Letter to the Community - From the PMDT

[Kati]

sd remix isn't really alive atm. Iirc it takes a lot more work to set up, so I don't see it working as a "gateway" mod anytime soon.

 

[Draco_The]

Other Smash games don't even have semi-competent CPUs.

Also no one cares about CPUs.

I do care.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Thanks for the Awesome letter! It's awesome to see you guys working so hard for the community. I still can't comprehend how you guys do it. But it's kinda inspiring to see you guys work this hard. Can't wait to see what you have in store for us and really hope everything goes well!

 

[Comeback Kid]

I don't think people realize just how difficult programming the A.I. is with the limited tools they have,

There is a guy working on it and don't expect things to be even close to perfect.

 

[Alakaslam]

AI is a crapshoot

Check it Tvtropes

 

[Frost | Odds]

This is a touchy one where feelings could get hurt, but I'll just say it straight. Not everyone is qualified, but those who are will apply for the PMDT and likely be accepted. As much as I'd like to believe otherwise, the internet isn't a very healthy place for positive, constructive discussion, no matter how you try to shape it. If folks have the motivation, knowledge, and creativity they will apply for the PMDT on their own terms. Those who want to make a positive impact will try, and those kinds of individuals are what we want.

You're right, that is touchy.

My region has no players that would be recognized as "notable", because our streams aren't terribly popular, and our PM scene doesn't have a lot of breadth -- therefore, I feel that my answers to these questions:

2) What smash tournament experience do you have?

3) What other notable players do you frequently play with?

would already necessarily exclude me from being able to participate simply by virtue of my geographic location - despite my extremely strong background in competitive gaming, and in closed beta/balance testing (having done so for about half a dozen games, to which I was a fairly major contributor), my motivation, and my love for PM.

It's kind of a moot point right now with applications closed until after 3.5, but surely you understand where I'm coming from here.

 

[NFTsmasher]

I'm just curious. How big is the current PMDT? I know it's been said that progress is sometimes hard to make because of the number of people working on it.

 

[Shadic]

About 100, but the amount of regularly contributing members is probably closer to 30-40.

 

[MLGF]

That's... wow.
I expected a much larger team TBQH.

 

[Shadic]

Think that's crazy? The top ten contributors to our SVN are 61% of the total revision updates.

Not the best method of measuring contributions, but yeah.

 

[MLGF]

lolwow. And the other 30 of you guys probably deal with the communities' stupidity on Smashboards.
Good balance, both probably take a lot of work and patience.

No, but really. That's kinda a sad joke, I always assumed the team was a large group of training monkeys

The best dang monkeys out there

 

[Deleted member]

And the other 30 of you guys probably deal with the communities' stupidity on Smashboards.

I keep thinking your name says MILF

I can't be the only one

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Take as much time as you need, it is better to have a good product earlier than having a bad one early.

In spite of being not part of the team or anything, I would like to name some concerns I have (and, if possible, give advice). Obviously I can't know if those issues are addressed so far so it might be true they are already fixed.

One concern I have (you are probably aware of that) is that balancing was only done in a way that the current characters strengths, dependant on metagame progress, were somehow brought to the same or a near value for the specific metagame progress value, while ignoring the rest of the character strength values for other metagame progresses. If that is continued the balance will only hold for a short amount of time, until the metagame progresses significantly. The only solution is reforming learning curves in a way they are more similar. There are many kinds of elements that have influence on the difficulty, so it isn't the only solution to make techskill easier or harder for some characters, but way more instruments to regulate the player-character-strength depending on player-strength. Just to name a few of them, making a few choices situationally good that approximately cover the use of one good option as alternative, or doing the opposite, can change the difficulty while keeping the character's strength. Giving characters one easier/harder to use small advantage and taking another of opposing difficulty away (active frame number, movement differences, IASA frames as examples for such features) is in most cases the most viable method for such a reshaping of difficulty curves.

As a addition to the last concern, that also has its reasons in different fields of the game where characters perform differently while a strong neutral game makes the learning curve harder and a strong punish game without the necessity of performing combinations affording great precision lowers its slope. But apart from that, I am somehow worried that certain distributions of strengths in these categories may lead to polarized matchups which, I assume, isn't wanted either. Here I wanted to say that it is important to change the real cause of the problem and not changing everything around it to fit because that will cause other instabilities again and it is isn't likely a stable state with relatively unpolarized matchups can be found this way.

How do you generally want to handle conflicts between uniqueness or characters' identities against balancing. I think it is really important to find compromises here because giving too much priority to the uniqueness and balancing around other factors as result tends to lead to a polarized matchup chart for the respective character (as mentioned above), but a uniformization isn't the community's wish either. This is also heavily linked to the question if the characters should be made more unique or less unique or to construct it around the current state, I don't think there is a consensus in the community for some of these questions.

 

[MLGF]

I keep thinking your name says MILF

I can't be the only one

You are not, I get that a lot.

 

[Zolom]

You're right, that is touchy.

My region has no players that would be recognized as "notable", because our streams aren't terribly popular, and our PM scene doesn't have a lot of breadth -- therefore, I feel that my answers to these questions:


would already necessarily exclude me from being able to participate simply by virtue of my geographic location - despite my extremely strong background in competitive gaming, and in closed beta/balance testing (having done so for about half a dozen games, to which I was a fairly major contributor), my motivation, and my love for PM.

It's kind of a moot point right now with applications closed until after 3.5, but surely you understand where I'm coming from here.

I completely understand. Don't let a couple of questions deter you from trying! The PMDT is just a group of gaming fanatics who love the game, we certainly aren't some corporate, heartless business. Spend a couple days compiling a resume and writing out an app. When applications open back up send it in. It's true, we take our applications seriously because we take the game seriously, but you'll never get a response if you don't try!

If you would really like to get involved, but have other concerns or questions on the application process send me a message. I would be happy to help you out.

 

[ꓰspeon]

As much as a (however) precise release date isn't really fit for a deadline-less fan project, there IS one thing you could do to placate many spirits, and that is, give us a date before which we're assured there won't be any release.
This way the PMDT doesn't tie itself to any deadline, AND we can tell people in chats everywhere that 3.5 is not due until at least this much, so we can stop stressing about it for a while, and not have pre-release jitters.

By the time that date comes you can either a) release it, 2) give another date of the same kind, or 3) say nothing and then it's just business/hype as usual, as if you didn't say anything in the first place (only we got to experience peace of mind for a while)

Sounds good enough to give it a try?

 

[Zolom]

As much as a (however) precise release date isn't really fit for a deadline-less fan project, there IS one thing you could do to placate many spirits, and that is, give us a date before which we're assured there won't be any release.
This way the PMDT doesn't tie itself to any deadline, AND we can tell people in chats everywhere that 3.5 is not due until at least this much, so we can stop stressing about it for a while, and not have pre-release jitters.

By the time that date comes you can either a) release it, 2) give another date of the same kind, or 3) say nothing and then it's just business/hype as usual, as if you didn't say anything in the first place (only we got to experience peace of mind for a while)

Sounds good enough to give it a try?

We do have deadlines!

I could see this working, but I can also see the issues. Good enough to try? No. An idea worth proposing to the team, however, absolutely.

 

[Shadic]

As much as a (however) precise release date isn't really fit for a deadline-less fan project, there IS one thing you could do to placate many spirits, and that is, give us a date before which we're assured there won't be any release.
This way the PMDT doesn't tie itself to any deadline, AND we can tell people in chats everywhere that 3.5 is not due until at least this much, so we can stop stressing about it for a while, and not have pre-release jitters.

By the time that date comes you can either a) release it, 2) give another date of the same kind, or 3) say nothing and then it's just business/hype as usual, as if you didn't say anything in the first place (only we got to experience peace of mind for a while)

Sounds good enough to give it a try?

We've pushed back our internal timelines many times in the past, for varying reasons. Making those delays a public disappointment instead of a private one isn't really going to fix anything.

 

[ꓰspeon]

We've pushed back our internal timelines many times in the past, for varying reasons. Making those delays a public disappointment instead of a private one isn't really going to fix anything.

I understand how keeping to postpone a date could be read in any case as motive for disappointment, I just thought that this way would bring less of it and still allow for some reprise from the constant wait in the air. But it's your call anyway. You're already a based team for doing PM, so keep fighting the good fight is enough for me.

 

[Darkevilprice995]

So when I just hopped on the website it said the current Dev version was 15733. A quick refresh changed it to 15785, however. How do these numbers increase? By a set amount each time?

 

[ꓰspeon]

So when I just hopped on the website it said the current Dev version was 15733. A quick refresh changed it to 15785, however. How do these numbers increase? By a set amount each time?

Most likely by +1 every time they change something. It doesn't have to be a big thing to make a dev update. Thing is, the website update isn't likely as immediate, so I'd hazard you caught them updating it on the site.

 

[Kes]

Lastly, on the topic of build leaks and information from parties outside the PMDT. When taking into consideration the point mentioned above, much of what you may hear from other players could very well be incorrect. When leaks or information is publicly released, speculation and arguments instantly ensue, and often turns rather ugly. In all truth, much of this is unnecessary, as the change at hand may not even be implemented into the next build. We avoid negativity among the community because it spreads through the player-base and we certainly don't enjoy seeing any part of the community in disarray. It is for this reason our moderators immediately get involved and take action. The only "leaked" information you can completely trust is one sanctioned and released by the Development Team.

If Lyndis, Isaac, Sami and Knuckles aren't true I will be immensely disappointed.

 

[Narpas_sword]

That's... wow.
I expected a much larger team TBQH.

That's a bigger team than i work for, making revenue management systems for various countries lol

 

[Jaedrik]

This is a touchy one where feelings could get hurt, but I'll just say it straight. Not everyone is qualified, but those who are will apply for the PMDT and likely be accepted. As much as I'd like to believe otherwise, the internet isn't a very healthy place for positive, constructive discussion, no matter how you try to shape it. If folks have the motivation, knowledge, and creativity they will apply for the PMDT on their own terms. Those who want to make a positive impact will try, and those kinds of individuals are what we want.

This is the classic and exceptionally shortsighted opinion of most modern development teams.

I find it strange you view it an inevitability that those qualified will apply. Surely, then, 'qualified' means willing to apply? That is a roundabout and useless qualification. We don't know the criteria.

I propose that the PMBR/DT board thingie be made visible, yet retain posting exclusively for the PMDT.

Not everyone is qualified, aye. Yet we all know things like balance changes must come to light at some point. One could say that the internet is not a welcoming place, but revealing the changes later rather than earlier will not restrain the caustic words that will be inevitably hurled at the new balance. To reveal them later means that each who objects feels as if the development team is unqualified due to the conclusions they may draw about internal discussions on the issue or about the character of the dev team itself. Yet to reveal them immediately means that detractors will have more time to ruminate on the proposed changes, and that metagame will develop quicker, and it provides a backdrop for real constructive feedback, since we would have the contributions of all the PMDT's postings to work off of.

Further, it does not mean the disdain for the changes will be greater, since that supposes the intensification of ideas and emotions in an individual is a function of time rather than of anything else. Instead, it means that we will have a less emotional and more impartial view on the discussion, since the very fact of an inclusive and open development encourages this behavior if the intention of the PMDT be healthy. For it is easy to see agendas and ulterior motives if all is revealed, not that there is some conspiracy in the PMDT, or that it wouldn't continue via an even more secret board if it did exist, and to know the intention of each openly is the very essence of trust, thus trust builds and emotional interference is reduced.

Moreover, if balance discussions among the masses become unbearable, there is nothing stopping the development team from continuing to discuss amongst themselves when said discussions are visible to all, since they have but to ignore the people posting in the popular forums about the changes. Yet it will only benefit them, since the rare poster may offer a poignant and powerful criticism that they would have otherwise not offered due to lack of reference to the goals, intentions, and previous discussion of the dev team.

Anything else, any want of secrecy, is imprudent and uncharitable. For if there is any issue with charity in the matter of the development of a video game then there is undoubtedly double dealing, back-talking, intentional vagueness, and generally peoples of poor character quality. Of course, there is the matter of 'scandal' (not as commonly defined, but here I mean 'the occasioning of another to do wrong'), in which case it would be prudent to remove those discussions and then unveil the board. Undoubtedly, we all have our flaws, yet to reveal all and confess all is to ask for forgiveness and trust.
A trust that many would love to extend to their fellow Smashers.
Yet now, sir, the PMDT is cold and may appear haughty to us.

 

[Strong Badam]

Making the PMDT discussion forum public is not possible. Its entire history over the course of nearly 5 years has been made under the pretext that discussion is held back there and only to be read by other Development Team members. Having the discussions behind closed doors allows us some liberties that we otherwise wouldn't be able to take. Personal information is there, there are heated discussions between otherwise friendly colleagues, we sometimes joke around and have some fun here and there. Sometimes we talk about some people who are not in the development team who are harming the public relations of the project (usually by spreading misinformation) and how best to approach the situation. There are even posts back there by dozens of people who are no longer a part of the development team; to make their posts public without their blessing would be disrespectful and unfair. It'd be a major breach of integrity.

Not only for those reasons, but allowing the PMDT discussion board to be public ruins any sense of hype for the next version. You'll instantly see what's going to happen before we would otherwise announce it. The hype of the next version is because there are things in the next version that people don't know will be in it. It's exciting to find out the day of release, or via an update on the website. This hype is what keeps the game alive and is one of the few pieces of enjoyment we get as a development team that works entirely without profit.

Sorry, but it's not going to happen.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Anything else, any want of secrecy, is imprudent and uncharitable. For if there is any issue with charity in the matter of the development of a video game then there is undoubtedly double dealing, back-talking, intentional vagueness, and generally peoples of poor character quality. Of course, there is the matter of 'scandal' (not as commonly defined, but here I mean 'the occasioning of another to do wrong'), in which case it would be prudent to remove those discussions and then unveil the board. Undoubtedly, we all have our flaws, yet to reveal all and confess all is to ask for forgiveness and trust.
A trust that many would love to extend to their fellow Smashers.
Yet now, sir, the PMDT is cold and may appear haughty to us.

I consider myself *extremely* generous in giving you a response that isn't "Shut up, you deluded self-important windbag."

Instead, I'm just going to say that if the PMDT appear cold, haughty or uncharitable to you after all the time and effort they have put into this mod and this community, for no pay, taking time away from their courses, their work and their lives for no incentive other than enjoyment of this game, your sense of entitlement is more than I previously believed was humanly possible. Criticize the PMDT for their mistakes, for to err is human. Don't presume to make demands you have no right to make.

 

[lil T]

so uhh you guys keep trying to add new stuff but the CP's have been ****ed for as long as I can remember, you should really get the game working before you start doing technical stuff like nerfing recoveries.

Don't get me wrong both are important, but to me fixing the CP air dodging off the stage is far more important than some OP recoveries.

... wat

 

[Jaedrik]

Making the PMDT discussion forum public is not possible. Its entire history over the course of nearly 5 years has been made under the pretext that discussion is held back there and only to be read by other Development Team members. Having the discussions behind closed doors allows us some liberties that we otherwise wouldn't be able to take. Personal information is there, there are heated discussions between otherwise friendly colleagues, we sometimes joke around and have some fun here and there. Sometimes we talk about some people who are not in the development team who are harming the public relations of the project (usually by spreading misinformation) and how best to approach the situation. There are even posts back there by dozens of people who are no longer a part of the development team; to make their posts public without their blessing would be disrespectful and unfair. It'd be a major breach of integrity.

Not only for those reasons, but allowing the PMDT discussion board to be public ruins any sense of hype for the next version. You'll instantly see what's going to happen before we would otherwise announce it. The hype of the next version is because there are things in the next version that people don't know will be in it. It's exciting to find out the day of release, or via an update on the website. This hype is what keeps the game alive and is one of the few pieces of enjoyment we get as a development team that works entirely without profit.

Sorry, but it's not going to happen.

Now, this is the sort of response I like to see. :D

The good of maintaining an integrity in accord with the original promise of the board is to be admired. Noble, aye, and moral.

Now I see you are right in that making the private discussions public is not possible, yet would I be mistaken in suggesting that the goals I set forth could be achieved with a balance discussion board?
Therefrom, if not at least balance discussion take place then could a grand summary of the discussion held in private be put forward, with point and counterpoint? I grant this would mean extra work on the dev team's part ala the 'dev blogs', but the minutia is left out of those. If you admit that balance is a hype feature, and releases can be timed to generate hype, then why cannot the details and in-depth reasoning also be published if we exclude the factor of time and extra work? My hope is that there is someone on the PMDT who could have that exclusively, someone who is willing and couldn't do much else. Whenever they could, they would release these 'summaries' as a more technical dev blog which reflects a more specific incarnation of the more general ones consumed by those who don't really care about the particulars. Things such as frame data, and how each of these frame changes flows from a stated design goal. Then each change, again, could be scrutinized by the community

I consider myself *extremely* generous in giving you a response that isn't "Shut up, you deluded self-important windbag."

Instead, I'm just going to say that if the PMDT appear cold, haughty or uncharitable to you after all the time and effort they have put into this mod and this community, for no pay, taking time away from their courses, their work and their lives for no incentive other than enjoyment of this game, your sense of entitlement is more than I previously believed was humanly possible. Criticize the PMDT for their mistakes, for to err is human. Don't presume to make demands you have no right to make.

I'm sorry. You misunderstand me. I pass no such judgement, I merely see what others might, and do, judge them as. For me, I love the PMDT, and I like their passing from principle to practice in their design of Project M. I believed and may still believe that the communication between the PMDT and the community at large can be improved, not so that these 'self-important windbags' be appeased. That is my goal, for a better balance. Because I really do believe that quite a few could and would give valuable input to balance changes or other little things if such be revealed.

 

[CORY]

so... you're asking for devblog updates?

 

[NinfanNanz]

I am content with the amount of information we get. I mean look at it, we learned the new ledge mechanics, the changes to Lucas and his recovery, the several animation changes occuring, all-star mode, debug mode, and the alt costume. That's quite a bit of information if you ask me. plus, Art Tesday is a great way to keep the hype going. I think the PMDT is doing a great job of keeping us informed. One question though.
I know this is not on the top of your list, but is the Turbo Mode contest video going to happen? Just wanna know if it has been dropped or not.

 

[MLGF]

I do love the blog updates, hope there's more of that to come.

Like, that Lucas blog was awesome. We got a great taste of what was to come and I hoped for more of that...
but it just kinda stopped

 

[Jaedrik]

so... you're asking for devblog updates?

Huh.

Yeah, that makes sense.
I was using the dev blogs as a counterpoint to SB's hype point in light of the new proposal.
However, what I want is slightly more subtle. All the balance changes would be enumerated and given reason therein, just as reason is no doubt given to them behind closed doors, to provide a backdrop for balance discussion and feedback amongst the non BRoomers.
I hope that's not too much work. It doesn't seem so to me.

Edit: But having the balance discussions in the open would cut out the middleman. It is preferable.

 

[Terotrous]

I realize that little character tweaks and such are subject to change, but I'd really love a new piece of news about a new character or a new B move (those things should be fairly set in stone) just to make the waiting a little more tolerable. Granted, I know we're not likely to get it.

 

[Star ☆]

Does anyone have any idea what the Dev version number was when 3.0 came out? It would be nice to see how far they've come since then.

 

[Shadic]

Around Revision 13600.

 

[Star ☆]

So there's been about 2000 changes since then. Wow. Good Work PMDT :D

 

[Darkevilprice995]

Can we expect any added stages in 3.5 which were not in 3.0?

 

[Sour Supreme]

What in the world is Product N

 

[666blaziken]

Around Revision 13600.

I know this is off topic, but I can't help but see that you main link in all of the smash games. Which one are you best with and which one do you think is the most well designed?

 

[SOJ]

Can we expect any added stages in 3.5 which were not in 3.0?

Yes