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Stryker95

Stryker95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
252
Location
Texas
I love seeing people jump ship before even touching the game. Young Link looks cool though so I will probably lab for him as well as Link and Zelda.
 
Rizen

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,898
Location
Colorado
Stryker95 said:
I love seeing people jump ship before even touching the game. Young Link looks cool though so I will probably lab for him as well as Link and Zelda.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying the final version will be nonviable but Link as he is in the demo is a bad character.

Link loses CQC to most of the cast so he needs to zone them. BotLink can't detonate bombs near him because the large explosion hits him too, UNLIKE IN SSB4. He's lost one of the best combo starters and zoning moves in any smash game: normal bombs. This is a huge nerf. Remote bombs only operate as a long range nuke attack and suck as C4s because the opponent can pick them up with no risk. They can't combo into attacks nearly as well because Link must pause to detonate them. The lack of a timer means he gets ledge trapped because he can't time a ledge getup or roll to be covered by the explosion. They don't work in CQC without hurting Link too.

Like I said, Link loses CQC to most of the cast. Partially because he doesn't have good angles on his attacks. Compare his sword attacks to Marth's; Link either swings along horizontal z axis lines, Fair, or stabs his sword out, Uair. Marth has nice vertical crescent slashes that don't have dead zones. How Link dealt with this was by mid-range zoning through bombs, Zair and pivots including pivot grab. Now his mid range game lost Zair, which beat Marth's sword range, and bombs 2 of the best zoning moves in the game. With the exception of boomerang Link is no longer a zoner. Unless he gets frame data buffs for sword attacks he'll be terrible.

If opponents can pick up arrows too it means wiffed arrows give characters like Ganon an item to toss at him. So if anything this is a nerf.

Boomerang at least is a strait buff.

Link's grab is a mixed blessing, assuming it's not stupidly slow like Zelda/Greninja's ssb4 grabs. Link actually has a low commitment CQC option to beat shields now. That's great for tomahawking, platform pressure (think SV), and getting critters out of his face. The downside is he loses a mid-range punish option that outranges things like Marcina's sword. Pivot grab was good in ssb4.

Losing Zair, a safe poke the size of Shulk's Bair, really sucks. Link is now much easier to dash>shield grab by characters like DK. He has no aerial mid range answer to bigger swords like Cloud's.
This also makes recoveries more linear, although moving airdodges help everyone, and he can't stall 2 frames like Ike's eruption. Link can't escape by FF airdodging offstage>tethering the ledge. This with losing bombs to cover landings seriously nerfs his landing disadvantage state.

So in the demo, Link is nonviable. He could gets frame data buffs and OP options like ding dong and still be viable in the final game, patches exist. He just won't be a zoner like before.
 
Stryker95

Stryker95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
252
Location
Texas
Rizen said:
I'm not saying the final version will be nonviable but Link as he is in the demo is a bad character.

Link loses CQC to most of the cast so he needs to zone them. BotLink can't detonate bombs near him because the large explosion hits him too, UNLIKE IN SSB4. He's lost one of the best combo starters and zoning moves in any smash game: normal bombs. This is a huge nerf. Remote bombs only operate as a long range nuke attack and suck as C4s because the opponent can pick them up with no risk. They can't combo into attacks nearly as well because Link must pause to detonate them. The lack of a timer means he gets ledge trapped because he can't time a ledge getup or roll to be covered by the explosion. They don't work in CQC without hurting Link too.

Like I said, Link loses CQC to most of the cast. Partially because he doesn't have good angles on his attacks. Compare his sword attacks to Marth's; Link either swings along horizontal z axis lines, Fair, or stabs his sword out, Uair. Marth has nice vertical crescent slashes that don't have dead zones. How Link dealt with this was by mid-range zoning through bombs, Zair and pivots including pivot grab. Now his mid range game lost Zair, which beat Marth's sword range, and bombs 2 of the best zoning moves in the game. With the exception of boomerang Link is no longer a zoner. Unless he gets frame data buffs for sword attacks he'll be terrible.

If opponents can pick up arrows too it means wiffed arrows give characters like Ganon an item to toss at him. So if anything this is a nerf.

Boomerang at least is a strait buff.

Link's grab is a mixed blessing, assuming it's not stupidly slow like Zelda/Greninja's ssb4 grabs. Link actually has a low commitment CQC option to beat shields now. That's great for tomahawking, platform pressure (think SV), and getting critters out of his face. The downside is he loses a mid-range punish option that outranges things like Marcina's sword. Pivot grab was good in ssb4.

Losing Zair, a safe poke the size of Shulk's Bair, really sucks. Link is now much easier to dash>shield grab by characters like DK. He has no aerial mid range answer to bigger swords like Cloud's.
This also makes recoveries more linear, although moving airdodges help everyone, and he can't stall 2 frames like Ike's eruption. Link can't escape by FF airdodging offstage>tethering the ledge. This with losing bombs to cover landings seriously nerfs his landing disadvantage state.

So in the demo, Link is nonviable. He could gets frame data buffs and OP options like ding dong and still be viable in the final game, patches exist. He just won't be a zoner like before.
Click to expand...
While not a contender for the most “Link main” post of all time, it contains nearly all of the elements. Completely theoretical, based on no solid personal experience, not accounting for potential developments in meta, and following outdated trains of thought to come to the inevitable conclusion that Link is simply a terrible character.
Just play the game man.
 
Rizen

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,898
Location
Colorado
Stryker95 said:
While not a contender for the most “Link main” post of all time, it contains nearly all of the elements. Completely theoretical, based on no solid personal experience, not accounting for potential developments in meta, and following outdated trains of thought to come to the inevitable conclusion that Link is simply a terrible character.
Just play the game man.
Click to expand...
Ad hominem much? What tournaments did you play Link in?
 
Rizen

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,898
Location
Colorado
Stryker95 said:
None, which is precisely my point. How could we have a discussion over something we have no data nor experience with? It’s ludicrous.
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I don't have to watch the Adam Sandler movie Jack and Jill to know I won't like that. I've played competitive smash since brawl came out, gone to tournaments including regionals and ssb4 weeklies until a few weeks ago. You're free to disagree but when I see Link lost his Zair I say it hurts his zoning.
 
LakerLink

LakerLink

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
71
Location
Pasco Wa
I haven't been on here for a while, Stryker the new linkcord will need some help on labbing if your still up for it. One thing that I still haven't seen change, is the fact that link mains are degenerate s.
 
Stryker95

Stryker95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
252
Location
Texas
LakerLink said:
I haven't been on here for a while, Stryker the new linkcord will need some help on labbing if your still up for it. One thing that I still haven't seen change, is the fact that link mains are degenerate s.
Click to expand...
I plan on labbing for Link and Young Link, maybe some Zelda for fun. If anyone wants to know something they can just let me know. But trying to keep the discord meta channel clean with an influx of newbies (and older players) trying to be high speed and “discovering” stuff is a task I don’t have time for.
Just hit me up on Smashboards or PM me on discord and I got you man.
 
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