to get him off the stage. Really with Falcon, you should look for trying to gimp him or just put him into a position of being edgeguarded rather than trying to rack up damage and then killing him. He is heavy and will live for a long time otherwise.
One thing that works nicely on falcon is aerial to land behind his shield and up-smash. He can't hit behind him like that very well and will get caught by the up-smash if he jumps to hit you with a stomp. You can shield or up-tilt very quickly after the up-smash, so it's pretty much unpunishable. He'd have to move out of the way right after the aerial, which basically requires a read.
I don't know if the matchup is favourable or not, but it doesn't seem all that bad. I find if you play it right, and keep an eye out for what your opponent is doing, you can control the match very well, but any mistake and you start to die super fast. ... I find if they just shield the up-tilt, you are in trouble. Maybe if you are far enough away. And ya, the up-smash should be done very close to them. I am pretty sure it is safe on the back of his shield though. Maybe if he does wavedash back grab it could be dangerous, but you could probably still buffer roll out in time. I wouldn't spam it, but if you notice they are stomping out of shield when you land behind them, it will probably catch them and it is relatively safe.
Coming from the Grab Punishes Thread:
Pretty much that same as spacies, but you have to add around 10% for all the windows. I don't think up-throw into dair connects on him, but I haven't really tried it. At lower damage, his tech is slow enough that you can actually fairly easily chain grab him the same way Shiek does. It's just really dangerous if you miss.
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Vs. Pikachu
It feels like it's not bad for Link, but Axe makes pikachu look scary. I feel like pikachu might have really good coverage of out recovery and his speed is a danger for Link's projectiles / neutral game. Can he duck Link's grab? Combos are probably similar to Shiek / marth (somewhere in between there). I don't have anything to go by at this point, though.
I've always found Pikachu to be fairly easy for Link. His out of shield options get him out of all but perfectly-spaced pressure (u-air has surprising reach behind Pika), but his approach options are just terrible. Nairs and jabs wall Pikachu out really well, and he's extremely easy to combo. Perhaps the most difficult thing about Pika-Link is that his shield is just so poor. Link has always been a proficient shield stabber, and mixing up d-smashes and turn around u-tilts makes it really hard for Pikachu to keep angling his shield to meet your attacks. I'm not the best Link player, but even good Pikachus like N64 have to consistently outplay me to win the MU.
I think Link/Pika is in Links favor. I mentioned at one point that a buddy of mine picked up Pika a few months back and he has trouble with my Link. He seems to have a hard time approaching but projectiles help him with that. As mentioned, Uair works good on Link and is a fantastic gimp option for Pika so that is one thing that he has on us. I should mention though that this friends Pika is still very unrefined so I can't be sure of anything. I can update as his Pika improves and I play the MU more. I will probably be playing it a lot because I don't like using my Luigi against him. From what it would seem at present, I'd suspect the MU is 60/40 in Link's favor but no way to be sure right now.
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Vs. Samus
Actually, we outcamp Samus... if Samus isn't going in, she should be losing. Powershielding stuff from both sides can happen, and she can catch bombs, but she has to actually catch or shield them. If she's shooting missles, we can SHFFL any of nair, fair, or even uair to clank them out, or we can jab, and I've even seen moments when someone jumps over the missile and dairs it. We can also block super and sometimes homing missiles by just standing still [duck or walk forward occasionally to make sure you don't get that annoying idling animation that makes our shield not work].
Link's jab pressure on Samus [jab, jab, or jab jab, jab, jab] where you potentially do another move [dsmash, fair, nair, grab] but also could just keep jabbing, if spaced, is insane, because Samus lacks a proper answer. Grab is way too slow, I don't THINK nair reaches [she'd have to move closer], fair might reach but CC that, and up+B definitely doesn't reach, meaning her best option is to roll away [since you should just about be able to react to cross-up roll with spin attack]. Our fair/nair/bair are safe enough on shield that she can't hit us with up+B OoS if we buffer shield as we land, so if you cross her up she can't do much [slow bair], and if you land in front of her and are trying to, you can spotdodge her grab on reaction, then punish with fsmash, grab, spin attack, or dair.
Our projectiles can be surprisingly effective at racking damage while she's recovering offstage, though to gimp her we almost certainly need to hit her with bomb or rang while she's firing the tether, since nothing except arrows will knock her downwards, and arrows are hardish to land. You could attempt to use nair occasionally, but if you miss, she's probably on the ledge or onstage and you have to recover - that's a good look vs precisely zero characters in this game.
Dthrow, while good in almost every single MU, seems bad in this one. I know I'm not perfect at it, so it may very well be me, but it seems like dthrow is negative on hit, or at least the difference in actionability after the throw between Link and Samus is such that our only safe option is shielding(@
SAUS
if that person perhapsman or whatever would be willing to help test that, it would be great to see if I just need to really grind out that dthrow -> X punish, or if I'm right to not dthrow). Uthrow, however, is good, since she has bad air speed and we have an amazing uair [and nair].
All her aerials are fairly safe on shield, but she can really only follow them up on the ground with dsmash [punishable] or jab stuff [which you can almost always safely roll away from if she doesn't have charge shot, though of course not always rolling away is a good idea because you don't want to be predictable]. If your timing is perfect, you can spin attack out of jab1 pressure, unless that happens to be the exact time she goes for jab2, at which point you take like 6% and minimal knockback [not enough to KO until well past 200% if memory serves].
Samus is really heavy, so KOing with uair and dair is much easier than other aerials. Fsmash can also help somewhat [the second hit has a nice angle that will help KO her off the top], but fair won't KO until after 150% in this MU unless right by the ledge.
I can write more up if people want later. I did a huge write-up on this MU on the Samus boards a while back as well [it was longer than this though].
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Vs. Yoshi
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Vs. Luigi
Luigi loses in the air (as long as you don't go too close to him) since his air speed in general is pretty weak. Staying on platforms and throwing things at him can be pretty annoying for him.
If you land a grab, up-throw and wait. It is all you can do.
Keep him in the air whenever you can with up-airs and bombs. You will eventually kill him this way.
His down-b can be annoying, but staying on platforms beats it. I think you can also crouch cancel it for a while. Shielding it can also allow you to just run away from him after.
I've played ajp many times, he always says that you should think of Luigi as a Rook in chess. He covers horizontal and vertical paths well but sucks at diagonals. Link being as versatile as he is have no problem with diagonals so try to be at a diagonal angle above him.
Bomb dair and bomb uair works like a charm vs luigi and your fair and fsmash are great on his shield. Don't throw the rang horizontally, he can just luigicopter through it, aproaching you and getting more recovery options at the same time. One thing I havent figured out yet is how to edgeguard him effectively, Im thinking hookshot and hanging low should work to first avoid his fair and then roll up when he upBs.
I dont think Link needs to avoid Luigis nair as much as other characters, your disjointed hitboxes will make it hard for him to counter attack with that attack.
I actually play Luigi as well as Link, more often than Link even. From my experience, the MU against Luigi is extremely difficult for anyone if they don't know what to expect from Luigi. I have used Luigi to tear to pieces players that are much more experienced than me simply because they didn't know the MU and were overwhelmed by my speed and pressure. Luigi is momentum based; his primary form of movement is his insanely long wavedash and he has very strong aerials that can put out a lot of pressure, especially his dair and fair.
I have read in a Luigi MU thread that Luigi/Link is advantageous for Luigi, albeit not by much, I'd say 60/40 at the worst. I don't really know the matchup too well because I rarely encounter other Link players and when I play against other Luigis I play the ditto and not with Link. I can however tell you a lot of what I know about Luigi that you should be aware of when facing him. Your number one goal while fighting a Luigi is to never allow him to gain momentum, if you let Luigi feel like he can do what he wants he will move on you so quick you wont even know what to do next. I have a training partner that I usually go to last stock with but in some matches where I get solid momentum going, I have been known to 3 or even 4 stock him (the momentum is especially dangerous if he gets it on Yoshi's.)
Other things to be aware of:
-Luigi hates to be juggled since he's a floaty and when you do have him in the air he might try to come back down with a dair or a falling cyclone. Bombs and uairs from Link should be excellent when Luigi is in the air.
-Always watch out for misfires, when you see him side b, always assume it will be a misfire so that you can be prepared for the senerio, I get free stocks off people all the time because they aren't prepared for my misfires.
-Be aware of his up b shoryuken, if you provide an opening for it he WILL go for it, Luigis are thirsty like a camel for these (perhaps something to consider baiting because lots of lag if he misses.)
-He can do basically anything out of his long wavedashes, common attacks out of wavedash are d smash and f tilt (if f tilt he will probably try to angle it upward.)
-If he starts a stationary combo using chained tilts, get the hell away from him, do not try to challenge it with an attack. I've racked up as much as 50% using a combo like this because the opponent tried to turn it around rather than backing off and re-approaching.
-His nair is very versatile and is great for breaking combos, you always need to be conscience of the fact that a simple nair can shoot you down if you're not careful.
-Never assume he is too far below stage to recover. It is a common misconception that Luigi has bad recovery but in reality, his recovery simply has a high learning curve, once you have the technicalities of the cyclone and green missle down he has awesome recovery. Luigis always talk about getting free recovery because an opponent gave up on edge guarding them assuming they were too far gone. One thing about the cyclone, though, is that it cant be used to rise unless it has been charged by first having used it while grounded once. It must be recharged every time it is used without touching the ground by the end of the animation.
Hope that helps and I'm excited to see this guide continue to develop, Link needs all the help he can get!
Oh since you mentioned stage picks that makes me realize I forgot to mention an important Luigi fact: Luigi absolutely loves dreamland in basically any MU. With dreamland's far off kill box and Luigi's various recovery tools he can live forever there especially if his DI is on point. It's also a big stage giving him plenty of room to do Luigi things to you which would especially be a problem for someone as slow as Link I suppose. Bottom line, immediately ban it, if he takes you there you're in for a ride. I suppose being really campy and waiting for punish opportunities would be the best strategy if you do find yourself in that position.
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Vs. Doctor Mario
As for Mario / Doc, they used projectiles sometimes, but being on a platform pretty much makes them useless. They were not really a problem for me. I am not sure if Doc is better at gimping. The way the mario player edge guarded me was let go of edge -> back air. Jumping if needed. It can catch you out of the hookshot and then you are basically dead. If I up-b, he would cape me so I am facing the wrong way and completely messes up my sweetspot, then f-smash. It was actually pretty rough. The guy knew what he was doing.
The main thing with Doc, I found, is that pills are more annoying than the fireballs (not by that much though) and his fair makes his combos way more deadly. There's a lot of points where his throw just combos into fair and it kills you. I think the mario I faced in tournament was better than the docs I played in friendlies.
Mario on the other hand, can be a bit of a struggle. SAUS said it perfectly, the punishes on his end are super strong, and he's really slippery to boot. J666 beat A Rookie at a tournament called Mayhem recently, so if you can find a video of that, it might give you some ideas. Against Mario, I pretty much just accept being juggled and chain grabbed for a lot of percent. Mario has problems removing stocks if you can avoid his smash attacks, and reaching a high enough percent that d-throw f-smash no longer works means he'll pretty much be fishing for smash reads or strong nairs. You also can easily use your ranged advantage against him, and predicting when he'll cape projectiles can give you an edge in zoning.
/edit: And against Link's somewhat short recovery, Mario and Doc are going to be pretty much equivalent with their ledge drop bair gimp capability. Doc's bair does hit at a better semi-spike though.
In reguards to Doc I can agree that Doc has great punishes. Back before I played competitively I played with a friend who mained Doc. Back then I played very predictable and he knew my strats pretty much spot on from playing me so much. I distinctly remember it being really hard to beat him because I would get punished hardcore. Pills were a hard edgeguard to deal with but that was before I knew what I was doing, I imagine that now I'd be able to sweetspot and avoid the pills but I don't play the MU these days because my Luigi takes care of his bro pretty nicely.
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Vs. Ganondorf
This also can help with thinking about the Ganon MU as well as the Falcon MU. Falcon's speed allows for him to break through traditional Link projectile walls that he can use against other characters, forcing him to lower his zoning a little bit in order to try to go for combos and to gimp/edgeguard him. With Ganondorf, you have a similar MU except you can zone more to get some more percentage since Ganondorf is very slow. At the lower percents, Dthrow or Uthrow can lead to a Utilt, maybe even a string of them, Uair, Nair, Dair, Bair, or Fair (Up B and Usmash could be follow ups, but they are very punishable if whiffed, if the opponent DIs away (with the Usmash), or if the opponent is at a low enough percent to not be sent away far enough to not punish it. Not to mention that landing all three hits of Usmash is a miracle). However, if you try to lead in with a SHFFL aerial when Ganon is at low percents (I don't know the specifics on the percents for all aerials yet), he can CC it and can get a free punish, so projectiles can be used to get him past the CC percentages. If you manage to get a grab, Link's combos could lead to the Ganon being left at a high percent to easily be put in an edgeguarding position. On Ganon's side, he usually goes for spaced Bairs, Fairs, and sometimes Uairs. His Dthrow has brutal followups with all aerials and Usmash when the Link doesn't DI away. Ganondorf can kill Link with less hits than Link killing Ganondorf, so not getting grabbed is essential. Fair has a large hitbox, so be wary if he tries to space you out with them. If you play PAL, Ganon's Fair doesn't kill as well p, so Bair will be his alternative spacing and killing move. SAUS can elaborate on this MU better than I can with his experience against Kage (never could find the match if it was recorded). But that is what I know of the Ganondorf MU. The Falcon MU should be more volatile with his great, extensive combos and speed. He still can get juggled like Ganon, but it will be harder to start than on Ganondorf with the lower amount of projectile use that is necessary to avoid being punished for relying on walls that Falcon could break through.
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Vs. Mario
As for Mario / Doc, they used projectiles sometimes, but being on a platform pretty much makes them useless. They were not really a problem for me. I am not sure if Doc is better at gimping. The way the mario player edge guarded me was let go of edge -> back air. Jumping if needed. It can catch you out of the hookshot and then you are basically dead. If I up-b, he would cape me so I am facing the wrong way and completely messes up my sweetspot, then f-smash. It was actually pretty rough. The guy knew what he was doing.
Mario on the other hand, can be a bit of a struggle. SAUS said it perfectly, the punishes on his end are super strong, and he's really slippery to boot. J666 beat A Rookie at a tournament called Mayhem recently, so if you can find a video of that, it might give you some ideas. Against Mario, I pretty much just accept being juggled and chain grabbed for a lot of percent. Mario has problems removing stocks if you can avoid his smash attacks, and reaching a high enough percent that d-throw f-smash no longer works means he'll pretty much be fishing for smash reads or strong nairs. You also can easily use your ranged advantage against him, and predicting when he'll cape projectiles can give you an edge in zoning.
/edit: And against Link's somewhat short recovery, Mario and Doc are going to be pretty much equivalent with their ledge drop bair gimp capability. Doc's bair does hit at a better semi-spike though.
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Vs. Young Link
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The Ditto
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Vs. Donkey Kong
Now with the DK v. Link MU, you obviously don't want to get grabbed for the sake of the Uair chain, but it's easier to tell what the DK is going to do based on direction he's facing. Back towards you? Bair. Facing you? Grab. Aside from this, his other moves are slower and situational, which are punishable. Also, yes, our projectiles are very useful in this MU since they do keep him out for a while. However, you can't just rely on camping him out since he can get through them eventually. We combo DK to death due to his fall speed, and the combos on him are basically the same against other characters, but it's easier here due to the larger hitbox. Our disjointed attacks do out range him for the most part (I still have to look at the DK Bair's hitboxes), and our projectiles can start a heavy punish as well. Another note to keep in mind, DK can only really edgeguard with Bair and Fair (Fair is more optimal), but we can edgeguard DK in many more ways. Projectiles, Nair, Bair, Fair, and of course the edge hog. DK's recovery isn't all that good, so the edge hog should be easier to setup than other characters. So the MU is straightforward from here. Keep him out for a while with projectiles, if the opportunity comes take a grab and punish, and gimp him. That is what I go for in this MU.
I played against a strong DK from Montreal (used to go by PKM Vodka). He doesn't main DK anymore, but his DK is still really good. I found that he could edge guard me almost 100% of the time with his up-b strong hit. He just needed to be in the right spot so that he would still make it back to the edge and it is basically guaranteed kill. I think you have to up-b recover more in the matchup, but I'm not sure. I only played him in like 2 games or something (against his DK) and there is no other DK that I've played against that is nearly as good.
I find you have to also be wary of his grab range. He's so big that spacing around him is actually awkward. He also moves sort of fast (compared to Link at least, lol), so he is still threatening.
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Vs. Mewtwo
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Vs. Game & Watch
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Vs. Ness
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Vs. Bowser
Link has a huge advantage here. With proper zoning or camping, and since Bowser is a grounded character, Bowser has no way to safely approach with his slow speed. Bowser gets comboed hard in this MU (but when is he not?), Utilt and Uair string together beautifully and Bowser will have a hard time getting out. Bomb to Dair works well, but make sure to do it at a high enough percent since he's heavy. Shield poke with Dsmash after some jabs. FSmash kills him well or sets up for an easy edgehog (that is if you manage to land it). Up B kills him well too. Bowser can't do much against Nair or Bair. You can space with Fair, but it's risky. Make sure to avoid the Koopa Klaw because forward version leads to an easy Fair for Bowser. Watch out for Up B out of shield. Bowser's quick moves are Nair and Fair. His Uair is situational, but it can be a Koopa Klaw follow up, so don't DI the Klaw Up at high percents. Bair is useless for him except at the ledge so expect him to try to gimp you with it when he's facing away. Dair is useless altogether. Bowser can grab the ledge again after down B, so be careful when he does it (Probably use projectiles to punish safely). At low percents, Bowser can use a quick getup attack from the ledge even for an edgeguard, so keep this in mind. Uthrow leads to Utilt or Uair typically. Dthrow starts a tech chase or leads to Up B mostly. This is the MU in summation.
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Vs. Pichu
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Vs. Roy
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Vs. Zelda
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Vs. Kirby
The Kirby will feel like a lesser version of the Jigglypuff MU. He likes to use the air quite a bit since he is slightly more mobile in the air (he's not that mobile in the air, but that just tells you how mobile he is on the ground. He has a wall of pain like Jigglypuff, but it's easier to break with projectiles. He falls faster as well, so you can string together a few hits at very low percent stake sometimes, but he's still light making the MU not combo-based on your part. The ways kill him are the same as Jigglypuff, and he still dies early (just not quite as early, just add maybe 10% to be safe). Don't grab much since it can sometimes be hard to get him with his small body size (he doesn't have a rest to punish us, but we still can be comboed as a punish. His can use some Utilt strings on us, but he will focus on the wall of pain mostly. You will probably end up spacing him out with projectiles and aerials in the fight, but you have some room for aggression. In terms of edgeguarding, Kirby has a harder time getting back than Puff, so him him out and force all of his jumps to be used. After that he can't do anything, and it's easier since he can't just hit away the projectile freely. He also can't really rise up for recovery either, so he can't do anything if he starts getting low and is kept there. This pretty much is the MU as far as I know.
Kirby tends to stay pretty grounded actually - aerials are important but Kirby is SIGNIFICANTLY more grounded than Puff. Kirby will also stay grounded more because he can duck our stuff. He'll attack from the air, but he's going to approach on the ground because shielding and ducking [and even rolling] are options he maintains grounded, and his air speed is atrocious.
For gimping, if they're ledge level, nairing after the third hit of fair if they do it carelessly is a great edgeguard since you'll run him out of jumps after doing this once or twice, at which point you just have to grab the ledge and roll [the airspeed on final cutter is nearly nonexistent].
I know this having played Triple R [I was truly trash before, but I have played him] and if you watch his Kirby you'll notice he's not all that airborne outside of committing to a close-range attack or a tomahawk. Also, Kirby's bair OoS is more dangerous than his fair, so if you try any jab pressure tricks, you want to do them from the front [fair is easier to CC shield or whatever, and I think fair is a little slower]. Kirby has a 3-frame jumpsquat, so even though his aerials are about average speed, they're good OoS options.
Here's a video of him playing to help illustrate some of what I mean [it's not versus Link, but you'll hopefully see what I mean about him approaching while grounded]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alccs3CrFXI
Also, I think it's worth adding this to the guide section as a warning about something to avoid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g1kTaDg1U0
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